Problems with Vauxhall Monterey gearbox - AGAIN

[Tim2]

Like Victor Meldrew "I JUST DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!"

I have a '98 Monterey 3.2 V6(rebadged Isuzu trooper) petrol/LPG 4x4 with which I tow an Avondale Landranger. 4 years ago whilst towing caravan up to Scotland the autogearbox failed due to the failure of of seal on the autobox. It was a slow leak of fluid and by the time the fault manifested itself in gears "slipping" gearbox was "badly burnt" and had to be rebuilt by John Mackie of Glasgow Mackie are highly thought of geabox specialists and on their recommendation I, also, had an additional gearbox oil cooler fitted. Total cost of c£1600.

No further problems with gearbox whilst subsequently towing to Continent twice and twice to Scotland and numerous other shorter solo and towing trips. No problems that is until this summer. Just before setting off for the Continent for summer hols I had the transmission serviced according to the manufacturer's schedule, ie, fluid change after 4 years Towed the van down to Northern Italy including St Gotthard pass on the way down, St Gotthard tunnel on the way back, without any probs with gearbox.

However near Luxembourg , after towing all morning, on way home, gears suddenly began slipping. I stopped immediately but even as I pulled onto the hard shoulder black smoke billowed from the rear of the car, presumably oil burning on the hot exhaust. There was a great deal of oil on the carraigeway - so much so that the fire brigade came out and sanded the road. Breakdown truck towed us off the motorway and after leaving us at a local caravan site took the car to a lcoal Opel dealer. After few days wait garage declared that it was a problem with an "old oil leak", that it had been rectified and said that we could continue towing on our journey. A little surprised at this as I had suggested that problem might well be the gearbox.

Only 10 miles after starting off the gears agains began slipping and transmission oil warning light came on. Breakdown truck again. Caravan back to site, car back to same garage. Garage then decided serious gearbox failure that could not be repaired locally. We got home home by hire car and our car and caravan have just arrived home on car transporter. Another local gearbox specialist has now advised that the auto gearbox is wrecked due to serious overheating. A new gearbox is needed at a cost of c£1800. I am now in "discussions" with the assistance company as to the wisdom of putting me back on the road without repairing the original fault!!

What is going on with this vehicle? I have done all that I should have done to maintain the gearbox? The 'van is well within the towing limit. I generally like the car but I'm not prepared to spend nearly £2K on new gearboxes every 4 years.

Any comments or experiences would be very welcome.

Thanks

T

 

[DavidW1]

Tim,

Sorry to hear about your problem - I have a Bighorn diesel auto, probably same box but thankfully very reliable.

You say previous prob was leaking seal and was fixed, however there are lots of seals on the box also several external tubes with joints and now you have a cooler there is also an external matrix, all can leak plus of course the sump joint or drain plug.

Without being patronising Auto gearboxes are often a forgotton item, I always check the driveway for tell tale leaks but admit I rarely do a level check because of lazyness and the fact that it is a less than straightforward operation! If mine was low on oil at this minute I confess I wouldn't know - it only gets checked at service time.

I don't think these Isuzu boxes have an inherent problem, certainly nothing is highlighted on the owners club forum, it's just a mechanical device like any other that needs regular checking to ensure correct function, correct oil level and oil changes as per schedule.

You have been unlucky and of course it's no help now but keeping an eye out for leaks and regular level checks will ensure spotting any future probs before they "develop"

 

[CliveV]

Hi Tim

I am not an expert on the Trooper/Monterey but know how capable they are. From what I have picked up from friends who run them - the petrols have a GM auto box and the diesels have an Aisin Warner box. Both are reliable - usually!

The GM box is similar to those used in other marques including Jaguar and the Aisin Warner auto box is used in Mitsubishi and Volvo's - So getting a rebuilt one should not be a problem.

I to have experienced the same as yourself in my old Range Rover but due entirely to my own stupidity. After playing on an off-road course my number plate came off and the radiators - including the autobox oil cooler were covered in mud. Stupidly I then tied the number plate to the radiator grill in front of the autobox oil cooler. I then packed up the caravan and drove home. Got there ok but the smell of burnt oil was awful.

