Power in cold weather

Page 2 - Passionate about caravans & motorhome? Join our community to share that passion with a global audience!
Nov 11, 2009
20,395
6,263
50,935
Visit site
That doesn't address the fundamental issue that (currently) there are occasions, especially heavy overcast windless days, where renewables just cannot deliver! I for one cannot see any way those shortcomings can be overcome as we cannot control tge weather.
You are right but to correct that isn’t a short term remedy even for recommissioning coal stations, building extended storage, nuclear, tidal or even increased imports of natural gas. We are paying the penalty for past low energy costs and lack of strategic investment.
 
Nov 11, 2009
20,395
6,263
50,935
Visit site
Not if you have a power failure also which happens in rural areas. We do have a large gas fire in the lounge area for emergency use, but can only run it for 20-30 minutes as do not want to suffer from CO poisoning.
My gas boiler isn’t that great if we loose electrical power. My comment related to a system to boost the air source heat pump circulating water temperature on very cold days.
 
Jul 18, 2017
12,225
3,430
32,935
Visit site
My gas boiler isn’t that great if we loose electrical power. My comment related to a system to boost the air source heat pump circulating water temperature on very cold days.
The house where the daughter is staying has oil fired heating however I think they still need electric to power it on? I don't think they have any back up heating as this is their first winter in the UK.
 
Nov 30, 2022
871
738
1,135
Visit site
All central heating systems require electricity, either to operate the controls, or to pump hot water/hot air around, or both.
An open grate, a gas fire or log/multi fuel burner or are pretty much the only ones where no 'leccy is needed. There are a few others I am sure so don't bother telling me I have missed something.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Hutch
Mar 14, 2005
17,694
3,129
50,935
Visit site
However if a solar panel is covered in snow it probably will not produce anything? There is talk of temperatures dropping below 10C and at more than -11C apparently air source heating will not work? Hopefully that will never happen.
A quick google search about the lowest ambient temperature for air source systems reveals the majority claim to still proved a COP of greater than 1 down to -18 to -22C.

You have well documented your problems in this forum and it points to a poorly designed system installed at your property.
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,694
3,129
50,935
Visit site
As for everyone plugging their EV's back into the grid to supply others that's all well and good but...........
How many EV's will need to be provide any significant amount of power? Are they actually going to do that as maybe they will be at work when there is a need for them to feed back into the grid, or it will rob them of the ability to either actually use their car (because its plugged in) or it will deprive them of range for the next time they wish to use it.

Things are never as simple as they first seem are they??

I agree the concept of car to load or grid needs careful commissioning, but it is certainly viable concept, and I know from my son who works for a major UK energy supplier, that a lot of work is being done to enable Car to Grid to be introduced.

The industry believes it is more than capable of coping with peak network load demands comfortably, and it wouldn't need every car to plugged in at the same time, but at least 25% drivers do not use their cars at peak times.

Putting it another way, the battery capacity of most pure EV's would be more than enough to provide the total electrical power needs of their owners house for one possibly two full days!
 
Jul 23, 2021
679
598
2,135
Visit site
As for everyone plugging their EV's back into the grid to supply others that's all well and good but...........
How many EV's will need to be provide any significant amount of power? Are they actually going to do that as maybe they will be at work when there is a need for them to feed back into the grid, or it will rob them of the ability to either actually use their car (because its plugged in) or it will deprive them of range for the next time they wish to use it.

Things are never as simple as they first seem are they??

The "average" house uses about 900w. A single car can provide up to 7.2kW with the right HW, so sufficient to run close to 8 houses, and running 8 houses for an hour would use arround 21 miles of range, from perhaps 250 available. VW have confirmed that all of their cars will have V2G capability built in from the go. 1m cars plugged in would generate 7GW, or more than 1/5th of our peak usage.

Users will get to choose how they participate, the maximum discharge rate, the minimum amount of charge to be left over. If you need to use your car while it's discharging, you just press stop, get in and go. It's worth noting that the Octopus run "turn down" grid support scheme is generating significant amounts of spare power. Enough to power Leicester.
 
  • Like
Reactions: otherclive
Nov 11, 2009
20,395
6,263
50,935
Visit site
The "average" house uses about 900w. A single car can provide up to 7.2kW with the right HW, so sufficient to run close to 8 houses, and running 8 houses for an hour would use arround 21 miles of range, from perhaps 250 available. VW have confirmed that all of their cars will have V2G capability built in from the go. 1m cars plugged in would generate 7GW, or more than 1/5th of our peak usage.

