Questions - slightly legalish....... (if that's a word)

[LMH]

Hi

I tried to book a campsite and they wouldn't accept my dogs because of their breed. They also quoted some other breeds which are not accepted either (none of these breeds are on the DDA).

So, these questions came into my mind:

1. If your dog bit someone or someone elses dog whilst they were on the campsite, can the owners of the campsite be sued?

2. If your property is stolen from your caravan whilst you left it locked but unattended, can the owners of the campsite be sued?

3. If your child got run over on a campsite (by someone driving in excess of the speed limit sign displayed on the site), can the owners of the campsite be sued?

4. If you fall on a slippery surface in the toilet block for example can the owners be sued? Even if there were signs saying, caution, wet floor.

The campsite has notices on its park saying something like 'we accept no responsibility for injury to persons, theft of personal property, damage to persons property including caravan and car.

Sorry to go on, I'd just like people's opinions. I think I have the answers but I'd just like to hear what other people think.

Thanks.

Lisa

 

[JeremyClarksson]

They have the right to say no dogs on site if they wish, so I suppose there is no reason why they should not be able to define the breeds they will accept.

Their reasoning could not just be because of dangerous dogs but also because of big or yappy dog breeds.

I was surprised last week to be given medication for "very large dogs" last week for Toby our Labrador. I think of Mastiffs, St Bernards and Newfoundlands as very large - all in the perception I suppose.

The most aggressive dog I have come across recently was an American Bulldog/Shar Pei cross and I guess you could probably get that onto a site by saying it was a mongrel or Bulldog cross.

I think it would make more sense to use a general rule which probably applies on most sites now i.e. If your dog becomes a nuisance the site reserves the right to ask you to leave - isn't this the same sensible rule that should apply to all occupants of a site be they adults, children, dogs or parrots?

 

[Bigfoot]

Lisa,

With regards to Q1 : there is a stated case which (i think) says if your dog is dangerously out of control and bites another dog or person the owner is liable. It is possible the site could be sued successfully if it could be shown that they were negligent in allowing the dog there in the first place.

With regards to the others. I believe that, irrespective of any disclaimers displayed, if the campsite is proved to be negligent they could be sued.

Dont take this as gospel, I am a humble copper not a solicitor and in this day and age absolutely nothing surprises me !!!

 

[GrahamSouthBrum]

Lisa

I think the solution to your problem is when asked what breed your dogs are is cross breeds.

I know how proud you are of your dogs & this is not meant as an insult to you or your dogs.

Good luck

 

[LMH]

Hi

Thanks for the replies folks.

Graham, if they don't want certain breeds, that's their perogative, they won't see my money so that's fine. I don't want to discuss that bit further for obvious reasons.

The reason I asked the questions above is that on another forum someone said that the site owners were protecting themselves from being sued, should an incident occur with a dog. I don't think that they could be sued if something kicked off but I just wanted to hear the opinions of others.

Lisa

 

[JeremyClarksson]

Lisa

I think they could be sued (as Bigfoot)

If you went to a night club, a fight broke out and you got injured as a bystander or victim you should have the right to sue the club for not controlling the situation - they have an obligation for your safety.

You can apply this to the dog on site situation.

 

[Parksy]

In order to sucessfully sue a campsite in any of the scenarios that you mention then you would have to prove that they had been negligent in some way. Very costly and difficult.

I've seen camp / caravan sites that stipulate no dogs, not any specific breed just a blanket ban. If there are real reasons for this, such as nowhere to walk a dog at all, or maybe in the middle of a field of newborn lambs then fair enough. I can't help thinking that these sites are turning away more caravanners than they are attracting.

 

[LMH]

JC

That's slightly different. Nighclubs are strictly monitored under licensing laws. There are maximum occupancy figures for both seated and standing. They also have to conform with strict fire precaution legislation. Nightclubs and such are regularly inspected, during the day and also at night if deemed necessary.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it's easier to monitor fp in a nightclub than it is to monitor dogs on a campsite.

Does that make sense?

Lisa

 

[Guest]

I know people will jump all over me but I still work on the principle that people are humans and dogs are animals. Therefore I see no reason to give them equal rights.

