Read and understand the contract before you sign!!!!!!

[Dustydog]

Good idea except American Corporate Solicitors are probably not well versed in UK consumer laws and other legislation etc. Actually that applies to many UK solicitors as we found out to our cost.
You would need a specialist in UK consumer law for an genuine opinion otherwise you will get conflicting views as per the two threads currently running.

I was thinking of their London based guys. When you consider the number of U.K. magazines, number of Printers, Employees,Premises, Libel Actions, advertising etc etc they will have plenty of English Law experts Whose companies will no doubt have a U.K. Consumer expert. Google the number of U.K. magazines and digital subsidiaries, Go Compare. They will have experts.BTW I’m in Bath next week, their HO😉Just a thought 🤪

 

[Parksy]

The varied opinions emanating from a number of people on this thread are impressive. I may say the same about another thread. No names.

I wonder if via our Mods ,PCv Editorial and Future plc the two threads could be referred to their Corporate Solicitors for a Legal Opinion This could become a future article for a number of the Future Plc magazines ?

The best way to bring this thread to the attention of PCv magazine would be to write to the editor as part of the 'readers letters' page.
If the magazine editorial staff considered the questions and opinions raised by this issue worthy of wider publicity, they would perhaps publish an article on the pitfalls of deposit payment and the likelihood of a deposit being refunded in the event of cancellation.
Forum moderators are put in place partly to avoid Future plc having to spend money on legal fees, so it's not in our remit to trouble the company legal department at Future plc.
Write to the editor, who knows, you might win a set of new Millencos. 😉

 

[Buckman]

I was thinking of their London based guys. When you consider the number of U.K. magazines, number of Printers, Employees,Premises, Libel Actions, advertising etc etc they will have plenty of English Law experts Whose companies will no doubt have a U.K. Consumer expert. Google the number of U.K. magazines and digital subsidiaries, Go Compare. They will have experts.BTW I’m in Bath next week, their HO😉Just a thought 🤪

They may have an expert on consumer law from their point, but not for the consumer of obvious reasons. They aren't known as Coporate lawyers for nothing!

 

[Dustydog]

They may have an expert on consumer law from their point, but not for the consumer of obvious reasons. They aren't known as Coporate lawyers for nothing!

True, I take the point. But even the corporate Lawyers have to be able to see both sides. I’ll follow Parksy’s advice. Nothing much else to do at the moment . Maxed out on TV!

 

[Jcloughie]

Thanks that’s interesting we had similar aspects such as LD and most contracts had a retention to cover a period after completion, to ensure defects were cleared and warranty obligations were met. But they weren’t penalties but contract conditions based on agreed levels of performance. However the Supreme Court in 2015 did endorse the concept of penalties in certain circumstances. So things have moved on since I first retired in 2000.

Penalties in construction

Penalties in construction - Designing Buildings - Share your construction industry knowledge. In construction, the term 'penalty' typically refers to a financial payment imposed in the event of a breach of contract.

www.designingbuildings.co.uk

That link is a great find, very supportive of what I have been saying re Penalties re LD‘s (LAD’s). Like you I was taught repeatedly that Penalty clauses were not enforceable. The words were never mentioned in Construction contracts or that reason. I think that change came in during the 60‘s.

Reading the link, it appears to me that were they can now be legitimately used are specific circumstances and are perhaps more like fines.

A lot of the Construction Contracts I worked with on multi million pound rebuilds did contain “Penalty” clauses or as we knew them “ Failure to perform”. Late completion penalties were included as indeed at the other end bonus awards.The larger contracts also allowed the Principal to hold retention monies for specific periods after the end of Completion for unforeseen snags etc.
Seems to me Clive there is no such thing as a Standard contract😁😁Gone full circle now!

Is it is possible that the penalty clauses you refer to were just referred too in that way, colloquially?

These are the ones I am familiar with and, for reasons I have already stated, that is not a clause that is used. Admittedly, I am well out of date.

JCT

JCT - Designing Buildings - Share your construction industry knowledge. The Joint Contracts Tribunal (JCT) was formed by the Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) in 1931 when the first JCT standard form of building contract was issued (although the forms were not referred to as ‘JCT’...

www.designingbuildings.co.uk

LD’s (LAD’s). are often call Penalties, but have essential differences. Nevertheless are often called penalties.

John

 

[Buckman]

Maxed out on TV!

Known that feeling especially over the past 2 weeks.