I changed the oil and filter but the damage was done. After a few more miles the smell was awful and the she slipped in every gear.

But being a LR I sourced a good s/h unit for

 

[Lutz]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I also have a '98 auto Monterey 3.5V6 and have never experienced any problems although I've used the car for over 6 years almost exclusively for towing. Other than the prescribed oil changes it's not received any additional service.

(By the way, the auto box on the petrol is also an Aisin Warner).

 

[DavidW1]

Hi again Tim,

I see you have put this indentical post on the owners club forum - you will see from reading the transmission topic that you are unique in that only one owner has ever reported a leak problem and that was an external cooler tube leaking on to the engine cross member.

Another thing I picked up was that the later petrol models have no dipstick for the Autobox just a drain plug and filler level plug.

If yours is this type then checking the level is a real chore, ie. running the engine (hot)in park and removing the level plug; if oil comes out it's ok! If it's not, put some in: obviously a feature desinged to be carried out at sevice visits.

It occurs to me that unless a mechanic is familiar with this procedure auto box top up could well be neglected, particularly if it is assumed that the box is sealed for life, combine this with a small leak and bingo there's your problem.

Makes looking for teltale oil stains after parking overnight even more important me thinks

 

[CliveV]

Hi again Tim

I notice you also post the same on the Trooper OC Forum. Much the same advice but I woulod suggest they know the vehicle a tad better than most.

Certainly they confirm my understanding (adjacent thread) that the autoboxes are one type for the Diesel and another for the petrol.

As a Land Rover owner I really could not care less! - All I know is that when I took a friend down to our local Isuzu dealership for spares they asked "Petrol or Diesel?" - "Because the autogearbox is totally different"

So I suggest you get advice from the owners club rather than ask on a caravan forum !!!! :0)

 

[Tim2]

Thanks Everyone for your replies

I have posted on this snd other websites, not because I expect a magic answer but to gain further insights.

As someone has pointed out already there is no easy way of checking the gearbox transmission fluid levels or condition as there is no dipstick or anything like that.

I'm afraid therefore that I leave this checking to the gearbox specialists. I had the transmission checkedin April, the 4 year service interval stated in the vehicle handbook. A reputable gearbox specialist has, supposedly, changed the fluid and filter and, when I told him of my previous problems 4 years ago when a seal failed, suggested a "Lucas Additive" which he said would help the seals stay more pliable and effective. He reported that there were no problems with the old transmission fluid and that the magnet was clean. He did say that he had not been able to completely remove the cover from the gearbox sump as there was a jammed stud which prevented him removing the obstructing exhaust pipe. For that reason the job did take longer than he had expected and I was kept waiting around for 2 rather than 1 hour for the job to be completed. As to the truth or otherwise of any of these facts I am in their hands!!??

All that I can say with any certainty regarding my Belgian breakdowns is that something failed on the gearbox permitting a considerable loss of fluid. The fault was not repaired at the garage that the car was taken to. I should have never been put back on the road to tow before the second breakdown only 10 miles up the road.

Cause, proof and liability are my next battles!!

Regards

T

 

[Tim2]

Hi all

Collected the repaired car today. New gearbox and overhaul of radiator and cooling system - A SNIP at only

 

[CliveV]

Presumably it has a dipstick to judge the oil level?

If so just check that the levels are correct.

I would also schedule a fluid change every 12 months - it is not expensive compared to a new box (and you, sadly, should know!!) so treat the yearly cost as an insurance.

 

[Lutz]

The 4L30-E automatic transmission which, by the way, is common for both '98 petrol and diesel models, does not have a dipstick, only an overfill screw plug (source: Service Manual).

 

[CliveV]

Ever persistant Lutz! lol!!!

I am only going by an overheard conversation in an Isuzu dealership and what is published in the ownersclub Forum. Two gearboxes were used arround that time one for petrols and one for the diesel boxes. But of course I expect you know better.

As for it not having a dipstick! Well really!!!

And it calls itself a 4x4!!!!