People go out and buy dogs as pets, and they are entitled to do so, however, I have yet to see a dog buying a human, driving a car, or even pitching a caravan, but I am sure someone somewhere will prove me wrong.

So forgive me if I see them on a different plane of living things. I do not imply that they do not bring enjoyment to their owners, but please keep things in perspective. Dogs are entitled to protection, but they do not have human rights under law, as far as I am aware. Therefore if a campsite owner wants to make a living offering camping pitches i do not see that he/she should feel obliged to accept guests who insist on bringing their dogs, if he/she does not feel that they wish to accomodate them. Nor should he/she feel hounded because they have made a refusal. The reasons for refusal may not be clear to outsiders, but as owners they have the right, still (just), to decide what occurs on their own property. There are many sites that happily accomodate dogs, or any other pets you can care to imagine, but some campers may prefer to go to sites where that is not the case. As with the 'adult only' sites we should allow people freedom of choice.

With regard to the original questions posed in the 1st post, the current situation is a legal minefield and in each new case the boundaries of what can be subject to litigation is changing all the time. Therefore I can understand anyone who is running a publically accesible venue to be ultra cautious in what they allow. By voting for a government that adopted the human rights legislation we made the biggest stick for our own backs that we could never have imagined. So probably we have only ourselves to blame.

And to get back to the dog issue as mentioned. Every dog can, and will if necessary bite, but that does not mean to say they will do so 99.99% of the time. However, the circumstances in which the other 0.001% could occur are not always apparent, therefore to be completely safe one should always bear that in mind. A muzzle could be one way of ensuring to everyone that your dog is never going to cause a problem.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Sorry SL, but I will be the first to disagree with you.

You say "Therefore I see no reason to give them (dogs) equal rights".

I believe that hearing dogs or dogs for the blind should be given equal rights. They should have more rights than the scum that we are paying for to languish in our jails.

 

[LMH]

Hi SL

I don't believe I have written anywhere that dogs should be given equal rights. Dogs are dogs and should be treated as such.

A dog owner should never unwittingly or purposely give power to a dog living within the human pack. That, coupled with irresponsible dog ownership is one of the reasons incidents with dogs might occur.

If a campsite doesn't want to accept dogs including my own breed, fine that's ok. I'll go elsewhere.

My dogs are insured for public liability. I believe that pet insurance should be mandatory in dog ownership.

I don't understand your comment about dogs not having human rights under law. Dogs are dogs, not humans. Problems can arise when owners THINK their dogs are humans and give them equality.

Lisa

 

[LMH]

LB I agree dogs for the disabled etc, etc should be given more rights than some of the human scum on the street.

However, even a working dog has to know its place and its place is lower than any human in its pack (household) even if it can fetch the phone for you, open the washing machine and place the washing in it.

Lisa

 

[Guest]

Lisa has in certain ways confirmed the point I was trying to put across when she states 'owners that THINK that dogs should have equal rights'. There are parts of our society that have, at least in their own minds, elevated their pets above the other humans. For instance leaving all your estate to the dog does not really make a lot of sense. After all, can the dog really decide what to do? I also get cross when I see childrens playparks fenced off to a small area while the dogs are allowed to roam free in the larger area and then the owners allow the dogs inside even that small area, as 'they don't want it to wander off etc'. Another area is dog food. I wish I had a factory that made and sold the stuff, I would be a billionaire by now. The sheer variety on offer, at high prices often makes the normal food counters look rather plain. I recall in a French butchers shop admiring what to me looked like really good beef steak. On enquiring we were advised it 'was for les chiens'. Lucky b.....s.

These are just a few instances of where I feel some, but of course certainly not all, owners are completely 'out of touch with reality'. I will also tempt fate and pour petrol on the flames by stating that events such as Crufts can really bring out the worse in people. This is not an event for enthusiasts, it is for those totally obsessed by the canine world.

Maybe it is because I have been to places where children are begging in the streets and at the same time pampered pooches are being carried around in bags so I sometimes do not share the same point of view.

 

[LMH]

Blimey Scotch Lad

Well dog food, what can I say, you got me well and truly stumped on that one. LOL!

I guess you could compare it with horses, to the novice outsider who knows nothing about horses, they get grass in the summer and hay in the winter. No need for hard performance feeds and additives/equivite then?

