I know that Propane is better for winter use but can't seem to find any info anywhere as to why or why not use it all year round. Does Butane have some advantage over Propane?
Bill D.
Bill D.
Propane or Butane
- Thread starter BillD.
- Start date
Butane is cheaper but doesn't work below about 5 degrees Celcius.
Propane is more expensive but works at all UK temperatures.
Propane is more expensive but works at all UK temperatures.
William,
From my GCSE chemistry, I recall that butane has a higher calorific value than propane, meaning you get the same amount of energy from less gas. That's why butane is supplied in smaller bottles than propane - you need less of it to do the same job.
However, gas supplier BOC suggests propane is suitable for countries with cold climates as it can function at temperatures down to -42C whereas butane stops being at any use at -5C, but suffers from reduced performance at temperatures close to zero. I, like many caravanners use propane all year around, but plenty of people who use their vans in spring, summer and autumn manage just fine with butane.
Hope this helps
Nigel Donnelly
Editor
Practical Caravan
From my GCSE chemistry, I recall that butane has a higher calorific value than propane, meaning you get the same amount of energy from less gas. That's why butane is supplied in smaller bottles than propane - you need less of it to do the same job.
However, gas supplier BOC suggests propane is suitable for countries with cold climates as it can function at temperatures down to -42C whereas butane stops being at any use at -5C, but suffers from reduced performance at temperatures close to zero. I, like many caravanners use propane all year around, but plenty of people who use their vans in spring, summer and autumn manage just fine with butane.
Hope this helps
Nigel Donnelly
Editor
Practical Caravan
Nigel - butane is supplied in the same size bottles as propane - because it's more dense the normal carabvan size has 6kg propane compared to 7kg butane.
Hi William, I have found with propane i seem to use alot more than with butane (i will probably be proved wrong?) Anyway i have found that with the jackets you can buy for the aqua rolls it keeps the butane nice and warm even in the severist conditions, (i used to have 15kg bottle outside the front of the van) it all depends when and what conditions you use the van in.
craig
craig
Propane for us all year round. If you don't swap from one to the other you don't notice the difference! Elementary!
Dave
Dave
I did work this out some time ago and posted it then.
Propane is only dearer in the smaller bottle sizes if you can fit or run a 13/15kg bottle the price is almost the same and if you are able to run 19kg bottles out the front (rallies) propane is actually cheaper.
We are able to fit 13kg bottle in front locker so use propane all year round, occasionally we use a 19kg bottle at rallies.
Propane is only dearer in the smaller bottle sizes if you can fit or run a 13/15kg bottle the price is almost the same and if you are able to run 19kg bottles out the front (rallies) propane is actually cheaper.
We are able to fit 13kg bottle in front locker so use propane all year round, occasionally we use a 19kg bottle at rallies.
Hello Craig,
I have just read your posting, and please correct me if I have misunderstood you, but do you fit the jackets over you gas bottles in the belief it keeps them warm?
I'm sorry but is doesn't quite work like that. I am sure you will have noticed that most gas bottle lockers actually have quite a few holes in them. This is for two reasons, firstly for safety so any gas leaks that might occur will quickly dissipate with the air movement through the locker.
The second reasons is because the gas bottles actually need the free air around them to keep them working. and thats why your jackets are not the correct thing to do. Insulations jackets basically do one thing, which is to reduce heat transfer but that works two ways, from inside to out and vice-verca.
It may seem surprising but actually gas bottles need to be able to grab heat from the atmosphere to keep them working. You will have seen on this thread and others references to butane gas stopping working in cold weather, and if the bottle temperature drops low enough it simply does not boil any more gas.
The other factor is that when you use gas, it actually reduce the temperature of the bottle further. ( have you seen the roofers with their big bottles of propane with frost on the bottom ?), so whilst an insulation jacket may keep a CLOSED bottle warmer, it will also prevent a working bottle from acquiring the heat it needs from its surroundings.
If a bottle cannot acquire heat, it will continue to get cooler, and that will drop the gas pressure and eventually it will stop giving gas off until it is warmed up a bit.