 

[DavidW1]

Sorry Clive, Lutz is right, I also mentioned that this is the only way to check the level on later boxes, so that daily leak check is important.

Incidentally, my handbook, which is a direct translation from the Japanese instructs that the Auto box fluid should NEVER be

changed.

I might replace mine at 120k when I do the timing belt although at present yearly miles that will be in 2012.

 

[CliveV]

I don't doubt the fact that it does not have a dipstick - after all it either has one or it dosen't!!

But being driven in two Troopers owned by two friends one a diesel 3.1 and one a 3.5 (I think) petrol I remarked that one gear selector had just three gears and one had four. I was told that the 3.1 tdi had a three speed box with overdrive and the petrol had a straight 4 speed auto.

Later the diference was confirmed whilst i stood idly by next to my petrol Trooper owning friend when he wanted spares. I distinctly heard the parts guy say that the two boxes where diferent.

This from the Trooper OC Forum that me friend with the TDi Trooper has just emailed accross to me after I sought clarification from him:-

Grandad

****

Joined: 22 Sep 2005

Posts: 412

Location: NORFOLK

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 17:05 Post subject:

just to make clear a few points

the auto box on the petrol troopers is a G M box the diesel engine has an Aisin Warner box they are totally different the Aisin AW30-40LE is fitted in various forms to toyota mitsubishi and volvo

whether any of these would be interchangeable i dont know

on the pajero for instance the box is fitted with a center diff between the box and the transfer case all parts are available for these boxes from most gearbox specialists

The entry can be viewed :-

http://www.itocuk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4693&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=autobox&start=45
As I said earlier - whilst I respect the Tropper I would not want one. Just personal preference.

But please please please!! - Why all the anal retentive "Your wrong!" comments. I only posted it to try to be helpful!!!

Mind you, if you are anally retentive try to keep it that way if you are standing near me! ;0)

 

[Lutz]

I've only got the Service Manual for the Mk 2 built 1998 onwards. Maybe the Mk 1 is different and you perhaps you're right for that model, Clive.

I suspect that could be the case because you mention a 3.1 diesel which would date it as a Mk 1 (later Mk 2's have the 3.0DTI).

 

[CliveV]

No idea Lutz.

 

[CliveV]

Woops!! - something odd hapened there posted when I didn't mean to. Should have read:-

No idea lutz. Had an interesting discussion on a 4x4 Forum re the lack of a dipstick on the Trooper tho'. This guy reckons that on a Land Rover Autobox the dipstic does far more than just allow you to regularly check the fluid level. He reckons it acts as a breather tube as well. (Land Rover manual/transfer gearboxes and differentials all have breather tubes) This is important in an off-roader because if you go thro water, the sudden temperature drop of a hot gearbox causes the hot air inside to contract.

Without a breather this can mean that the water plus whatever muck is in it being drawn into the gearbox/diferential thro the seals. So a nice long tube from the autogearbox up into the upper reaches of the engine compartment allows the 'box to "breath".

It occurs to me that if Isuzu stipulates that the autobox oil should NOT be changed then they somehow make oilseals that last for ever as well as use oil that as far as I am aware has a life longer than any other oil on the market.

Could this be what is happening to Isuzu autoboxes of a certain age? The seals wear, oil leaks and no easy ability to replenish?

I know a Land Rover that does not leak a bit of oil means that it is empty, but I do value the ability to check ALL fluid levels in about 20 mins. - including the differentials and Transfer Box which have filler/level plugs.

 

[Lutz]

My official Isuzu Trooper (Monterey) Service Manual states, quote:

There is no need to change the transmission fluid unless the transmission is used under one or more of the following heavy duty conditions.

A. Repeated short trips

B. Driving on rough roads

C. Driving on dusty roads

D. Towing a trailer

If a vehicle is used under these conditions, change the fluid every 20,000 miles (32,000 km.)

More over, the remaining life percentage of ATF can be estimated by using Tech 2 as an auxiliary tool to judge the right time for ATF replacement.

The remaining life percentage is calculated from ATF'S heat history. When it is close to 0%, ATF replacement is recommended.