The only thing I don't like about Crufts is the dancing/prancing dogs to music event. I don't like to see dogs being used as puppets.

Well, I have to disagree with you on Crufts now. This time last year, we were at Chapel Lane CC site (which was lovely) and I was getting Diesel ready for Crufts the following day.

Even the husband and child turned out to watch us that day. And what a brilliant day it was. It was also an excellent PR opportunity for the Stafford as I can't even guess how many people approached our bench and asked to stroke Diesel, well over a hundred I'd say. It also gave us the opportunity to answer questions and dispel misconceptions about the breed and PROMOTE responsible dog ownership.

Lisa

 

[LMH]

Oh and this is probably not a good time to mention that seven years ago, I placed an order for an English leather collar (hand made to order) with six red jewels and a gold plated nameplate on it for my other dog. (From a stall at Crufts).

Lisa

 

[GrahamSouthBrum]

Has it come yet. 7 years is a long time to wait )

Are you stopping at Chaple lane again this year. Not far from me

 

[Guest]

Lisa,

I have no doubts about your enthusiasm for the breed you support. I would also tentatively suggest that the people who approached your stand were also interested in the canine fraternity, and so to speak were already 'converted' to the 'cause'. You mention that dogs should not be used as puppets, dare I suggest that by merely being present you have acknowledged acceptance of this.

I am not quite sure of the connection to horses. As far as I am aware no horse gets their meals from a tin, unless I am in the wrong shops. But I see aisles of the stuff for dogs in Tesco's etc, and of course cats, who also seem to have designed menues for their palates that sometimes make me feel that I am in the wrong body. 'Tasty chicken with added fish' Sometimes sounds a little better than beans on toast, especially as the cost per tin is usually very high.

There is an argument that goes that you can define a country's wealth on the number of dogs. If it is a poor country then the only dogs you will see are guard dogs or farm dogs as they have a job to do. All others are eaten, or are unaffordable by the general population. Using this hypothesis indicates the UK as a very rich country, but does not seem to be supported by analysis of the general population. So that indicates to me that there is an emphasis on priorities that maybe should not be the case. Do you give the dog a tin of PAL, enriched with maribone jelly, or whatever, and the kids a packet of crisps

? So, I come back to my original point that in the UK dogs, and posible other animals have a position in society that is not really justifiable.

 

[Guest]

PS

I did see some time back pictures of a young lady wearing a diamond studded collar, and rather fetching it looked, especially as her other garments were missing.

If she wanted to be my pet, then I am willing.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

SL have you ever stopped to think why people are loyal and loving to their dogs? Quite simply it's because they return that love, faithfulness and loyalty. They help the blind, the deaf, the sick, they help to control law and order. Dogs will never lie or cheat on you, they might steal the odd piece of meat if left lying about but your money is safe.

The odd few may bite, their dumps may be unpleasant but in areas where people are more educated to this problem dogdumps are extremely rare as it is where I live. Not all dog owners have dogs as pets, they are more a status symbol to some like chavs but these people are far and few. From having a dog as a pet usually makes one a caring person, not just for dogs but all life in general.

Regarding food, yes it is expensive but that is something I've never heard a dog owner complain about so it comes over strange seeing you, who doesn't own a dog, complaining of the cost... hehheh! :O)

To put bows in the dogs fur and booties on its feet is going over the top but how many of these eccentric people do you know or see out walking their dogs?

 

[LMH]

The connection to horses SL means:

If you have a performance horse (XC or SJ or hunter, hurdler or flat or even a hack which is doing quite a bit of work), hay alone will not sustain it. It needs more fuel. In fact, it'll breakdown without high protein food and some supplements. Those foods are sold in bags and some in tins.

Years ago, dogs were fed on scraps, I haven't got a problem with that. However, a lot of todays foods are laden with salt, sugar and additives. Bad news not only for humans but for canines too. Therefore, we buy dog food which has been manufactured to meet the needs of different dogs. Whether they are lap dogs or working dogs, you should feed appropriately.

You couldn't feed a greyhound in training on Chappie (well, you could if you wanted that to breakdown too).