Users will get to choose how they participate, the maximum discharge rate, the minimum amount of charge to be left over. If you need to use your car while it's discharging, you just press stop, get in and go. It's worth noting that the Octopus run "turn down" grid support scheme is generating significant amounts of spare power. Enough to power Leicester.
Thank you. The Octopus scheme is an excellent proof of concept. One thing puzzles me, if your normal usage pattern sees low electrical power consumption say between 1730 and 1830, what do you have to do to qualify for the payment. Switching off a couple of 5 watt lights and taking the dog for a walk contributes very little compared to cooking supper on an electric cooker.
 
Jul 18, 2017
12,225
3,430
32,935
Visit site
A quick google search about the lowest ambient temperature for air source systems reveals the majority claim to still proved a COP of greater than 1 down to -18 to -22C.

You have well documented your problems in this forum and it points to a poorly designed system installed at your property.
Ours is over 10 years old so maybe newer ones can cope with lower temperatures?
 
Jul 18, 2017
12,225
3,430
32,935
Visit site
The "average" house uses about 900w. A single car can provide up to 7.2kW with the right HW, so sufficient to run close to 8 houses, and running 8 houses for an hour would use arround 21 miles of range, from perhaps 250 available. VW have confirmed that all of their cars will have V2G capability built in from the go. 1m cars plugged in would generate 7GW, or more than 1/5th of our peak usage.
At present we are using approximately an average of 38kwh a day and that is with heating switched down to 17C between 10pm and 6am and down to 18C between 9am and 4pm. Rest of the time it is at 20C. Over the year we use approximately 7500kwh. We do not have gas so power failures in winter are a big concern!
 
Jan 3, 2012
9,641
2,069
30,935
Visit site
The "average" house uses about 900w. A single car can provide up to 7.2kW with the right HW, so sufficient to run close to 8 houses, and running 8 houses for an hour would use arround 21 miles of range, from perhaps 250 available. VW have confirmed that all of their cars will have V2G capability built in from the go. 1m cars plugged in would generate 7GW, or more than 1/5th of our peak usage.

Users will get to choose how they participate, the maximum discharge rate, the minimum amount of charge to be left over. If you need to use your car while it's discharging, you just press stop, get in and go. It's worth noting that the Octopus run "turn down" grid support scheme is generating significant amounts of spare power. Enough to power Leicester.
So far we are in the saving sessions only missed one up to now earned £20 last night was a 2hrs we opt in we had everything we can put off .
Like what someone says we own a electric cooker but might upgrade it in the January sales to gas .
 
Nov 6, 2005
7,397
2,086
25,935
Visit site
So far we are in the saving sessions only missed one up to now earned £20 last night was a 2hrs we opt in we had everything we can put off .
Like what someone says we own a electric cooker but might upgrade it in the January sales to gas .
Given the present concerns about the environment, changing an electric cooker for a gas cooker is a retrograde step.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tobes and Hutch
Jul 23, 2021
679
598
2,135
Visit site
Thank you. The Octopus scheme is an excellent proof of concept. One thing puzzles me, if your normal usage pattern sees low electrical power consumption say between 1730 and 1830, what do you have to do to qualify for the payment. Switching off a couple of 5 watt lights and taking the dog for a walk contributes very little compared to cooking supper on an electric cooker.
This is indeed a gap. Our usual usage between 04:30 and 00:30 the next day is zero (or so close to 0 as makes no difference). We "participate" in that I sign up, and try to make sure that we have no load spikes that would take us over our inverter threshold. A household that "normaly" consumes say 3kWh in that period, and reduces to 1kWh sees a decent payment as the reduction is sound (and deserves that payment). But for users who have moved all their usage to the low cost (and low demand) window there is no support from the turn down program.
Having said that, I am not complaining - I am already benefiting from my electricity costs being 7.5p / kWh instead of 30p / kWh.
(Although right now my smart meter is not uploading data - and its possible I will be charged full rate for everything since Nov 20th).
 