Its all to do with the boiling points of liquids: You only get water vapour or steam when water is hot enough. Take away the heat and it stops boiling. The only difference here is the boiling point of the liquid, for water it is 100C, for Butane it is about 0C and for Propane it is -40
An insulation jacket will prevent a gas bottle from grabbing the heat it needs from the air. If you are caravanning in temperatures below +5C it is advisable to switch to propane. At 5C and below the self cooling effect will often prevent Butane from giving enough gas to run the needs of a caravan.
I have just read your posting, and please correct me if I have misunderstood you, but do you fit the jackets over you gas bottles in the belief it keeps them warm?
I'm sorry but is doesn't quite work like that. I am sure you will have noticed that most gas bottle lockers actually have quite a few holes in them. This is for two reasons, firstly for safety so any gas leaks that might occur will quickly dissipate with the air movement through the locker.
The second reasons is because the gas bottles actually need the free air around them to keep them working. and thats why your jackets are not the correct thing to do. Insulations jackets basically do one thing, which is to reduce heat transfer but that works two ways, from inside to out and vice-verca.
It may seem surprising but actually gas bottles need to be able to grab heat from the atmosphere to keep them working. You will have seen on this thread and others references to butane gas stopping working in cold weather, and if the bottle temperature drops low enough it simply does not boil any more gas.
The other factor is that when you use gas, it actually reduce the temperature of the bottle further. ( have you seen the roofers with their big bottles of propane with frost on the bottom ?), so whilst an insulation jacket may keep a CLOSED bottle warmer, it will also prevent a working bottle from acquiring the heat it needs from its surroundings.
If a bottle cannot acquire heat, it will continue to get cooler, and that will drop the gas pressure and eventually it will stop giving gas off until it is warmed up a bit.
Its all to do with the boiling points of liquids: You only get water vapour or steam when water is hot enough. Take away the heat and it stops boiling. The only difference here is the boiling point of the liquid, for water it is 100C, for Butane it is about 0C and for Propane it is -40
An insulation jacket will prevent a gas bottle from grabbing the heat it needs from the air. If you are caravanning in temperatures below +5C it is advisable to switch to propane. At 5C and below the self cooling effect will often prevent Butane from giving enough gas to run the needs of a caravan.
When a liquid evaporates it creates cold, the liquid propane/butane inside a bottle evaporates into gas and cools the bottle in doing so.
This information might seem useless but one, don't insulated your gas bottles it can only make things worse.
Second though, if your stuck with a warm bottle of pop on a hot day? wet a towel or something, wring it out and wrap it tightly around the pop bottle, the same action of cooling while the towel drys will now cool down your pop!
This information might seem useless but one, don't insulated your gas bottles it can only make things worse.
Second though, if your stuck with a warm bottle of pop on a hot day? wet a towel or something, wring it out and wrap it tightly around the pop bottle, the same action of cooling while the towel drys will now cool down your pop!
Thanks for all the comments guys.
One other question, BP & calor have propane in the new lightweight bottles, anyone know if lightweight butane bottles are likely to be introduced soon.
Bill D.
One other question, BP & calor have propane in the new lightweight bottles, anyone know if lightweight butane bottles are likely to be introduced soon.
Bill D.
The physical properties of the two gases are very similar, and when regulated to the correct pressure, they will perform almost identically. However there are some important differences.
Of the two gases, Butane has the most advantages.
It is less toxic and so can legally be used and stored indoors. Litre for litre, it contains around 12% more energy than Propane and so you can squeeze more running time into the same sized bottle. (Butane is heavier than Propane though, so weight for weight it's a pretty close call.)
Butane also burns cleaner than Propane.
Finally, while it's not strictly a property of the gas, Butane canisters generally use clip-on type connections. These are far more convenient than the Propane screw type connections, especially if you swap bottles around regularly (as you might if you also use your caravan bottle to run a barbecue.)
Conversely, Propane has only one advantage over Butane - but it's a big one!
In order to be usable, the liquid in the bottle must be able to boil into a gas. In the case of Butane, this will happen at any temperature above -2C, whereas with Propane, this figure is much lower, at -42C. In the real world, it's not so clear cut. Whenever some of the liquid boils into gas, the remaining liquid cools. It is therefore possible for the temperature of the liquid to drop to several degrees below ambient. This can easily prevent a Butane canister from producing a useful gas supply, even when the outside temperature is several degrees above 0C. A compromise can be reached by mixing Propane with Butane, but as far as I'm aware, none of the UK 'big bottle' suppliers actually do this. The small gas cartridges that are produced for camping stoves and gas lamps are often Propane/Butane mixes. So choosing the right gas pretty much boils down to whether you need to use it in freezing (or near freezing) conditions. If this is likely, then Propane is a must. If not, then Butane has the edge.