If you're interested, there is an alternative to manufactured dog food but not many people would like it. It's called the BARF diet and consists of:

Lots of raw meaty bones, e.g. chicken wings, chicken necks, rabbit, oxtail, minced meats, lamb shanks, eggs and their shells, liver, heart, fish, yoghurt, veg (pulped), fruit, garlic.

There's nothing wrong with throwing the odd dead rabbit (with fur etc) in the kennel too but there are issues around that which we won't go into on here.

What I mean about the dancing with dogs display is that I see that as a type of circus trick and even as a small child, I strongly disagreed with that sort of thing.

If you think people pamper their dogs too much in this country SL, you should see how some horses are looked after. Owner gets up at 3.30am to ride during the hot months, horse stabled during the day and out at night (less flies about)...... rugs costing

 

[LMH]

PS

I did see some time back pictures of a young lady wearing a diamond studded collar, and rather fetching it looked, especially as her other garments were missing.

If she wanted to be my pet, then I am willing.

Blimey Scotch Lad, that's more like it (in a non lesbian type of way).

Lisa

 

[LMH]

SL have you ever stopped to think why people are loyal and loving to their dogs? Quite simply it's because they return that love, faithfulness and loyalty. They help the blind, the deaf, the sick, they help to control law and order. Dogs will never lie or cheat on you, they might steal the odd piece of meat if left lying about but your money is safe.

The odd few may bite, their dumps may be unpleasant but in areas where people are more educated to this problem dogdumps are extremely rare as it is where I live. Not all dog owners have dogs as pets, they are more a status symbol to some like chavs but these people are far and few. From having a dog as a pet usually makes one a caring person, not just for dogs but all life in general.

Regarding food, yes it is expensive but that is something I've never heard a dog owner complain about so it comes over strange seeing you, who doesn't own a dog, complaining of the cost... hehheh! :O)

To put bows in the dogs fur and booties on its feet is going over the top but how many of these eccentric people do you know or see out walking their dogs?

Well said

 

[Guest]

I have never criticised having loyalty to a dog, what I do criticise is inflating the position of a dog above what it actually is... a dumb animal. And I use the word 'dumb' with reason. Anyone who has ever seen a dog being teased by a cat knows that there is definitely a difference in the animal kingdom. And of course, let us put it this way, if it had any sense it would run a mile from humans. Loyalty is one word to describe it, others may use diferent words.

I also think I have stated on this Forum that I indeed have owned a dog in the past, but recognised that my current lifestyle was not appropriate to having one now, and being able to give it what it would require for a normal life.

I am sorry but I also vehemently disagree with your near to last statement. If you feel that the definition of a caring person is owning a dog, then I will, not buy into that. Being a caring person goes well beyond that. I also feel there has been enough reports of uncaring dog owners to dispute that one.

Having a dog, or cat or whatever as a companion because it gives you a purpose in your life is valid, but please do not make the case that having one makes one a better person.

 

[LMH]

A dog is a pack animal. If left to its own devices, it would roam with its pack doing all the things which come naturally, scenting, hunting, chasing, holding, chewing, play fighting. The alpha male is leader.

As dogs can't do that in this country (well, they shouldn't be allowed to), they are perfectly happy to live with us - their human pack providing their is a clear and consistent leader (human) in the household.

I'd say a dog does have sense, that's why the average dog doesn't run a mile from a human. We can influence the developing mind of a young dog.

Lisa

 

[Guest]

oops, I am sorry I missed Lisa's last post.

Trying to answer 2 people at the same time.

I have no doubt you buy the appropriate food, but if the supermarket stuff is so bad, why does it sell so well? Supermarkets only stock items that sell fast.

You are also missing possibly the point I was trying to make. That the UK at times seems far more interested in animals than people. I regret that I consider people more important, even although I do accept that at times it does appear to be a lost cause and working with animals is so much easier, and probably rewarding.

As for taking my wife to 'hostile' countries then i can only state it was a part of the job, and no job meant no salary and no food for the children. My wife accepted the reasons for going and tolerated them as she recognised the rewards for all of us. For that I admire her and respect her. In my industry there are people currently working in parts of the world where law and order are unlikely, and food may even be an issue. Local customs are often totally alien to any civilised human being, but that is part and parcel of the industry. Accept it, or find another career. But it does pay well, and of course without us, nobody would be camping except with a rucksack and a tent?!