Nov 11, 2009
20,395
6,263
50,935
Visit site
This is indeed a gap. Our usual usage between 04:30 and 00:30 the next day is zero (or so close to 0 as makes no difference). We "participate" in that I sign up, and try to make sure that we have no load spikes that would take us over our inverter threshold. A household that "normaly" consumes say 3kWh in that period, and reduces to 1kWh sees a decent payment as the reduction is sound (and deserves that payment). But for users who have moved all their usage to the low cost (and low demand) window there is no support from the turn down program.
Having said that, I am not complaining - I am already benefiting from my electricity costs being 7.5p / kWh instead of 30p / kWh.
(Although right now my smart meter is not uploading data - and its possible I will be charged full rate for everything since Nov 20th).
Thanks I suspected as much, as any supplier isn't going to pay you for something that isn't there. We are fortunate in having a contract from April 2021 to April 2023 so the rates aren't anywhere near todays rates. even so we haven't changed our approach, although my grandson now WFH, our home so 0800-1700 heating bill has jumped up., as we tend to only have heating on until early-mid afternoon, using a gas fire in the lounge if required.
 
Last edited:

Sam Vimes

Moderator
Sep 7, 2020
1,628
1,188
5,935
Visit site
You can buy Battery Banks which can be charged from solar panels to store the energy but these are not cheap. Out local community hall is going through an investigation of solar panels and I get the odd question put to me.

https://www.solarguide.co.uk/solar-batteries#/

Rectently I was asked about the viability of using a Battery Bank to power the heating in winter in the event of a power cut. The hall has a 7.5Kw air source heater and during the winter when the SCOP is low the load on a Battery Bank could well be 7.5Kw. So to keep this running for just an hour would require a Battery Bank that's going to cost a few thousand pounds just for a hour or possiby two. Then of course the re-charge time in winter on Skye would be lengthy when we only get just over 6 hours of somewhat dubious daytime.

Of course the Solar Panels would supplement the energy source at other times, adding to the green credentials of the hall.

Since the scheme is going to be funded by grant, money may not be a problem except that I would expect any organisation funding this may well want to see what the return on investment would be to know their money is being spent wisely.

On a slightly different note: Conventional gas/oil boilers have relatively low electical power requirements for the controls. Its conceivable to power these from a leisure battery and inverter. You just have to get someone who knows what they're doing to wire this in as an option.

Some people here have small generators just in case a lengthy power cut occurs.
 
Jul 23, 2021
679
598
2,135
Visit site
You can buy Battery Banks which can be charged from solar panels to store the energy but these are not cheap. Out local community hall is going through an investigation of solar panels and I get the odd question put to me.

https://www.solarguide.co.uk/solar-batteries#/

Rectently I was asked about the viability of using a Battery Bank to power the heating in winter in the event of a power cut. The hall has a 7.5Kw air source heater and during the winter when the SCOP is low the load on a Battery Bank could well be 7.5Kw. So to keep this running for just an hour would require a Battery Bank that's going to cost a few thousand pounds just for a hour or possiby two. Then of course the re-charge time in winter on Skye would be lengthy when we only get just over 6 hours of somewhat dubious daytime.

Of course the Solar Panels would supplement the energy source at other times, adding to the green credentials of the hall.

Since the scheme is going to be funded by grant, money may not be a problem except that I would expect any organisation funding this may well want to see what the return on investment would be to know their money is being spent wisely.

On a slightly different note: Conventional gas/oil boilers have relatively low electical power requirements for the controls. Its conceivable to power these from a leisure battery and inverter. You just have to get someone who knows what they're doing to wire this in as an option.

Some people here have small generators just in case a lengthy power cut occurs.
I have one such battery bank. 16kWh of storage with 6kW of inverter capability. I have 3.12kWp of solar PV spit 50/50 east west. In summer the solar gives us some charging, but in winter barely any. But I can charge my battery from cheap electricity over night for use in the day. A neighbour has 4kWp solar south facing and is able to fully charge his battery on a sunny day (like the weather last week).
My system CAN be configured for EPS (emergency power supply) using an auto or manual transfer switch but I have not done so due to the rarity of power cuts where I am. With a hybrid inverter system, the solar can continue powering the load and charging the batteries during a power cut.
With an AC coupled system, that not possible with my set up.
Installing PV and battery together is 0 rate VAT at teh moment (at least in England - may be different in Scotland).
 
Jan 3, 2012
9,641
2,069
30,935
Visit site
Given the present concerns about the environment, changing an electric cooker for a gas cooker is a retrograde step.
With all the present issues we have to face including raise in prices for services, we must assess all these issues. Our present circumstances [as all pensioners] is a reflection of this and so our effect on the environment would be minimal compared with a family. However I so understand your concerns and our decision will be a reflection of all these we take into consideration.
 

