Poor Aftersales service from the industry

[TopCat1]

I have just collected my van from the selling (no longer my) dealer after it's 4th annual service. I cannot believe the total lack of care displayed by them. When I left it it was clean inside and out. On return it was filthy inside and with greasy hand marks on the wheel arch, additionally the fridge door had a broken trim. The dealer denies the damage was anything to do with him but stated that his 'technician' did notice a crack in the fridge trim ( yea right!). No explination though as to how the broken part was on the carpet near the fridge igniter extension button which was also on the floor! Just a bill for £335.66p
In the past I have used this dealer for warranty repairs (as we customers are forced to do) and on every occassion there has been poor work quality that I have had to get rectified. Absolutely no quality control at all. When I pointed this out to the Service manager he just shrugs his shoulders. Needless to say I will not be returning to this near Oxford Bailey dealer for service or to buy my next van even if he is the closest to my home in Beds.
How long is it going to be before the caravan industry treats us with the same respect as the motor industry does? When my car is serviced it is returned pristine, fully valeted and both I and my property are treated with consideration and respect. Heavens, the van industry sure has a long way to go before it comes even close to the motor industry with warranties, service and customer care! Mobile service for me in the future I think!

 

[starlightdj]

Hi Top Cat, sorry to hear of the service you have received, it certainly sound unacceptable, however I think it is your specific dealer to blame rather than the caravan industry in general.

We have our twin axle serviced each year in Chorley, Costs circa £240 and always comes back better than it went in ie roof wash, alloys cleaned as well as an overall wash. It always seems a pity to have to tow it again, for it to get traffic grime on it.

I would certainly wright to th Owner / Directors of the business stating your greivances and asking for a full written explanation, At least it might make them sit up and think of the potential business they are loosing.

Cheers
John

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Top Cat
That's not good enough at all.

The parent company , I think I know who you are talking about, is based on the outskirts of Swindon and has a fine reputation for quality and after sales service. May I suggest you write to the owner , CEO, who built up the company from nothing many years ago. He and his son still run a hands on operation. His surname begins with an "H".
BTW you seem to have been charged quite a lot for a service. My TA at Chipping Sodbury cost a tad over £200.00

 

[ProfJohnL]

I wholey agree with starlight on this matter.

But I question a comment you make in your post:-

"In the past I have used this dealer for warranty repairs (as we customers are forced to do)"

It is true the seller is responsibly for all warranty work, as the warranty is automatically established when you buy any goods, and it is enshrined in the Sale of Goods Acts (SoGA).

But it is usually the case for caravans that you also have a total separate manufacturers Guarantee, which incidentally can never usurp your legal rights under SoGA.

In many ways your SoGA warranty and the Manufactures Guarantee may appear to offer similar remedies when things go wrong. You have an automatic right to have warranty type repairs carried out by the seller where the fault has its origins at the time of sale. The seller cannot avoid this responsibility.

However where you also have a manufacturers guarantee, subject to its terms and conditions you may be able to have most faults repaired under guarantee (not warranty) by any dealer who is signed up to the manufactures scheme.

There are occasions where other dealers may refuse to do warranty work where you will then need to get the seller to do the work.

Generally in the caravan trade most warranty type work can be carried out by other assigned dealers. so you are not entirely tied to the seller.

It is a real shame and disgrace when sellers seem to show such disregard towards their customers who after all keep them in business.

 

[hortimech]

It is true the seller is responsibly for all warranty work, as the warranty is automatically established when you buy any goods, and it is enshrined in the Sale of Goods Acts (SoGA).

But it is usually the case for caravans that you also have a total separate manufacturers Guarantee, which incidentally can never usurp your legal rights under SoGA.

Warranties and Guarantee's are the same thing and neither have anything to do with the Sale of Goods act, they can come from either the dealer, manufacturer, or both but cannot replace your statutory rights. If something goes wrong early on, your first port of call is with the selling dealer.
Why, caravan makers insist that you take a caravan back to the suppling dealer for repairs under their warranty terms, I do not understand. It is very easy for a manufacturer to make it a condition of being a retailer of their product, that any warranty work is undertaken, this is what happens with the car, motorcycle, lawnmower, etc industry.

 

[Martin24]

My current and previous caravan have NEVER been returned to the dealer for warranty work. My local service chap does this for us and deals directly with Coachman over any issues that arise. He, they and the dealer we use have no issue with this arrangement and it saves me a journey in excess of an hour to get to the dealer. We have a good relationship with an excellent dealer over in the west of the county who knew when we bought the van they would next see it, in immaculate condition when we next change. The van is of course going back to the factory in a couple of weeks for damp issues to be sorted, again serviced by my local chap and he then spoke to Coachman who contacted me to arrange a suitable time to take it into the factory. All very simple and works very well.

 

[Surfer]

Why are you patying so much for a service? Did you request additional items to be repair or serviced like the fridge or gas fire. Our dealer charges £250 for a twin axle.

 

[Rodger Dodger]

Oh Great, guess who's van is having it's first service soon there?
Will just keep an eye out and see what happens.

 

[woodsieboy]

We have genaerally been satisfied with the after service we have received from various dealers during our time caravanning.With regards to a dealer near Swindon we did buy 1 caravan from them and they exaimined our trade in and announced it was damp and reduced the PX value, fair enough, until we took our 'new to us van' that we had bought from them away,first time out in the rain water ran down the inside of the roof lockers. They fixed it under their warranty and the van was OK until we sold it but OH will not allow me to buy even a tent peg from them.If we are not satisfied with any product or service,we find another supplier. Like Dusty Dog we used to use C Sodbury and once our warranty ran out we switched to a mobile service engineer who has proved to be very good. I don't have to drag the van back to the dealers and he has come out to fix the odd item on our current van too.Perhaps it is because he is a one man band that he takes more of an interest, he must be doing something right because it normally takes 4-5 weeks to get an appointment for a service.My advice for Top Cat is to ask other local caravanners to see who they use,and find someone else to do the work.

 

[waffler]

Martin24 talks about using his local mobile and Coachman sort out the payment. the clue here is teh word Coachman. I own one and when I asked about warranty work I had a similar reply. Having had other makes of van Coachman seem to the only ones to do that. I have talked to a number of dealers about warranty work and the issue seems to be payment. Some manufacturers only pay a low rate for warranty work. One manufacturer doesn't pay at all but takes the cost off the final invoice for the year. All this makes it hard for teh customer. The answer lies with all of us- don't buy vans from dealers who won't let you go where you want and don't buy from manufacturers who don't have a first class warranty system.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello

The last few replies highlight the point I made earlier about the use of words, and the actual difference between warranty and guarantee.

Only the seller can actually do work under "warranty" that arises from the customers rights under SoGA. But some manufactures will allow other appointed dealers to undertake work that should be by rights be the sellers responsibility. Such arrangements are done under the manufactures guarantee scheme.

It is not uncommon for manufactures to pay low hourly rates for guarantee work, but the dealership usually gains access to other benefits.

The whole issue of caravan warranty or guarantee would be vastly reduced if manufactures paid more attention to quality control and assurance in the first place.

 

[Dustydog]

The whole issue of caravan warranty or guarantee would be vastly reduced if manufactures paid more attention to quality control and assurance in the first place.

Spot on Prof.

If I had a pound every time we say this I'd be a rich man.

Why can't the manufacturers listen to their customers ?

There also seems a reticence on the part of the caravan press, all of them , to print anything about QA & QC.

 

[hortimech]

The last few replies highlight the point I made earlier about the use of words, and the actual difference between warranty and guarantee.

I will say it again, just in case you missed it prof.

There is no difference between warranty and guarantee.

What you are talking about is the difference between warranty/guarantee repairs and faults that occur within a short period of purchase which are covered by the SoGa. Warranties/guarantees are on top of your statutory rights and can never replace them, but if something goes faulty within a short period of purchase (and you haven't caused it) then your first port of call is the seller.
If you do not want to take your new caravan back to a particular seller for SogA faults, then don't buy from that seller, because they are the only people who have to fix it for free. Warranty repairs are different, you should be able to take your caravan to whichever dealer you want (provided they have the relevant dealership), but, as far as I can see, the caravan industry has not caught up with the rest of the world.
If your new caravan does develop a genuine fault within a short time of purchase, take it back and tell them it has developed a fault, never mention the words 'warranty' or 'guarantee', they have nothing to do with it.

