Rear view - caravan or campervan?

[PaulRT]

Hii All
I have been caravanning for just 10 years, averaging about 6k miles a year towing. The only two near accidents have both involved a car cutting in sharply in front of me. The first was several years ago on a single carriageway section of the A5 in Wales when an overtaking car pulled in so sharply that his nearside wing mirror removed my extension m irror. The second was yesterday when a car overtook me at the very end of a dual carriageway section of the A49, cutting in so sharply that only a severe swerve to the left on my part avoided an accident - fortunately the caravan pulled straight out of a potential snake. (I have to admit to a previous momentary lack of concentration on my part, as I normally check the mirror for such idiots towards the end of dualled sections).
However, it has now ocurred to me that, with the ever increasing proportion of campervans/motor homes on the road compared with caravans, are some drivers assuming it is just a campervan they are overtaking (without towing vehicle)? From the rear they look very similar to an untrained eye. Do we need a clear recognised sign for the rear of a caravan (perhaps a picture of car plus caravan) to emphasise and announce the difference?
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Paul

 

[xtrailman]

I have fitted a rear view, and reversing camera this year.
Of the two the rear view is by far the most useful.
Its really useful, being able to see approaching traffic.

 

[GeorgeandAde]

Hi Paul and Ray.
I may be completly wrong(and I apologise if I am),but I drove a 8 wheeler tipper lorry for a while last year with a reversing/rear view fitted.
I was informed that it had to be used at all times whilst working in quarries,but it was illegal to use on the public highway.
Maybe someone "in the know" could put me right and perhaps a lot of caravanners who may be using the rear view camera whilst driving.
Adrian

 

[John_374564913]

It is illegal to have a screen showing images whilst driving, for example if you purchase a car with a TV or video player it will only work when the hand brake is applied. Relaease the hand brake and the screen will go blank.

Likewise with reversing camaras the imiage is only available when reverse gear is selected.

There are kits available and any DIY person could fit a camara that works whilst the vehicle is moving , however if involved ina serious accident and it came to light that the camara was working at the time of the accident then the driver would be charged with DRIVING WITHOUT DUE CARE AND ATTENTIONE and or DANGEROUSE DRIVING.

John

 

[GeorgeandAde]

Now theres a man who knows his stuff.

Thanks John.
Adrian

 

[xtrailman]

Now theres a man who knows his stuff.

Thanks John.
Adrian

Sorry but i think there both wrong.
The sat nav map has moving pictures.
You are not allowed to watch a TV, or DVD, while driving.
Completely different.
Show me an official link that says other wise?
Since i have being using the camera, i can see behind me, along with the wing mirrors, there is now virtually no blind spot.
How does that make it unsafe driving?
While towing, i would normally only have the restricted view of the wing mirror, that has all changed.

 

[GeorgeandAde]

Not sure I see the difference in watching a TV whilst driving from the drivers seat,or watching a rear view camera.
I would have thought that they were both illegal.
I find that(apart from reversing the caravan)I can see everything I need to see in the car and extension mirrors.
Im still "sat on the fence" with this one,but am waiting for an email from Avon and Somerset Constabulary to advise me of the law regarding the above.
Adrian

 

[chrisbee1]

The legality of “reversing” cameras being on when the vehicle is moving forward has been debated recently on another thread. My interpretation is that it is legal if it shows a view of the road “adjacent” to the vehicle. Quite what is “adjacent” is a bit of a grey area. Be that as it may, I am just back from my first outing with newly installed camera switched on permanently. I don’t really see a great difference between looking at a moving image in a rear view mirror driving solo or an identical one on a screen when hitched up. I hope Adrian will inform us of the outcome of his query but going from past experience even that may not be the correct answer. The police have been known to put a different slant on things than the courts do.

 

[Mike_S]

I have recently installed a rearview system on my caravan and wouldn't be without it now. As regards to its legallity I refer you to the following

Road Vehicle (construction and use)Regulations 1986 (regulation 109) states
"The driver must not be in a position to see, whether directly or by reflection, any TV or other like apparatus used to display anything other than information about the state of the vehicle, location, to assist the driver to see the adjacent road, or to assist the driver to reach his destination"

Page 58 The Caravan Club Magazine Feb 2011

Mike

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
while there have been a lenghty debates about this on other threads I have yet to be convinced that rear veiw cameras are illegal when used in conjunction with caravans after all the camera IS only substituting the rear view mirror of the car that is now been obscured by the van the camera gives exactly the same view as would a mirror. this is not the same as watching a film on DVD whilst driving.

colin

 

[chrisbee1]

To get back to the OP's question about the difficulty distinguishing between motorhomes and caravans, all caravans should be fitted with triangular reflectors. The trouble is these now tend to be incorporated in the rear lens cluster making them difficult to see in daylight. It is also not unknown for some owners to fit them to motorhomes, presumably not realising they are illegal on solo vehicles.

