NigelHutson said:
That's good to know Nigel as I've been driving buses for 11 years now and I've had no complaints yet unless I'm running a bit late !! B)
That's good to know Nigel as I've been driving buses for 11 years now and I've had no complaints yet unless I'm running a bit late !! B)
As regards opinions having bought a car, I have to say that I would be honest enough to admit to buying a lemon. I am all for giving praise as and when its due, but as Im sure Parksy will verify, with me it works both ways. If i feel let down by something I have purchased, it gets said.
Thingy said:
Same here , I have given praise to my Kuga because I think its a good car for towing , I've had no problems with it in the last 3 years that we have been touring with it - if it was crap I would have said so and probably have a different towing car by now , simple as that , I have no fancy gadget lane control stuff on the car , no ATC on caravan so it's purely my driving capabilities so I know the car is good - and so am I B)
Thingy said:
On that, we’re singing from the same hymn sheet, but there are many that wouldn’t (several old work colleagues for a start).
As with many things in life, there isn’t s definitive answer, but personally, I’d do some research before buying something as big and expensive as a car/caravan - read up about it, and listen to what others might have to say, and then test it for myself. Sadly, there aren’t many car dealers that will let you try towing before you buy (mine did!), so it pays to explore all avenues before making a decision. However, I have been VERY fortunate in taking part in the TCA, and to that end, there are some cars that do seem to be a common sight on caravan sites, but I personally wouldn’t touch some of them with a barge pole. But that is MY opinion (as is David Motton’s - who, having known him for a good number of years, I do very much respect his opinion - in the magazine). Whether you believe me or not, David does know what he’s doing.
Fair points and though i have little trust in journalists of any type, i dont know the chap and im not aiming this at his integrity.
What i am trying to get at is that i dont feel these sort of tests are fit for purpose.
When i got my Shogun, if that sort of manouver had been necessary on day one, getting out of it would be pot luck. Now, two Shoguns on and six years with them, i feel that i personally would have enough knowledge of the vehicle to handle the situation with more confidence. When the author has six years daily experience in the car hes writing about, i would give the piece more credence.
What i am trying to get at is that i dont feel these sort of tests are fit for purpose.
When i got my Shogun, if that sort of manouver had been necessary on day one, getting out of it would be pot luck. Now, two Shoguns on and six years with them, i feel that i personally would have enough knowledge of the vehicle to handle the situation with more confidence. When the author has six years daily experience in the car hes writing about, i would give the piece more credence.
Thingy said:
I understand your point but how can you say that because you’ve owned Shoguns for a while that you would know how the outfit would respond if you had to carry out a sudden lane change. I know that defensive driving can help a lot in reducing the likelihood of difficult situations arising but unless anyone has trained or perhaps been involved in such a manoeuvre they really cannot judge how their outfit will end up. And unlike emergency braking “training” a lane change is s different beast altogether
Well OC, i wouldnt. But i would have more of a feel for the vehicle and some inkling as to its perculiarities.
Like an old screwdriver feels comfy in your hand. A borrowed one feels odd.
Like an old screwdriver feels comfy in your hand. A borrowed one feels odd.
There is a danger of assuming that such specific tests are indeed completely comparable, The fact is if you were to conduct the same test with the same outfit in the same place but at different times, there can be a whole host of other variables such as temperature, humidity or more obviously if its been sooner after rain or in stronger winds of different directions, then its more than likely the results will be different.
Other things such as if the driver or tyres are changed it can make a significant difference - you only have to look at the relative performance of team mates in F1 where the driver is often the only difference between the two cars.
So review testing should not be taken as an absolute definition of a vehicles capabilities.
Other things such as if the driver or tyres are changed it can make a significant difference - you only have to look at the relative performance of team mates in F1 where the driver is often the only difference between the two cars.
So review testing should not be taken as an absolute definition of a vehicles capabilities.
Poor old Motty. He's trying his best to do the impossible but getting slated when he can't quite manage it.
Any form of car testing is an inexact process, based usually on one reviewer's opinion, which in turn is based on his or her opinions formed on the day and in the conditions that he or she happened to drive it.
For a prime example of how these can vary, look no further than the 'Readers test drive the new Hyundai Santa Fe' blog that appears elsewhere on this website. Most people praised the car for its stability, and yet when I drove it - no differently and certainly no more aggressively to how I normally drive whilst towing, I hasten to add - the caravan got into possibly the worst snake I have ever experienced.
Perhaps this was an 'against all odds' event brought on by a sudden gust of wind that just happened to occur at the same time that I was overtaking a lorry, I don't know. But I'm afraid I don't care if 100 other people thought the car was stable whilst towing; I didn't. The end.