 

[Jcloughie]

20 years ago our local woodwork school proprietor died suddenly. The Landlord refused to cancel the Lease making the widow pay even though she couldn’t afford it. The entire Town was enraged but nothing we could do.
Taking the Profs fictional case on this thread only let me ask, “Is it fair a bereaved widow is stil liable for the rent or in Profs case if the prospective purchaser’s situation changes whereby he cannot now afford the caravan should he still have to complete or lose the deposit?
Never mind the Legal stuff, what happened to common decency or in my day Contracts with Force Majeure clauses to protect against this very scenario? Drugs kicking in now, ah sleep.

That broaden things out! Force Majeure is often there in the ultra small print, but if missing can, I think, be held by the courts as implied. I think this was used a lot during covid.

There is a huge difference between a business contract and a consumer contract so not even sure why they are being compared. Even in business you would employ lawyers to check the contract before signing as the T&Cs would be difficult to understand. The same cannot be said for a consumer contract.
Just to add that it is my understanding this is a consumer forum and not one involved in commercial enterprises? Is it possible to stick to the consumer side of the contracts.
As stated earlier, it is easy to state that if you do not like the T&Cs walk away. That would mean no vehicle, no caravan, no home and the list is endless!

Essentially they have to follow exactly the same basis in English (or whatever countries) law. however, there are differences in complexity and the degree to which due diligence is done and to the ability to alter and ammend.

Good contracts, particularly those aimed as the consumer, aim to use plain English. At one time they deliberately used legal speak.

John

 

[Buckman]

20 years ago our local woodwork school proprietor died suddenly. The Landlord refused to cancel the Lease making the widow pay even though she couldn’t afford it. The entire Town was enraged but nothing we could do.
Taking the Profs fictional case on this thread only let me ask, “Is it fair a bereaved widow is stil liable for the rent or in Profs case if the prospective purchaser’s situation changes whereby he cannot now afford the caravan should he still have to complete or lose the deposit?
Never mind the Legal stuff, what happened to common decency or in my day Contracts with Force Majeure clauses to protect against this very scenario? Drugs kicking in now, ah sleep.

However if the school proprietor had been a limited company, the landlord would not have had a leg to stand on. In this case the LL would have been entitled to claim from the the proprietor's estate until the premises were re-let. Sounds harsh but that is the way it is with the law.

 

[Dustydog]

I have taken up Parksy’s suggestion and written to our Editor in chief Sarah Wakely.
You never know , it may lead to something🤔🤔👍👍

 

[Jcloughie]

Enshrined in UK law is the principle that a retailer is not obliged to sell you anything, in essence the potential customer makes an offer to purchase, and provided the seller is not using any illegal prejudice they can choose if they want to sell to you or not. It is up to both the seller and customer to agree the terms of the transaction.

These days the process has largely been preempted (simplified?) by retailers showing the advised retail price, and having prewritten T&C's., but in principle there is nothing to stop customers trying to renegotiate price and conditions.

As it stands, there is no requirement for a company to have pre written T&C's for their sales, and consequently, except for the customers statutory rights, there is no regulatory control of what they can include.

In a sellers market its likely the seller can be quite resolute in how they tie the contract up , but in a buyers market the seller may need to consider the customers wishes a bit more to prevent loosing sales to competitors.

As for what is actually written in the T*&C's, most companies these will have used a legal advisor to produce them, but as they do not have to be formally approved by any regulatory body before they are issued, they can include almost anything.

Again in the UK it is generally accepted that when a customer and retailer agree a contract,it's governed by the agreed terms, and the law will not intervene, unless one or other of the parties asserts there has been a breach of contract, or one party asserts one or more term is unfair,and of course in these modern times if one or more of the consumers protective rights have been breached.

T&C's may not be backed by specific legislation, they do form part of a contract in common law terms, and are likely to be upheld, unless they are found to be unfair or in breach of specific area's where legislation has been enacted.

This means customers cannot ride rough shod over T&C's they should be understood before entering into a contract.

I think that that is an excellent summary. I feel your opinions on certain aspects has altered a little over your posts on both threads. But it’s good that we live and learn.

John

 

[Raywood]

Enshrined in UK law is the principle that a retailer is not obliged to sell you anything, in essence the potential customer makes an offer to purchase, and provided the seller is not using any illegal prejudice they can choose if they want to sell to you or not. It is up to both the seller and customer to agree the terms of the transaction.

These days the process has largely been preempted (simplified?) by retailers showing the advised retail price, and having prewritten T&C's., but in principle there is nothing to stop customers trying to renegotiate price and conditions.