 

[Dustydog]

The last few replies highlight the point I made earlier about the use of words, and the actual difference between warranty and guarantee.

I will say it again, just in case you missed it prof.

There is no difference between warranty and guarantee.

Sorry to say Hortimech in English Law there is a big difference between a Warranty and a Guarantee.
For the sake of Newbies or those who find your statement confusing may I suggest they see this link or any other legal Web site and read for themselves how and why the two are NOT the same.
http://www.access-legal.co.uk/free-legal-guides/whats-the-difference-between-a-guarantee-and-a-warranty-1314.htm

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Hortimech,

Yes I did read your postings, and I did not respond because it seems some people are intent on taking things to a antagonistic personal level which is unbecoming on a forum like this.

I continue to disagree with your implication there is no difference between warranties and guarantees, based on past experience a couple of decades ago where we received some training in such matters as part of a customer service operation, there are rather specific and important differences.

Now Dustydog has found a very interesting web page which confirms there is a difference, BUT it's detail explanation of warranty is different to the one I received. Being more recent I actually find it more appropriate, and will change any further comments I make accordingly.

Incidentally we entirely agree that product failures that arise from faults prior to or very soon after purchase are the remit of the seller under SoGA. But in practice many manufacturers guarantees allow for many such faults to be handled at any associated dealers, though it is important for the customer to understand that legal rights only rest with the seller, and not with other dealers for the same make of product.

 

[hortimech]

Hi Prof,
Ok, if you are splitting hairs, warranties and guarantees are different. guarantees are from (generally) the manufacturer, warranties are an insurance policy. Neither have anything to do with the SoGa.

You should never use the term 'warranty' when discussing a repair under the terms of the SoGa, this is because, as I said, the SoGa has nothing to do with warranty.

Would it help if I told you, one of my past job titles was 'Warranty Manager'?

 

[Parksy]

Unfortunately this thread seems to have drifted off topic and is heading for the rocks.
The OP was complaining about poor service from a caravan dealer and damage allegedly done which has been denied by the service manager concerned.
The thread is not about guarantees, warranties or the sale of goods act and it's certainly not about silly points scoring between forum members.

For the benefit of anyone confused as a result forum arguments:
A guarantee adds to consumer rights.
A warranty is seen as an extended guarantee but is not always offered. When a warranty is in place it does not reduce rights under consumer law. See Dustydog's link.
The OP has not mentioned either guarantees or warranties, he was complaining about shoddy workmanship and a slap dash attitude from the service manager.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Parksy

A nicely succinct analysis of Guarantees and Warranties. And it os relevant as the OP did imply there were issues related to warranty, "In the past I have used this dealer for warranty repairs (as we customers are forced to do)"

It was important to point out that the caravan manufactures guarantee can allow a customer to have certain repairs carried out by other subscribing dealers. This usually means a customer is not tied to the seller if the work is covered by the guarantee, a fact the OP did not seem to be aware of.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Prof,

Would it help if I told you, one of my past job titles was 'Warranty Manager'?

As it's the Jubilee may I say

"We're not impressed".

 

[Surfer]

Either way warranties and guarantees are meaningless bits of garbage designed to impress the illiterate. What counts is the Sale of Goods Act end of story!

 

[Parksy]

The Sale of Goods Act is an act of Parliament that enshrines basic consumer rights into UK law and used correctly there's no doubt that it can be a powerful piece of legislation.
The statement that guarantees and warranties are 'meaningless bits of garbage' is rather simplistic and not correct.
Guarantees and warranties are not designed or intended to replace the consumers statutory rights as enshrined in the Sale of Goods Act, they are in addition to and designed to supplement these rights.
Without warranties and / or guarantees the consumer could theoretically be forced to engage the services of a professional legal adviser or representative even for the simplest of repairs or remedial work which is instead covered under guarantee or warranty.
The OP however was complaining about poor customer service rather than guarantees or warranties, and in cases where routine servicing has been paid for but not carried out the Sale of Goods Act is the best recourse if all else fails.