Sam Vimes

Moderator
Sep 7, 2020
1,628
1,188
5,935
Visit site
While a good many people are concerned about climate change and other environmental factors a lot of steps that could be taken to improve matters are beyond the financial reach of many people.

So its a question of "cutting one's coat according to the cloth". We can still be conscious of our actions and do the best we can within our means to limit the impact.

More and more these days I've had to abandon some of my principles in this respect.
 
Nov 16, 2015
10,554
2,882
40,935
Visit site
Recently I have seen lots of Advertisements quoting, install Solar panels for free, with a government grant, or even a new boiler I'df it's over 10 years old, ( ours is 39 years old) I fill out the questionnaire, and the reply is, you are earning too much on your pension,or have too much savings.
But my council tax still goes up.
You are encouraged to save for your retirement, then try and get a grant to help the environment, Oh sorry you will have to pay up as you don't claim any benefits
 

Sam Vimes

Moderator
Sep 7, 2020
1,628
1,188
5,935
Visit site
Given the present concerns about the environment, changing an electric cooker for a gas cooker is a retrograde step.
A somewhat 'tongue in cheek' thought.

If everyone switched to gas for heating or cooking instead of electricity then not as much gas would be used to generate the electricity in the first place. Does it balance out?
 
  • Like
Reactions: otherclive
Nov 11, 2009
20,395
6,263
50,935
Visit site
While a good many people are concerned about climate change and other environmental factors a lot of steps that could be taken to improve matters are beyond the financial reach of many people.

So its a question of "cutting one's coat according to the cloth". We can still be conscious of our actions and do the best we can within our means to limit the impact.

More and more these days I've had to abandon some of my principles in this respect.
Back as a kid my father installed central heating and even then was conscious of energy costs and installed his own secondary glazing. I took my cue from him and even as students we installed either secondary glazing or that plastic film that you tensioned with a hair dryer. When we bought our first house in 1973 up went the secondary glazing and loft insulation was installed. We were all electric central heating and cooking; sheer delight minimal if any maintenance. That ethos has continued through all of our subsequent houses. Maximum loft insulation, cavity wall if there was a cavity, and secondary or full double glazing and well insulated doors.

In this house we moved in in Spring 2019 and out went the coal fire, replaced with gas, and all doors and windows replaced. Just before we moved in the previous owners had the loft fully insulated and cavity insulating beads installed. We updated the heating system with new radiators, TRVs and a better portable thermostat. One aspect where our principles conflicted was the decision last year to get rid of a large range with three electric ovens. We preferred cooking on gas so bought a new cooker all gas, and the savings in electric compared to the old range will effectively pay for the cooker inside its five year warranty. Do I feel guilty not in the slightest as the amount of gas used for cooking is minimal compared to the boiler consumption,and combined over our lives with a positive approach to energy efficiencies on cost and comfort grounds.

In our daughters house we have pretty well carried through our own approach, she has triple glazing, full loft insulation, and a new boiler was installed free for her as she is on working tax credits, with a low income. She graduates next February and will lose her tax credits when she gets her full nursing post. So it would then look as if she would not be eligible for a new boiler unless HMG announce a scheme in the meantime. But as hers is only 8 years old I wouldn’t plan to replace it unless it becomes BER. But it would be a boiler going in, not an air source heat pump. But if in the meantime the Government tighten up the regulations on gas boilers as replacements I would just have one fitted for her. If it then lasts 15 years the world will be a different place and she may then be going all electric.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Sam Vimes and Hutch
Mar 14, 2005
17,694
3,129
50,935
Visit site
When most people cook on gas they set the flaes to lick up sides of the pan, that actually wastes a lot energy as a very large proportion of the heat in the flame is wasted as flue gasses. Electric rings and induction hobs are generally far more efficient.
 
Nov 11, 2009
20,395
6,263
50,935
Visit site
When most people cook on gas they set the flaes to lick up sides of the pan, that actually wastes a lot energy as a very large proportion of the heat in the flame is wasted as flue gasses. Electric rings and induction hobs are generally far more efficient.
That’s a very profound statement on how people use gas hobs. What evidence do you have to support
“ most……”. If nothing else you burn your hand when removing the pan from the hob. What about those that still have older style electric rings where it’s just as easy to have the heated ring outside the perimeter of the saucepan?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hutch and Buckman

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts