Problems towing a Bailey Unicorn with Skoda Superb

[jontygee]

Hi

I am in a dilemma and I hope someone can help. I have recently bought a Bailey Unicorn Valencia 2011. I have just returned from towing it on the M6 and to say the journey was a nightmare is an understatement. The car felt like I was steering on glass and I have lost confidence. I did not exceed 55 mph.

My car is a Skoda Superb Elegance 2.0 TDI CR170 Diesel estate. The v5 quotes Mass in service as 1562, max permissible mass as 2125, technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer as 1800 braked, 750 unbraked.

The Unicorn Valencia MTPLM is 1565 and MIRO is 1409

I have used the Caravan club's matching service and this tells me the match is unsuitable, kerbweight ratio being 105% but quotes the kerbweight of the car as 1407 and I have no idea where they got this from.

However I can't get over the fact that the journey was a nightmare and I do not want to tow again using this combination of car/caravan.

Can anyone tell me whether my car should be able to safely tow this caravan or should I not even try it based on the figures I have provided (as suggested by the Caravan club matching service)

Any advice gratefully received

thanks

John

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

If you are new to towing then your ratio of 105% is NOT recommended. Also, how have you loaded the car and van? Are all weighty items at floor level? Have you made sure (by weighbridge) that the max weight of the van is below 1565 kg?

 

[Parksy]

Another thing to consider (at the risk of re-opening an old can of worms) is the caravan noseweight. Try to achieve the maximum allowable noseweight without overloading the caravan, and try to make the car heavier and the caravan lighter by stowing items like awnings, boxes of crockery, tinned food etc in the towing vehicle if possible.
It's surprising how much weight can be added to any caravan when items like awnings and ground sheets, lpg bottles, the leisure battery, clothing,crockery, cutlery, bottles, cans etc are carried onboard.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John.
Your car shares the same platform as the VW Passat which is the tow car of the year.
Your description of driving on glass makes me suspect your car is poorly loaded or even overloaded at the rear.
Additionally as Parksy said Nose weight!
How exactly did you check your nose weight before departure ?
What is your nose weight?
Sir WC has briefly explained how to correctly load the caravan.See the Caravan Club website for full details.
Did you adjust the car tyre pressure for maximum loading? Same for the caravan tyres.
Although you are towing above the suggested figure a correctly jigged car and caravan should not be as bad as you say.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi John,
yes totally agree, poor loading and trim level, the symptoms you describe are typical "dogs tail wagging the dog" although many tut tut, at highish trailer loads, it is never as bad as it is on paper, the tow ratio assumes full weight of the van [MTPLM] towed by a almost empty car, Kerbweight, but in reality the ratio is much lower, say a 1500kg [KW] car tows a 1500kg van [MTPLM] as it stands on the road, the assumption is you have a 100% ratio.
but by moving items out of the van into the car this is reduced, as a general principle, for towing get the car as heavy [within load limits] as possible and the trailer as weight as low as possible, place all items carried if possible on the floor near the axles, and take out of the van anything you don't really need, and can get when you arrive. pack clothes ect, in boxes or suit cases and carry in the car along with any other items like awnings poles ect, and if possible use a roof rack and if not carrying passengers load the car over the rear seats, to reduce the rear axle weight and pull the front axle down, of the car, by increasing this weight [prevents light steering] dont forget the noseweight is carried by the car so this must be calculated in the rear axle weight, increase the tyre pressures and set the noseload.
if this is done correctly the ratio will be nearer 80% than 100%, and you should have a more stable tow.

a lot of people forget that caravanning is a compromise of many things, inc space and weight it may be inconvenient to carry cloths in box in the car, and do the shopping when you get there, or even leaving the BBQ and bikes at home :woohoo: but the most important part of caravanning is to get there safely, and return home as relaxed as possible, a poor tow adds stress you don't need, read some old threads on loading and weight move things around with the outfit set it up properly and I am sure the next tow will be better, as there is nothing wrong with the Skoda as Dusty says.
colin.

 

[gravesyt]

Hi Jontygee and welcome I have just done a match on the cc+c here are the main point that show up which my be why you are having trouble
KERB/MTPLM . 95.8%---
Experienced tower only; vehicle may struggle when pulling away and on inclines. The ability of the car to keep the trailer under control may be compromised. This could be placing excessive strain on the car, consider a lower combination weight.
Achievable Noseweight. 5.1%
Target noseweight of 7% (or above) NOT achievable, however a noseweight of 5.1% is possible. The result is the percentage of the gross caravan weight permitted on the vehicle's tow ball. The most stable towing combinations require 7% (or above) of the caravan's weight on the tow ball, less than 5% is deemed undesirable. Always check the noseweight of your caravan when loading.
Max Tow / MTPLM. 78.3%. Do not take Max Tow literally as it is a only a test of traction on a 1:8 hill start , and not the overall the ability of the car to tow at normal road speeds. If this figure is over 100% you could be in breach of your car's warranty and may be breaking the law!
VIN Plate / MTPLM 78.3 %
This calculation is based on the gross train weight (the maximum permitted combined weight of the car and the caravan). When towing with your vehicle at GVM and Caravan at MTPLM, if this match is above 100% you are breaking the law!
I agree with Dustydog looking at theses figures Noseweight is the main problem
hope this will help

 

[jontygee]

Many thanks for all the replies. gravesyt, how did you get the 95.8% match, when I did it on the Caravan club web site the kerbweight ratio was 105%???

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

He said kerb/MPTLM instead of the other way up.

 

[Dustydog]

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/reviews/tow-car/31688-skoda-superb-estate
Have a read of the above email article. Maybe David Motton will comment
I am sure our Emeritus Prof will add more on the weights.

 

[Plodd]

Not sure if your car is the same but some of the tow matching sites use Skoda's quoted weight for my Yeti which is without driver. Not sure if yours will be the same but it's worth checking. The 75Kg can make a HUGE difference.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Not sure if your car is the same but some of the tow matching sites use Skoda's quoted weight for my Yeti which is without driver. Not sure if yours will be the same but it's worth checking. The 75Kg can make a HUGE difference.

The OP quoted the V5 figure, so that's the legally binding one.

 

[Hutch]

As all our previous posters have said, Nose weights and load of the caravan, but also what is the state of your car tyres, I change my tyres at 3mm. As by then they have lost grip on the road and towing you need the best grip all round. But also check , if you have an Alko hitch, what, is the state of the friction pads. This can change the feel of the van. I tow caravans with and withought the Alko hitch stabalisers, and it is noticable. .

 

[gravesyt]

Hi Jontygee I used the CC+C match site just put in the details you gave me that's the figures that cane back my be as was posted the CC gave the figures without the 75kg for driver also some sites just give the weight of the standard model as yours is a elegance will be heaver due to its spec but the best way to check is go to a weigh bridge you will be surprised then go from their you might be able to in crease your noseweight and make for a better/safer drive

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

I'm sorry to read of the experience you have had. Generally most of the larger VAG vehicles have a good reputation as tow vehicles, which raises questions about why your choice has not been successful. Thank you for providing all the information in your post, as so often new posters don't.

Based on what you have told us I'm inclined to agree with the comments already made. But I am particularly concerned with two aspects of your post.

The most serious concern is, you tell us you are new to caravanning, and I wonder how new you are to driving, as when you passed your driving test affects what entitlements you have. The crucial date is Jan 1997 when the standard license entitlement were changed and new drivers had much lower weight limits applied to their licences.

Normal domestic cars and caravans fall under entitlement Cat B. Before Jan 1997 you automatically were give the BE trailer entitlement and could drive any outfit with a combined MAM of upr to 7500kg, which covered all possible car and caravan combinations.

Since that date new drivers only received Cat B without the "E" entitlement which limits them to outfits of combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg.

MAM stands for Maximum Authorised Mass which relates to your car's MPM and the caravan's MTPLM

To put this into context for you:
In your case MPM 2125kg + MTPLPM 1565kg = 3690kg which is greater than the 3500kg limit.

To drive your outfit you must have entitlements Cat BE or Cat B+e

You can take a test to add the "+e" element to your licence.

The second point which is more general point about the reliability of car and caravan matching services. DONT TRUST THEM! There have been several forum threads reporting these services where they don't have the right information about the cars or caravans. The fact is ALL and I mean ALL these services have holes or inaccurate in the data and the big problem is you don't know which information is wrong.

Accuracy of data is paramount in these calculations, and it is vital that you can exactly match the make model year engine capacity and performance level, fuel type power output body style and trim, (yes even trim) level of your vehicles, as such details can and do affect weights and even manufactures specifications for towing. You cannot rely on similar model data.

Ultimately, all these services do is offer an opinion which may or may not be based on assumptions which may or may not apply to you.

I am of the opinion that by the time you have been able to check they have all the right data you can work out the critical figures by yourself. Legally if you are stopped and prosecuted for a towing offence, if your defense relies on the information from one of these services you will be told it's your responsibility to check your outfit for compliance. DIY.

 

[Woodentop]

I would heartily agree with other comments about noseweight. Specifically (and if necessary contact Skoda UK) confirm the maximum noseweight as Skoda tend to be on the light side. The Octavia (which is based on a Golf chassis) limited to 75Kg, whereas the Passat Estate (on which the Superb is based) is 90Kg for the chassis although the towbar itself may be less.

One thing I would suggest that I found out with my Octavia. Get everything balanced so that the noseweight of the van is a few Kg less than the maximum the car will take, get the outfit on a flat level road and see if the car and caravan sit level in line or if the caravan is pulling the rear of the car down (and consequently the nose up.) We had this problem with the Octavia as it was fitted with low(er) profile tyres which give a hard ride so (we believe) Skoda fitted softer springs to compensate. I fitted some Grayston additional springs (like the better known Maxx) and it made a world of difference - very easy DIY job.

Final thought: your tug doesn't have self-levelling suspension that is not working or adjustable ride height (pneumatic shock absorbers) does it?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Jontygee I used the CC+C match site just put in the details you gave me that's the figures that cane back my be as was posted the CC gave the figures without the 75kg for driver also some sites just give the weight of the standard model as yours is a elegance will be heaver due to its spec but the best way to check is go to a weigh bridge you will be surprised then go from their you might be able to in crease your noseweight and make for a better/safer drive

This is poor information hmy: .
As I pointed out in my last post DO NOT TRUST matching web sites. You must ensure the data used is for your exact model not similar models.

The nose load limit for the car is set by the manufacturer and cannot be increased in any way beyond its specification. To do so endangers the mounting points under the car.

And just incase someone suggests adding spring assisters or self leveling suspension, these do not increase carrying capacities, and on modern cars can adversely affect cars with electronic stability control systems.

 

[Raywood]

Basically I agree with the Professor. First I would check your licence to make sure you can tow at these weights as if not you need to sit the additional test.
My opinion is the combination is wrong, the caravan is too heavy for a newcomer to towing and a heavier tow car is needed or a lighter caravan. Even for an experienced caravanner you are at the very limit or over what you can tow safely. Having said that the towing performance should be better than you state, so there is more wrong, probably the loading which needs to follow the advice previously given and the nose weight and tyre pressures may need adjusting.
If you can sort that lot out you should find towing a lot easier but take it easy at first and you soon get the hang of it.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

that is the problem with threads like this where the OP joins and asks a question without making an introduction we nothing about the members experience, age licence ect, so all answers are based on supposition and what if" until "John" comes back with answers to some of the scenarios posted we will never know, for instance he gave the figures off the V5 but not the ones on the vehicle weight plate, so no one has any idea how close to the gross train weight the caravan is!! I suspect it is well within the limits, and if this is the case, the poor towing will be down to poor preparation and loading.
the heavier the van the more important it is, often forgot when a caravanner switches to a heavier van than their used to. weight by it's self should not be an issue, nor should the noseweight as long as both are within limits,
over to you "John"

 

[Raywood]

that is the problem with threads like this where the OP joins and asks a question without making an introduction we nothing about the members experience, age licence ect, so all answers are based on supposition and what if" until "John" comes back with answers to some of the scenarios posted we will never know, for instance he gave the figures off the V5 but not the ones on the vehicle weight plate, so no one has any idea how close to the gross train weight the caravan is!! I suspect it is well within the limits, and if this is the case, the poor towing will be down to poor preparation and loading.
the heavier the van the more important it is, often forgot when a caravanner switches to a heavier van than their used to. weight by it's self should not be an issue, nor should the noseweight as long as both are within limits, "John"

I take your point but the question does appear to be from someone new to towing but most of the answers would still be appropriate if this is not the case.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Ray, I tend to agree most of the answers, would help, but not all as they are based on assumptions, saying a particular outfit is unsuitable, or the caravan is too heavy for a car that is or is close to one that has won several awards inc tow car of the year is stretching it just a bit, you can read into the opening statement what you will, to me it says the OP has bought a new van, and in the process of bringing it home up the M6 it towed very badly, that is fair enough, one of the worse scenarios you can have is the van straight from the dealer untrimmed. thrown onto an empty car and towed up a motorway, without all the facts it is all supposition, that is the problem with this type of thread.
Colin.

 

[jontygee]

thanks everyone for your helpful replies. To answer some of the questions and missing info, I obtained my licence in 1981 so I am covered there. I am not new to caravanning, i have been towing for about 7 years, I used to tow an Ace Award Morningstar 2007 and never had a problem towing and when I changed to the Bailey Unicorn Valencia the dealer told me that it was a lighter van than the Ace so should be fine with my car. I do know it is my fault, I should have checked.

My tyres were pumped up to the level as if the car were full of 4 passengers etc, all four tyres were bought as new in Dec 2015.

As per the car type plate, The maximum permissible gross weight of the car is 2125kg. The maximum permissible towed weight is 3925kg. The mass in service is 1562 which includes 75kg for a driver, so take that off and it gives the figure of 1487 which is the figure used by the matching service on the Caravan club website. The maximum noseweight is 80kg

I had loaded my car with all the heavy stuff from the caravan i.e. awning, poles, pegs etc. However hand on heart I had not tested the noseweight - this is totally my ignorance of the importance of this. There were 2 (lightweight) gas bottles in the nose cone so it is highly probable I have exceeded the noseweight.

it really was a filty horrid day on the M6, windy and driving rain so I lucked out there I suppose.

However taking all this info into account, even if I load the caravan as best I can, even if I get the noseweight as near to 80kg as i can, even if I have checked all tyres, even if I put the heavy stuff in the car and even if I add a top box to my car to (possibly) help aerodynamically, I can't get away from the fact that trusted sites such as the caravan club still tell me I should not tow using my car/caravan combination and the police may consider this unroadworthy.

I have replicated the data from the Caravan club below. So am I taking all this info too literally and in reality have I just had a bad experience increased by my missing the importance of the noseweight, or should I really just take it on the chin and change car or caravan.

Many thanks again for all your help

John

The Club advises that a Skoda Superb Elegance 2.0 TDI CR 170PS (2013) should not tow a Bailey Unicorn Valencia (2011)

This outfit combination does not match. Kerbweight ratio: 105%
The caravan's laden weight is more than the car's kerb weight. There is significant risk of stability problems, especially at higher speed. The Police may consider this combination unroadworthy, and it is illegal for drivers with a standard car licence issued since 1st January 1997.

This outfit combination is a good match. Towing limit ratio: 87%
The caravan's laden weight is within the car's stated towing limit, and therefore meets legal limitations.

This outfit combination is a good match. Gross train weight ratio: 94%
The sum of the car and caravan’s fully laden weights is within the car’s gross train weight. This outfit can therefore be used legally with both the car and the caravan fully laden.
This outfit combination is a good match. Nose weight ratio: 125%
The car's nose weight should be fine to safely tow this caravan. If this figure is high, however, (typically over 100%) care will be needed to load the caravan so that the car’s nose weight limit is not exceeded, but this should be practically achievable. Aim for 5-7% of the caravan’s actual laden weight without overloading the car.
This outfit combination is a good match. BHP per ton : 51
The car’s engine power should be fine to safely tow this caravan.
B+E Licence required
The maximum combined weight of this car and caravan car gross vehicle weight + caravan MTPLM) are over 3500kg, which means you need to have a category B+E driving licence. If you obtained your standard car driving licence before 1st January 1997, you already have this – if not you will need to take a B+E test to legally drive this outfit.

Skoda Superb Elegance 2.0 TDI CR 170PS (2013)
Make Skoda
Range Elegance 2.0 TDI CR 170PS
Model Superb
Year 2013
Fuel type Diesel
Transmission type Manual
Body type Estate
Kerb weight 1487.00kg
Towing limit 1800.00kg
Gross vehicle weight 2125.00kg
Gross train weight 3925.00kg
Nose weight 80.00kg
BHP 170
RPM for maximum BHP 4200.00
Maximum torque 350.00
RPM for maximum torque 1750.00
More info

Bailey Unicorn Valencia (2011)
Make Bailey
Range Unicorn
Model Valencia
Year 2011
Type Caravan
Berths 4
Number of axles 1
MTPLM 1565kg
MIRO 1409kg
User payload 156kg
Hitch limit Unknown
Shipping length 7.25m
Overall width 2.28m
Overall height 2.63m
Body Length 5.67m

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

You said "The maximum permissible towed weight is 3925kg."

This is incorrect. Do you mean 'max train weight'?

 

[Dustydog]

John.
Aren't your gas bottles stored above the axle.
Hearing your comments it will be useful to us guys if you could explain how you measure your nose weight. Do you have any heavy items stored at the rear?.
Your Unicorn has the Al-ko stabiliser, Al-ko ATC, shock absorbers.
Assuming these three items are fully functional I'd look very closely at the nose weight before you give up.
105% ratio is not in itself a problem providing you make allowances on braking distances etc and stay within the vehicle weight guidelines already discussed.
Try again and let us know

 

[jontygee]

my car info doesn't refer to max train weight, it says the max permissible towed weight (towing vehicle and trailer) is 3925.

Gas bottles are in the front, it is later versions of the Unicorn where they are over the axle. I had no heavy items stored at rear. I haven't measured the noseweight yet, but Skoda tell me the max permitted is 80kg. I will use the bathroom scales method in future

 

[Gafferbill]

...................it really was a filty horrid day on the M6, windy and driving rain so I lucked out there I suppose.

.

You have answered your own question!!
A car caravan outfit can easily be blown around by cross winds on motorways such as the M6.

I have seen 20 ton+ artics blown over on their sides on the M6 before now.