Of the two gases, Butane has the most advantages.
It is less toxic and so can legally be used and stored indoors. Litre for litre, it contains around 12% more energy than Propane and so you can squeeze more running time into the same sized bottle. (Butane is heavier than Propane though, so weight for weight it's a pretty close call.)
Butane also burns cleaner than Propane.
Finally, while it's not strictly a property of the gas, Butane canisters generally use clip-on type connections. These are far more convenient than the Propane screw type connections, especially if you swap bottles around regularly (as you might if you also use your caravan bottle to run a barbecue.)
Conversely, Propane has only one advantage over Butane - but it's a big one!
In order to be usable, the liquid in the bottle must be able to boil into a gas. In the case of Butane, this will happen at any temperature above -2C, whereas with Propane, this figure is much lower, at -42C. In the real world, it's not so clear cut. Whenever some of the liquid boils into gas, the remaining liquid cools. It is therefore possible for the temperature of the liquid to drop to several degrees below ambient. This can easily prevent a Butane canister from producing a useful gas supply, even when the outside temperature is several degrees above 0C. A compromise can be reached by mixing Propane with Butane, but as far as I'm aware, none of the UK 'big bottle' suppliers actually do this. The small gas cartridges that are produced for camping stoves and gas lamps are often Propane/Butane mixes. So choosing the right gas pretty much boils down to whether you need to use it in freezing (or near freezing) conditions. If this is likely, then Propane is a must. If not, then Butane has the edge.
Hello Legs,
I was under the impression that Calor do mix their gasses and ad sommfractions with lower boiling points to try to overcome teh low temperature issue.
as you are probably aware, Butand and Propane are just ttwo of several fractions that can eb produced, and others that do find thier way into some streams of commercial Butane and propane inclule Propalyne and propanol.
Whilst this does work for a while, in low temperatures the low boiling point gasses are used up, and that can have two effects, firstly due to the use of the latent heat, the liquid temperature drops, and may go so low that the butane cannot gas off, and secondly as the lighter fractions gas off, when they are gone you are left with butane which may not work if the temperature is to low.
I have seen some evidence of this where in cool temperatures the flame has obviously reduced in size, but it has also become more prone to lift off due to a low flame speed, this is a characteristic of propalyne. Butane has a higher flame speed and tends to hug the burner.
The pure gasses (99.9% or better) are reserved for test gasses used to type approve products and by comparison are very expensive.
From the Alde FAQ's section
Q.Propane or butane - what type of LPG (liquid petroleum gas) should I use?
Propane. Alde UK recommends the use of propane in all Alde (and SMEV) systems within the UK.
The operating temperature ranges of propane and butane are different, and will impact performance even at mild temperatures. The gas in a smaller bottle will cool quicker as it is tapped than in a larger bottle, and bottles chilled overnight may not warm to operating temperature again during the day. Thus the size of a bottle and the temperature at which it's stored will also impact performance.
BS 5482 Part 1 states, "For butane cylinders, satisfactory service might not be obtained at temperatures of less than 10
Q.Propane or butane - what type of LPG (liquid petroleum gas) should I use?
Propane. Alde UK recommends the use of propane in all Alde (and SMEV) systems within the UK.
The operating temperature ranges of propane and butane are different, and will impact performance even at mild temperatures. The gas in a smaller bottle will cool quicker as it is tapped than in a larger bottle, and bottles chilled overnight may not warm to operating temperature again during the day. Thus the size of a bottle and the temperature at which it's stored will also impact performance.
BS 5482 Part 1 states, "For butane cylinders, satisfactory service might not be obtained at temperatures of less than 10
Wow!!
A load of information, most of it is correct, some is wrong, but even the transcription from the Alde manual has some muddled facts in it.
Robert
A load of information, most of it is correct, some is wrong, but even the transcription from the Alde manual has some muddled facts in it.
Robert
We have converted to propane permanently - the final straw was getting Calor lite.
We use far less propane than butane so in the long run its alot cheaper and lighter.
We use far less propane than butane so in the long run its alot cheaper and lighter.
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