Problem - car tax due to expire whilst on tour

[cris_408518]

No doubt others can understand that the thread was raised about the car being used on the road abroad if and when the UK tax runs out and then getting it back to the UK home base I take it.

The whole thread is about road use, DVLA,Police etc say that legally a car is not roadworthy without tax. If it aint roadworthy it shouldn't be on the road.

No doubt then you go the SORN route.

Brian is only splitting hairs as he likes to attack anything I post at times.

No doubt Keith(M) would not be touring Germany for three months if he wanted to declare SORN.

It really is not difficult!

The original post seems to be re keeping legal whilst touring abroad with a caravan (I guess as its on this forum)and then having to get back to the UK home base.

But as Brian likes to split hairs. As SORN is an OFF ROAD notification woud all insurance companies cover a car with the insurance that is for road use if you have declared the vehicle as being OFF ROAD ?

 

[cris_408518]

Tax disc can only be renewed on or after the month in which it expires

SD -If you want continuity with the road tax without cashing it in you can order online a few days before it expires and get it posted on in time when it arrives in the UK if you have no MOT needs at the same time.

I have a friend in Belgium who has done this as it suits his needs.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

This from...

http://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q369.htm
You cannot drive a vehicle on a road without displaying a tax disc. If you do then you could face a substantial fine from the DVLA. Even if you have insurance and an MOT you should still not drive the vehicle until you have valid tax disc.

Note the wording .."EVEN if you have insurance"

Note the absence of .."invalidate your insurance"

Many may have seen the police stopping cars at road side checks for road tax. If they catch someone what do they do ?They issue a fixed penalty and send the driver on their way. Now SURELY the police would not allow people to drive away with no insurance.

Not splitting hairs cris just stating the facts .

 

[cris_408518]

You can believe what you wish Brian and I hope I never buy a car from you.

Some quotes from other sites re being legal.

1 - " driving without road tax 2006

hi, can anybody help me please. i was stopped in december for driving without road tax, as it had expired. i was then told to produce my docs to the police station and i backdated tax disk. i did this, so when i have just recieved a court summons saying that i was not insured at the time even though i provided all the documents and i was insured, i also recieved the 80 pound fine, which i paid.

also what are the posible fines that i would face if or when i do go to court?

can anybody give me some advice please. "

answer given - "Well i hope you get fined

 

[Lutz]

We've heard a lot about the position of the tax authorities and insurances while the vehicle is in the UK and I don't question the information that has been given by various sources. It obviously seems that the insurers take the position that if the car is not taxed, as required by law, then the car is not insured either. But it would perhaps be worth asking them whether this also applies if the vehicle is used somewhere where it does not have to be taxed, i.e. while out of the country.

It all seems to be a chicken and egg situation to me. You have to prove that the car is insured to get it taxed but until the application for tax has been processed, it is not yet taxed and therefore not insured.

It does raise one further issue, though, too. If car is taken off the road for whatever reason and no longer taxed, how can it remain insured against fire and theft, for instance? Perhaps someone has an answer.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

If your insurance company state your insurance is invalid in their T&C's then you are correct , but not all do. I can not find anything on DVLA or Police sites that state this law, in fact some statements suggest the opposite , which makes me think that some insurance companies simply state it to avoid payment.

As for buying a car from me of cause I would never release an un taxed car.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Sorry Lutz my post was to cris .

 

[cris_408518]

The laws of the UK differ to other countries is one thing to remember.

A motorcyclist purchased an aftermarket performance exhaust for his bike at a European Moto GP and fitted it there. On his way home he crashed and was hospitalised ending up with him and the damaged bike being repatriated to the UK.

Thanks to an eagle eyed insurance assessor the insurance company would not pay out as in the UK the exhaust was not legal on public roads. Taxed and insured for the UK it had to be within UK regulations and they got out of a large payment and it was lucky for my best friend that no other vehicles were involved. The accident was caused by him falling asleep!

If insurers can get out of paying in the UK they will!

 

[EvansofSprot]

The Caravan Club in the Bible (Caravan Europe I),say that you must have 'a current UK vehicle license', and that you may order it six weeks in advance.