 

[John_374564913]

BELOW IS AN EXTRACT FROM THE UK LAW REGARDING A SCREEN OTHER THAN SAT-NAV THEY FALL INTO THE CATOGORY OF MOBILE PHONE
UK TRAFFIC LAW

Vehicle Defects
These offences relate to the condition of your vehicle and are generally governed by the Construction and Use Regulations. The legislation is detailed and not always logical or easy to follow.
Offences mainly involve "using", "permitting", or "causing" the use of the vehicle concerned and all these concepts have particular legal definitions.
The Construction and Use Regulations mainly cover the maintenance and/or operation of lights, tyres, brakes, mirrors, mascots, wings, emissions, silencers, noise, warning instruments, fuel tanks. They also apply to the sale of defective vehicles. On conviction the Court has a discretionary power of disqualification or can endorse your licence with 3 penalty points.
You will be able to avoid an endorsement if you can establish that you did not know and had no reason to suspect that an offence was being committed.
The Regulations also cover the use of television and video screens and mobile telephones. Generally the use of hand held devices is prohibited although there is an exemption covering usage in a genuine emergency.
Finally, the Regulations also cover overloading offences and dangerous or insecure loads and whilst these are primarily aimed at drivers of commercial vehicles and their operators, they do apply to private vehicles and trailers too. Again exemptions from endorsement apply and there are specific defences available if the vehicle is proceeding to or from a weighbridge, or if the weight limit was not exceeded by more than 5% in certain circumstances.

 

[John_374564913]

I have been in touch with cheshire police regarding this question and their answer is below.

The UK Law states that no monitor should be viewable whilst the vehicle is in forward motion

It was admitted that it conflicts with Sat-Nav monitors and agree the law needs to be ammended but in reality you could even be prosocuted for having a Sat-Nav as the law stands today in the UK.

 

[chrisbee1]

Hi John, as I said in a previous post the police’s interpretation of the law is not always the same as everyone else’s. Until a court rules on this subject I will continue to use my camera.

You may want to draw Cheshire police’s attention to the relevant section of the C&U regulations, specifically regulation 109, which clearly states:

Regulation 109 Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986

No person shall drive or cause or permit to be driven a motor vehicle on a road if the driver is in such a position as to be able to see, directly or by reflection, a television or similar apparatus except apparatus used to display information :-

• about the state of the vehicle or its location or the road location,

• to assist the driver to see the road adjacent to the vehicle, or

• to assist the driver to reach his destination

 

[John_374564913]

Chris

I think if it went to court and had a good solicitor then you could win the case by showing to the judge that it is an instrument that ASSISTS THE DRIVER TO REACH HIS DESTINATION

but if I am asked the direct question then I must answer NO as it is clear for the moment that it is down to individual officer interpretation. and clarification and or justification would mean a trip to court.
No doubt many people on this site will disagree with me simply because it is me or they have a different interpratation but it seems as though we both agree for the moment.
John

 

[xtrailman]

Not on the unicorn. completely separate.

Sorry reply to post 10.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Road Pro used to say on their camera section that it is legal to use a rear view camera so long as it is being used as a rear view mirror would be used
There are several camera screens available that cover the rear view mirror and double as a mirror when not in use as a screen
I have been using a rear view camera on the caravan for several years and find it a big help especially when overtaking as it allows you to see clearly that you are in front of the overtaken vehicle and with many caravans now having no rear window it gives the same view as used to be available through a large rear window if the towing vehicle was high enough!

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I just copied this from a vendor of rear view camera systems website
Road Pro used to have very similar wording at one time

The legality of rear-view camera systems
When being used in the same way as a rear-view mirror would be, a rear-view monitor is absolutely legal. Be careful, however, that the monitor does not obscure the driver's vision as that could constitute an offence

 

[PaulRT]

Hey Guys
As sometimes happens on this forum,, my original posting has been rather hijacked!
Even if I had a rear view camera (legal or illegal) it would not have affected the two incidents. The interesting point is that red triangles at the rear are supposed to identify a towed unit, but how many drivers recognise this? In addition, as someone has commented, on many caravans, including mine (Swift Challenger) the triangles are incorporated in the light cluster and do not really stand ot at all.
Cheers
Paul

 

[GeorgeandAde]

I agree with you Paul.
There should be some sort of warning on the rear of the vehicle being towed to warn of the legnth.
I think that most of the drivers who pull in and brake sharply do not realise how much longer the stopping distance is of a vehicle when towing a caravan.
Maybe they just have to get in front of you no matter what...caravan in front=a couple of minutes longer on their journey time.

Still waiting for a reply from police about cameras,but i think Johns earlier reply from Cheshire police would sum it up.
Adrian

 

[Gafferbill]

…..vehicles cutting in after overtaking longer vehicles is an age old problem well known to HGV drivers.
It is simply bad driving.
Large orange and red reflective signs on the rear of HGVs, some stating ‘Long Vehicle’, fail to stop this practice so I do not think anything can be done for caravans towers.
You may like to note that reversing cameras are compulsory and have to be working at all times on refuse collection vehicles.
They are not illegal on other vehicles as long as they do not obstruct the drivers vision of the road.