 

[CliveV]

Not sure what "Tech 2" is Lutz. Presume it is an analysis system to ascertain the abuse so far given to the fluid??.

If so I have used this sort of thing once before on engine oil to try to "see" what was happening within an engine. The results were interesting and confirmed what we suspected.

But if the Tech 2 analysis on the autobox fluid involves getting to the filler/level plug to obtain some of the fluid - it seems more logical to me to simply carry on and drain it and replace whilst you are there.

But certainly your manual sets out fluid change periods that seem sensible. In particular the "Towing a Trailer" (Caravan?????) should be food for thought.

On the LR 4 speed autobox they recommend a fluid and filter change every 24,000 miles. It is a fairly easy job - exhaust downpipes, chassis crossmember, drain the fluid, take off the autobox sump, refit new filter, then put it all back. Loads of room under a LR which makes it easier than most.

I usually change to fluid every 12,000 miles as well because I do all of A) to D) you state from the Monterey manual plus a fair bit of wading thru water. Plus, even if you drain the fluid, the box "holds onto" that fluid in the torque converter. So more regular changes suit the use my vehicle gets and ensures that all the fluid gets washed out within 24,000 miles.

As for the Trooper manual stating that the autobox fluid should never be changed!!!! All I can say is that the bean counters at Isuzu probably worked out that any problems this caused would happen just outside of the 3 year warranty and therefore not be their problem.

That is what they did with their "self-destruct" 3.0 diesel.

 

[Lutz]

Yes, Tech 2 is the analysis system used throughout GM.

I can't comment further on the advisability of changing the transmission oil on the Trooper/Monterey regularly. I just copied the text straight out of the manual. Actually, the job is even easier than what you describe for the LR as there are no exhaust pipes or chassis crossmembers in the way.

I suspect that the auto transmission was designed specifically so as not to neeed an oil change because the Trooper, and especially the automatic, was intended primarily for the North American market and owners there tend expect a vehicle to be maintenance-free. When I lived there, I was amazed how many of my American colleagues never bothered to have their cars serviced at all once they were out of warranty and consequently didn't even have the engine oil changed. They expected everything sealed-for-life and complained bitterly if the product didn't stand up to such treatment.

The problem with the 3.0 diesel that you mention was, however, a proven design fault which was rectified by Isuzu on later (I think mid '99) engines.

 

[CliveV]

Certainly concur with the general attitude of Americans re regular servicing. No wonder the LR Discovery had so many problems in that market. They do need "a bit of tlc" more than most after all.

I thought Isuzu just binned the 3L engine and introduced the toatally different 3.1litre? I have some experience of the 3litre engine thru' a client of mine whose Full Isuzu Service History vehicle blew up just 3 months out of warrenty at 56,000 miles.

She lost

 

[DavidW1]

I think the Americans could teach us a few things here - I am a firm believer in on condition maintenance and think we ( Brits) faf around with our cars too much, Probably harks back to the days of Austins A30's and Ford Prefects which needed a rebore at 30k. Modern vehicles increasingly use technology to achieve the on condition approach, incidentally a thing which the aviation industry has been doing for decades with sensors, magnetic detectors and cycle monitoring and the like.

The latest Dodge pick up engines and trans are "sealed for life" which means about 250K.

My Trooper Auto trans oil is still clean and pink after 12 years and 50K miles, as long as it stays like that and don't leak I won't bother changing it.

 

[CliveV]

Hi David,

For peace of mind I would change it. A good quality oil will cost no more than about

 

[354]

Our Grand cherokee has the auto fluid changed at every 2nd service as per the service instructions. For me it is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

 

[seth1]

Hi all

Collected the repaired car today. New gearbox and overhaul of radiator and cooling system - A SNIP at only

 

[Tim2]

Hi Everyone

The saga goes on!!

Car is now home with a new gearbox and refurbisheded radiator. The gearbox specialist were not prepared to guarantee the gearbox without the radiator being replaced or refurbished because they have had problems with gearbox repairs failing because of faulty oil box coolers in the radiators. The car repair cost was