 

[TopCat1]

Thanks Parksy, for reminding people of my original topic. I myself was Group Warranty Manager for the largest vehicle importer in the UK for many years until my retirement so I am not ignorant regarding warranties. My comment was regarding dealer aftersales service which is clearly a source of grievence to many vanners.
Similarly, however, it seems is the subject relating to warranties. Irrespective of the name 'guarantee or warranty' (there is a difference by the way) there is much ill feeling withing the vanning community regarding these restrictions in respect of dealer/seller linkage. The only people who can sort this out are the manufacturers. They must and should take the lead by insisting that if you, as a retailer, wish to sell their product then you must offer rectification of the product on behalf of the customer / manufcturer irrespective of the point of sale.
Similarly, they should also take responsibility for the service standards of their agents and not pass the buck!
Only when this occurrs will they offer a service anywhere near approacing the motor industry.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Top Cat

I can totally agree that the current general state of affairs in the caravan industry is miles behind the car and some other consumer product industries.

There are some commentators who will say deficiencies are down to the difference in scale. Sadly that is a poor excuse, and in reality if the manufactures listened more to customers they could become more focused and allow the manufactures to actually meet customer needs and expectations (the two being subtly different). I have worked with a number of quite well known companies in a consultation capacity developing (ISO 9000 series of model standards)management systems where CF becomes the underlying principal of operation, and in virtually every case the mid to long term benefits justify the short term pain and costs if implementation.

But its not quite as bad as you seem to suggest, as has been expressed in previous answers, in most cases a customer can arrange to have what would have been point of sale issues resolved by other dealers in the network under the manufacture guarantee, but that is dependant on the specific terms of the manufactures guarantee terms and conditions.

What is also lacking is the consistency of approach across the dealerships toward customer relations. This is where the NCC approved workshop scheme should play a part, and most manufacture do allow warranty/guarantee work to be carried out by participating members but always check your guarantee terms and conditions before having work carried out.

There is still much scope for improvement and clarification.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Totally agree, but most of the problems stem from poor working methods at the first stages of construction.
I refer to my posts of a couple of years ago, where Bailey were featured on utube, the working practices of there employees in my opinion was totally unacceptable and little wonder we have problems further down the line and in subsequent years.

Allan.

 

[Parksy]

We bought our Abbey 620 new from a well known and very long established dealership and we couldn't fault the sales team, they were professional, polite, eager to do business and we secured a very good deal.
The caravan is a twin axle model and this dealers charged £50 per hour for servicing. This meant that they were getting over £200 for a mornings work.

We were very disappointed with the standards of service and the attitude of service dept staff, the receptionist appeared to be from Eastern Europe and she was rude and dismissive, the caravan was left with grubby fingermarks on various surfaces and the worst thing was that nothing had been left as it was found.
All of the taps were left on, gas stop valves were turned off so that apliances wouldn't work, things had been taken out of the front drawers and left on the worktop and we only found out that these valves had been turned off when the cooker and the gas fire wouldn't work after we'd left.
We'd had problems with the electric blow air heating, it turned out that some packaging had been left inside from the pdi (so we were told) and when I tried to open the omnivent it was stuck firmly down.
I returned the caravan to find out what had happened to the omnivent and it would appear that their so-called 'service engineer' had tightened the closing handle so much that the hatch had dug in to some excess mastic and become stuck.
What realy made me blow my top was when, after returning the caravan because I didn't know if the catch had ben broken, the service manager blithely advised me to 'get a ladder, get the mrs to turn the handle inside while I tugged the hatch open from the roof'
At which point I finaly exploded and informed the idiot through clenched teeth that I'd just paid them nearly £250 to service my caravan and they'd better bloody well sort it out there and then!!!
Needless to say that we no longer travel the 100 miles from home to get the caravan serviced by these morons while we are on holiday in the South West, we now use an approved moblile service engineer who is half the price and twice as good as the misfits employed by that particular dealership.