This certainly isn't the first time that my opinion has differed from others'. Based on a test drive last year, there's no way I'd consider spending my hard-earned on the current Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, yet I see hundreds of the damn things. I thought the 2011 Honda Insight was absolutely the worst modern car that I had ever driven, and yet most motoring magazines at the time rated it four stars. And the 2000 Skoda Fabia won What Car magazine's car of the year, which only makes me wonder how on earth they failed to notice that the gear ratios were way, way too close. Driving on the motorway in 5th meant the engine was doing over 3500rpm and unpleasantly loud enough to cause a headache. And off the motorway, the car could be driven quite happily only using 1st, 3rd and 5th gears. I managed this for about 8 miles including town centre traffic, A roads and roundabouts.
None of this is such a problem when you're talking about driving cars solo, because you can go and test drive them yourselves and make up your own mind. But when towing, you can't. I've yet to see a demonstrator at a garage that's even fitted with a tow bar, never mind one that they'll let you take home and hitch a caravan up to. So we have no alternative but to judge based on the reviews of those who have the opportunity.
I can't think of a solution. But since I don't want the reviews to stop, can we cut David a little bit of slack please?
Any form of car testing is an inexact process, based usually on one reviewer's opinion, which in turn is based on his or her opinions formed on the day and in the conditions that he or she happened to drive it.
For a prime example of how these can vary, look no further than the 'Readers test drive the new Hyundai Santa Fe' blog that appears elsewhere on this website. Most people praised the car for its stability, and yet when I drove it - no differently and certainly no more aggressively to how I normally drive whilst towing, I hasten to add - the caravan got into possibly the worst snake I have ever experienced.
Perhaps this was an 'against all odds' event brought on by a sudden gust of wind that just happened to occur at the same time that I was overtaking a lorry, I don't know. But I'm afraid I don't care if 100 other people thought the car was stable whilst towing; I didn't. The end.
This certainly isn't the first time that my opinion has differed from others'. Based on a test drive last year, there's no way I'd consider spending my hard-earned on the current Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, yet I see hundreds of the damn things. I thought the 2011 Honda Insight was absolutely the worst modern car that I had ever driven, and yet most motoring magazines at the time rated it four stars. And the 2000 Skoda Fabia won What Car magazine's car of the year, which only makes me wonder how on earth they failed to notice that the gear ratios were way, way too close. Driving on the motorway in 5th meant the engine was doing over 3500rpm and unpleasantly loud enough to cause a headache. And off the motorway, the car could be driven quite happily only using 1st, 3rd and 5th gears. I managed this for about 8 miles including town centre traffic, A roads and roundabouts.
None of this is such a problem when you're talking about driving cars solo, because you can go and test drive them yourselves and make up your own mind. But when towing, you can't. I've yet to see a demonstrator at a garage that's even fitted with a tow bar, never mind one that they'll let you take home and hitch a caravan up to. So we have no alternative but to judge based on the reviews of those who have the opportunity.
I can't think of a solution. But since I don't want the reviews to stop, can we cut David a little bit of slack please?
Everyone is completely missing the point of the original post,it's nothing to do with the reviewer's opinion.It may very well be correct.
The point the post is trying to make is the lack of clarity of the description of the reviewer's opinion regarding the car's ability to change lanes.
The point the post is trying to make is the lack of clarity of the description of the reviewer's opinion regarding the car's ability to change lanes.
Thats a big part of what I was trying to say, but so much more eloquently put.
Yes, but what more can you say on that part of the subject. Yep, lack of clarity. Topic over?
bertieboy1 said:
I can see where Bertie boy is coming from, How fast is the lane change, how heavy is the car etc,
Ref Sam and Roses, thoughts about the Sante Fe, towing to Barnard Castle last September, in those strong winds our Coachman at 1600 kg, was being blown around travelling at 15 to 20 mph but the Santa Fe was stable, about 50% fuel and well loaded. on Nokian, weatherproofs. I find it a good tow car.
Edit, you state the car got into a snake, saying nicley, it's the caravan that got into that, mine done the same but by the caravan being badly loaded, never happened again. Just a thought, I read your about your first trip to Switzerland.
.
bertieboy1 said:
I'd agree the lack of definition is not helpful, and it's not helped when the same characteristic could be described as poor by one reviewer and acceptable by another. It's not an exact science.
Not once has anyone explained the drivers qualifications. Sorry Motty. I don’t know how well qualified you are.
So on this forum I know first hand, we have qualified , PSV, HGV, Class one Police, IAM, ROSPA, and various instructor qualifications.
Sam and Rose script holds water if they are “qualified” as I describe above. Otherwise the reference to the Hyundai is a one off without substance and perhaps should be considered irrelevant. No insult or criticism intended Sam.
I spent my working life investigating accidents and the psychology involved in road rail aviation.
Testing something in a controlled environment when you know what will happen next is not the same as the sudden and unexpected problem with no afore thought.
For a road test and tow to be meaningful there should be a set of pre arranged parameters, including the testers own abilities . Remove all the variables and just maybe a realistic structured result may ensue.