As it stands, there is no requirement for a company to have pre written T&C's for their sales, and consequently, except for the customers statutory rights, there is no regulatory control of what they can include.

In a sellers market its likely the seller can be quite resolute in how they tie the contract up , but in a buyers market the seller may need to consider the customers wishes a bit more to prevent loosing sales to competitors.

As for what is actually written in the T*&C's, most companies these will have used a legal advisor to produce them, but as they do not have to be formally approved by any regulatory body before they are issued, they can include almost anything.

Again in the UK it is generally accepted that when a customer and retailer agree a contract,it's governed by the agreed terms, and the law will not intervene, unless one or other of the parties asserts there has been a breach of contract, or one party asserts one or more term is unfair,and of course in these modern times if one or more of the consumers protective rights have been breached.

T&C's may not be backed by specific legislation, they do form part of a contract in common law terms, and are likely to be upheld, unless they are found to be unfair or in breach of specific area's where legislation has been enacted.

This means customers cannot ride rough shod over T&C's they should be understood before entering into a contract.

I agree with the basis of the post. You do not need a written contract but if you do not have one then a combination of common law and legislation applies mainly the CPA. Frankly it is better to have a written contract just to clarify everything as without one things can get into arguments where it is simply one persons word against the other on many subjects.
With contracts between a commercial seller and a member of the public there are rules on fairness which a court can use to override anything it feels unfair but this can be difficult and in many cases unless there is a precedent, the outcome can be unpredictable. In these circumstances it is better if you read and understand the contract terms so you know what the seller is trying to impose by way of conditions.

 

[Dustydog]

As an aside here’s why you pay a deposit. Note the promised delivery times.
This from my local dealer four miles away!

Order today for collection this month​

Would you like to collect your new caravan this month? If you order today we can guarantee delivery in April on selected models from Bailey, Swift & Adria. Furthermore, we are starting to release some of the display models to improve availability. Contact our sales teams in Swindon, Oxford or Reading for more information.​

New Swift Caravans​

New Bailey Caravans​

New Adria Caravans​

 

[Jcloughie]

As an aside here’s why you pay a deposit. Note the promised delivery times.
This from my local dealer four miles away!

​ Order today for collection this month​

Would you like to collect your new caravan this month? If you order today we can guarantee delivery in April on selected models from Bailey, Swift & Adria. Furthermore, we are starting to release some of the display models to improve availability. Contact our sales teams in Swindon, Oxford or Reading for more information.​

​ New Swift Caravans​

​ New Bailey Caravans​

​ New Adria Caravans​

I wonder if that is indicative of waiting lists reducing, if it is, prices will come down too. I had to wait for some months for mine in 2015.

John

 

[Buckman]

As an aside here’s why you pay a deposit. Note the promised delivery times.
This from my local dealer four miles away!

​ Order today for collection this month​

Would you like to collect your new caravan this month? If you order today we can guarantee delivery in April on selected models from Bailey, Swift & Adria. Furthermore, we are starting to release some of the display models to improve availability. Contact our sales teams in Swindon, Oxford or Reading for more information.​

​ New Swift Caravans​

​ New Bailey Caravans​

​ New Adria Caravans​

I have a pretty shrewed idea of who the dealer is with those branches. At one point we travelled to the Swindon branch and were very disappointed so did not buy.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think that that is an excellent summary. I feel your opinions on certain aspects has altered a little over your posts on both threads. But it’s good that we live and learn.

John

I'm sorry John, but I have not had to revised my understanding at all. All my responses have been given consistently in accordance with the overview I gave above.

But just to remind you, This thread was specifically started to remind every one of the wisdom of taking time to read and understand the full implications of a contract or policy before you agree to it. It was never about the legality or otherwise of T&C's.

I openly admit I was triggered into creating this thread by the recent events in another thread, but it was never specifically about that thread. Its other people who have tried to link it.

 

[Jcloughie]

I'm sorry John, but I have not had to revised my understanding at all. All my responses have been given consistently in accordance with the overview I gave above.

But just to remind you, This thread was specifically started to remind every one of the wisdom of taking time to read and understand the full implications of a contract or policy before you agree to it. It was never about the legality or otherwise of T&C's.

I openly admit I was triggered into creating this thread by the recent events in another thread, but it was never specifically about that thread. Its other people who have tried to link it.

I will not go into it, but there are certainly a couple of things you have said which you have since tempered, which I actually think is wise. Admittedly some were in the other thread. But for example you have moved from.

#1 But it was the customer who broke the contract, and incorrectly assumed the deposit would be returned.
They were surprised and dismayed when the dealer agreed to cancel the order but wouldn't return the deposit, citing the cancellation clauses in the contract, which clearly stated the deposit would not be returned if the customer cancelled the order.
(In your own reference to the other thread, making this thread actually about the legality or otherwise of T&C's.
I do wonder why you object to others citing the other tread when you did yourself in #1).

To

#44 Again in the UK it is generally accepted that when a customer and retailer agree a contract, it's governed by the agreed terms, and the law will not intervene, unless one or other of the parties asserts there has been a breach of contract, or one party asserts one or more term is unfair, and of course in these modern times if one or more of the consumers protective rights have been breached.

John

 

[otherclive]

I will not go into it, but there are certainly a couple of things you have said which you have since tempered, which I actually think is wise. Admittedly some were in the other thread. But for example you have moved from.

#1 But it was the customer who broke the contract, and incorrectly assumed the deposit would be returned.
They were surprised and dismayed when the dealer agreed to cancel the order but wouldn't return the deposit, citing the cancellation clauses in the contract, which clearly stated the deposit would not be returned if the customer cancelled the order.
(In your own reference to the other thread, making this thread actually about the legality or otherwise of T&C's.
I do wonder why you object to others citing the other tread when you did yourself in #1).

To

#44 Again in the UK it is generally accepted that when a customer and retailer agree a contract, it's governed by the agreed terms, and the law will not intervene, unless one or other of the parties asserts there has been a breach of contract, or one party asserts one or more term is unfair, and of course in these modern times if one or more of the consumers protective rights have been breached.

John

Surely to explain the reasoning behind this thread it was necessary for Prof J to make reference to the other thread in his post #1. I am having difficulty trying to understand where you want to take this thread.

 

[ProfJohnL]

John,

This is becoming tedious in the extreme.

I have not contradicted myself in this thread, and I have been at pains to declare there is no specific link to any other person or thread, other than the general principle involved of taking a diligent approach before agreeing a contract.

I used part of the recent thread to demonstrate how failing to understand an agreement can lead to difficulties which would have been avoided if the customer had fully understood the implications of the agreement he was agreeing to. If the full implications were appreciated and found to be unacceptable before signing the prospective customer could have refused to sign, and the contract would not have been created.

 

[Parksy]

The personal bickering really needs to stop guys.
I've deleted one comment and will be watching this thread to see that it doesn't become an antagonistic battle.
I don't want to start wielding the big stick by deleting further comments or locking the thread, so if there's nothing constructive to add, scroll on by.

 

[Jcloughie]

The personal bickering really needs to stop guys.
I've deleted one comment and will be watching this thread to see that it doesn't become an antagonistic battle.
I don't want to start wielding the big stick by deleting further comments or locking the thread, so if there's nothing constructive to add, scroll on by.

Totally agree, I have no intension of continuing, everything I referred to is clearly recorded. Than you for your patience.

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you Parksy

 

[Raywood]

To be honest this thread has probably run its course. The basic point is that many people do not read the contract terms and they should, or they may not realise what they are letting themselves in for. Possibly it might be better as a sticky thread now so any newcomers could read it rather than debate it further.

 

[Buckman]

To be honest this thread has probably run its course. The basic point is that many people do not read the contract terms and they should, or they may not realise what they are letting themselves in for. Possibly it might be better as a sticky thread now so any newcomers could read it rather than debate it further.

Many will probably only read it after they have signed and many that have read the thread still will not object if there is what appears to be an unfair clause. They know that if they object, they will not get the goods at that dealer or probably not anywhere else so they sign anyway! Dealers have us other a barrel!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Many will probably only read it after they have signed and many that have read the thread still will not object if there is what appears to be an unfair clause. They know that if they object, they will not get the goods at that dealer or probably not anywhere else so they sign anyway! Dealers have us other a barrel!

Whilst that is almost certainly true in practice , it doesn't preclude the principal of bargaining to try and renegotiate the terms, I suspect the general public have lost the skill of bargaining, or the knowledge that its actually still possible.

 

[Dustydog]

Whilst that is almost certainly true in practice , it doesn't preclude the principal of bargaining to try and renegotiate the terms, I suspect the general public have lost the skill of bargaining, or the knowledge that its actually still possible.

Mea Culpa! I have just booked two sites but not studied every word of their T & Cs. No hope for the wicked😉😉