 

[cris_408518]

It is a grey area Brian and even one of my own old guys was prosecuted for driving whilst un-insured for another employer as his works van had run out of tax whilst working in Holland a while back, he got past Dover Kent Police OK but got done at home in Wales with a large fine and record. As the driver he was considered responsible to!

Your response re your cars is good to hear, my own late father was nearly bankrupt through one of these insured but not taxed cases when he bought a motorbike when I was two. Salesman told him that the tax was applied for and he would have it on the Monday and he should take the bike and then he was hit as he left the showroom. His insurance refused to pay all those years ago!

Only the honest garage owner saved the day as he went witness against his own salesman.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Cris ,this is from the DVLA website.

What could happen

As the registered keeper of an untaxed vehicle, you could be fined a minimum of

 

[BrianStAlbans]

And with respect to Keith (M) for taking his original post off track do as suggested before and cash in your current tax and re tax straight away.

Brian

 

[cris_408518]

We agree on something then Brian. INSURERS :-(

My old welder has just called by to see me and a fine gent he is now

As a wayward teenager he beleives he committed every motoring offence going more then once. He also got fined on top for contempt of court for waving his insurance certificate at a magistrate/judge as they did him for being un-insured as he had no road tax!

He says police let him off once or twice for driving cars he worked on with no tax but then started to throw the book at him as he was a naughty boy, even after he "fixed the local coppers wife's car for its MOT"

 

[KeithM]

Quote:/And with respect to Keith (M) for taking his original post off track do as suggested before and cash in your current tax and re tax straight away.Quote

Thanks Brian. I did not expect my simple question to generate so many responses/suggestions/arguments!

At the end of the day MOT's & SORN's do not come into it. I'll put the tax disk in the post on the 28th Feb then wander into town (on foot of course) on the 1st March clutching V5, V10 and debit card. I'll purchase a six month licence then a 12 month one on 1st Sept. That way when/if we spend spring and early summer in France/Germany and the winter in Spain I will not run into this problem again!

Thanks to all for your responses.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

You can download the form here Keith...

http://direct.gov.uk/Diol1/DoItOnline/DoItOnlineArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4017819&chk=opg3sD

 

[JeremyClarksson]

Reading this has reminded me of something - before the days of SORN I had a m/c insured with Norwich Union.

I kept it in the garage and did not want to use it for a while I rang NU at that time explained that the bike was going to stay in the garage untaxed and tested until I wanted to use it again but I still wanted cover in case of fire and theft and they said I was covered by the existing policy.

Remember the debate is not about whether the vehicle is road legal it is about insurance cover.

In addition - without road tax a vehicle would not be road legal (excepting the going to MOT get out) but roadworthiness is a different matter and an MOT is an indication that the vehicle was roadworthy (not insured) at the last test.

You can legally leave a car that has failed its test on the road until the tax runs out.

 

[emmitdb]

Keith M,

Can I add my ten pennyworth.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned sending off the tax disc on the last day of the month.

I know I'm shouting.

DON'T DO THAT.

If DVLA receive that tax disc on the first day of the following month(if you follow me) they will not give you that months tax back.

Go to the Post Office on the day preceeding the last day and ask the postmaster to stamp the back of your envelope (sealed)containing your application form and tax disc. Stick a First class stamp on it and post it.

That way, if there is a delay in the post, which is not unheard of, the DVLA will see the stamp on the back and you'll be safe.

 

[emmerson2]

Reading this has reminded me of something - before the days of SORN I had a m/c insured with Norwich Union.

I kept it in the garage and did not want to use it for a while I rang NU at that time explained that the bike was going to stay in the garage untaxed and tested until I wanted to use it again but I still wanted cover in case of fire and theft and they said I was covered by the existing policy.

Remember the debate is not about whether the vehicle is road legal it is about insurance cover.

In addition - without road tax a vehicle would not be road legal (excepting the going to MOT get out) but roadworthiness is a different matter and an MOT is an indication that the vehicle was roadworthy (not insured) at the last test.

You can legally leave a car that has failed its test on the road until the tax runs out.

Garry, but you must have an MOT before you can put your car on the road. How, therefore, can you leave a car on the road if it fails the test? " leaving it on the road" is surely the same as drving it on the road?