Age is an important factor too. Your average crew in an airline is probably less than 30 years old. At the peak of performance!
So on this forum I know first hand, we have qualified , PSV, HGV, Class one Police, IAM, ROSPA, and various instructor qualifications.
Sam and Rose script holds water if they are “qualified” as I describe above. Otherwise the reference to the Hyundai is a one off without substance and perhaps should be considered irrelevant. No insult or criticism intended Sam.
I spent my working life investigating accidents and the psychology involved in road rail aviation.
Testing something in a controlled environment when you know what will happen next is not the same as the sudden and unexpected problem with no afore thought.
For a road test and tow to be meaningful there should be a set of pre arranged parameters, including the testers own abilities . Remove all the variables and just maybe a realistic structured result may ensue.
Age is an important factor too. Your average crew in an airline is probably less than 30 years old. At the peak of performance!
Dustydog said:....So on this forum I know first hand, we have qualified , PSV, HGV, Class one Police, IAM, ROSPA, and various instructors !.....quote]
Forgive me for asking but what is IAM & ROSPA ?
Institute of Advanced Motoring and Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents. I did the ROSPA course when driving Artics. Wasnt really much about it, and I certainly didnt learn anything new. The firm had recently had a number of accidents, one in which two people were sadly killed. I wasnt involved, but the insurance company insisted all drivers did the course.
The bulk of the course was about reading the road ahead, which in all honestly, any moderately proficient artic man does anyway.
Thingy said:
So its similar to CPC courses that we do now where we have to have 35 hours off courses in over 5 years . Cheers .
Craigyoung said:
Thingy said:
Craigyoung said:
I presume the CPC you refer to is Certificate of Professional Competence, s that correct?
In my view, it is not how much Motty is qualified but how experienced he is, which is very!
Cliff
Cliff
I have returned from two weeks' caravanning in France - lovely and thankfully snake-free - ready to re-ignite this issue ...
Dusty - no offence taken at all but you raise an interesting point regarding when a driver becomes 'qualified'.
I will admit here and now that I possess none of the driver categories / licences referenced. All of my towing experience is self-taught, initially by playing with toy cars and trailers as a child - hey, don't knock it, it really does help to teach you how to reverse - observing other people's experience with horse trailers in my early teens and subsequently gained from my own experience with a small camping trailer and eventually my current caravan. So it's fine by me if you all dismiss my experience of the Hyundai as irrelevant, without substance and based on the opinion of someone ill-qualified to offer it.
However - what if the same thing had happened to Motty during his road test? If be cannot honestly report his experience, and offer his opinion based on it without facing criticism then he is quite simply being restricted from doing the job we all want him to do.
Regarding the driver categories listed: I'm sorry but I can't see how having a PCV licence is of any relevance to towing at all. I can see that having an HGV licence might, but the trailer of an articulated lorry differs from a caravan in almost every possible way. Police drivers are clearly more experienced at driving cars solo in extreme conditions, but how often do they tow? I suspect the answer is 'rarely, if ever'. And IAM and ROSPA courses obviously promote driver safety, but we aren't looking for journalists to be safe. Their tests such as the 'sudden lane change' are as close as they can get to those moments where we might have to take sudden evasive or corrective action as a result of either our own, or someone else's human error.
Final thought: I've just read this year's Tow Car awards. No spoilers, but this time I agree absolutely with the comments made on the winning vehicle, based on personal experience with an identical car.
Dusty - no offence taken at all but you raise an interesting point regarding when a driver becomes 'qualified'.
I will admit here and now that I possess none of the driver categories / licences referenced. All of my towing experience is self-taught, initially by playing with toy cars and trailers as a child - hey, don't knock it, it really does help to teach you how to reverse - observing other people's experience with horse trailers in my early teens and subsequently gained from my own experience with a small camping trailer and eventually my current caravan. So it's fine by me if you all dismiss my experience of the Hyundai as irrelevant, without substance and based on the opinion of someone ill-qualified to offer it.
However - what if the same thing had happened to Motty during his road test? If be cannot honestly report his experience, and offer his opinion based on it without facing criticism then he is quite simply being restricted from doing the job we all want him to do.
Regarding the driver categories listed: I'm sorry but I can't see how having a PCV licence is of any relevance to towing at all. I can see that having an HGV licence might, but the trailer of an articulated lorry differs from a caravan in almost every possible way. Police drivers are clearly more experienced at driving cars solo in extreme conditions, but how often do they tow? I suspect the answer is 'rarely, if ever'. And IAM and ROSPA courses obviously promote driver safety, but we aren't looking for journalists to be safe. Their tests such as the 'sudden lane change' are as close as they can get to those moments where we might have to take sudden evasive or corrective action as a result of either our own, or someone else's human error.
Final thought: I've just read this year's Tow Car awards. No spoilers, but this time I agree absolutely with the comments made on the winning vehicle, based on personal experience with an identical car.
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