 

[Lutz]

Garry's reply is pretty clear that if the car is untaxed, it is still covered by insurance so long as it is not driven illegally on public roads where it must, of course, be taxed. At least he indicates that this appears to be the position of the Norwich Union. Consequently, at least with this insurance company, there should be no problems in using the car while abroad but untaxed. This raises the question whether other insurance companies apply similar conditions.

 

[cris_408518]

We've gone of the original track here, but Lutz last post concerns me.

My understanding is that it is illegal to drive without Road Tax, so how you can drive and be insured I'm still not sure if the Tax runs out be you in the UK or anywhere else.

Due to this subject I've just received an email about an AA warning that many UK motorists with fully comp insurance are still only partially covered for 3rd party cover when driving in Europe. Some companies charge an extra for full european cover.

How anyone could expect that their insurers would then pay out should they be in a road accident on holiday in Europe with no UK road tax I can only guess at.

We have people who come on here who worry about putting a screw in a caravan in case it invalidates the warrantee and others who need all sorts of support re their first trip abroad with the caravan.

How Lutz can advise -

" Consequently, at least with this insurance company, there should be no problems in using the car while abroad but untaxed."

You can apply for road tax six weeks before its due in cases where you will be abroad or take the route that Keith(M) is taking.

If you want a care free holiday, with Police and MP's saying it's illegal to drive without tax thus making you uninsured and with others with convictions for no insurance cover as there was no road tax. Also cars being crushed as they are considered illegal with no road tax when parked just make sure you have all in order before you hit the raods in UK or Europe.

It could be a big shock to have a mishap with your Sorento and Bailey in France and then find that there is no pay out as the tax had expired or even that your cover is only 3rd party.

If it was decided that you were on the road illegaly would the caravan insurer pay out as well!

Just don't take the risk !

 

[Lutz]

I think you have missed the point, Cris. Putting the insurance issue aside for a moment, it is NOT illegal to drive while abroad without the car being taxed. Only when the car is used in the country in which it is registered does it have to be taxed.

 

[Lutz]

I think you have missed the point, Cris. Putting the insurance issue aside for a moment, it is NOT illegal to drive while abroad without the car being taxed. Only when the car is used in the country in which it is registered does it have to be taxed.

You can compare it with duty-free shopping. The vehicle is considered to be temporarily exported (perhaps older forum readers can remember the days when one needed an export licence or "carnet de passage" before you could take your car abroad on holiday).

 

[Lutz]

I think you have missed the point, Cris. Putting the insurance issue aside for a moment, it is NOT illegal to drive while abroad without the car being taxed. Only when the car is used in the country in which it is registered does it have to be taxed.

For tax purposes, UK law ends a soon as the the car has left the country. Once you are abroad, no-one will even care whether you have paid VAT on the car or not.

The system works both ways, though. If you have an accident while abroad and the car is a write-off and the wreck is not brought back home, you may be liable for tax in the foreign country on the car that you have left there, even though it is scrap.

 

[cris_408518]

As posted above, all though some time ago my friends Motorbike claim went unpaid as the insurance assessor noticed that the bike had been altered and was not legal on UK roads allthough the accidednt happened in Europe.

For a family to expect a UK insurer to pay out for an accident if the car did not comply to UK law is bein very optomistic and could cost a lot.

What you are actualy suggesting Lutz would mean that many Brits who work or spend long periods in Europe and drive UK registered cars get the car past Dover and then cash in the Road Tax as they will be fully insured.

With the wide variety of concerns that get raised here and the potential cost should an accident happen and the insurers not pay out I feel that the risk is to great for anyone to chance driving un taxed in Europe.

 

[JeremyClarksson]

cris

Your friend would have invalidated his insurance by modifying his bike and not notifying the insurance company where ever he would have been using it.

Moving back to the original question from Keith(M) - I would make sure that the tax issue is sorted out one way or another otherwise you could run into SORN prolems - contact them in writing and get a reply in writing and then you should be on solid ground should a dispute arise.

Any court would throw a prosecution out if you could prove you were acting on the DVLA advice.