Reich Caravan Weight Control

[Surfer]

We recently purchased one of these to make sure that we complied with the law plus we wanted to see if the caravan could take the extra of an air conditioner. What a disappointment!
The unit arrived in a large box with no packing inside indicating that the unit could have been thrown around in the box during transit. Anyway it arrived yesterday and today we went down to the twin axle caravan to weigh it. We took the caravan out of storage and found a level piece of road to do the measurements.
Taking the caravan across I was surprised to see that each wheel was weighing well over 500kg. Anyway thought ti would average out however when we did the totals it indicated the caravan weight was nearly 2200kgs or nearly 300kg over the MTPLM. Obviously we thought we had made a mistake and did it twice more with similar results. I knew that there was no way it could be that far over the MTPLM. the noseweight reading was 175kg however on using the Milenco calibrated nose weight gauge it read 105kg.
Finally decided to take the caravan to a public weigh bridge a couple of miles away. On arrival we were told that the weigh bridge had been re-calibrated earlier that week and was out by about 2kgs. Pulled the caravan onto the bridge, disconnected it to weigh it and the total weight was 1860kg. Gross train weight of combination was 4200kg.
If we were to go ahead with air con we would need to lose about 92kg to stay within the MTPLM, however a theory of thought says that of the 1860kg approximately 105kg is transferred onto the tow ball thus if pulled over and they weigh the caravan, it should be under 1800kg? Any thoughts on this?

 

[JTQ]

I think like most of us before, who actually get things weighed, you have found you are well overweight.

I doubt you have the potential to shed much without being ruthless and or transferring a lot to the car, but with four dogs that will be a challenge.

I doubt The Driver and Vehicle agency will be unduly put out, relative to most your axle loading is okay, at least on the van; what did your car's rear axle come to as you were a bit over the permitted chassis noseweight.

Do Reich claim the weighing system is okay for twin axle vans? I would be concerned about its suitability where the tandem wheel must still be playing some role, but not completely with the very small lift over the machine.

 

[Surfer]

I think like most of us before, who actually get things weighed, you have found you are well overweight.

I doubt you have the potential to shed much without being ruthless and or transferring a lot to the car, but with four dogs that will be a challenge.

I doubt The Driver and Vehicle agency will be unduly put out, relative to most your axle loading is okay, at least on the van; what did your car's rear axle come to as you were a bit over the permitted chassis noseweight.

Never bothered with weighing just the rear axle as we were well within the specs for the vehicle which is a Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD. In essence we were 60kg over the MTPLM but within the load rating of the tyres. I am wondering about part of the caravan weight being transferred to the tow ball making the caravan well within its MTPLM?

 

[ProfJohnL]

The total weight of a caravan is the sum of the weights on each point of support. If a caravan is hitched and ready to go its total weight will be the weight through each tyre plus the nose load. The total load must not exceed the MTPLM for the trailer. Equally non of the other limits such as axle loads or hitch loads should be exceeded.

The MTPLM is the value the authorities will use to establish if a caravan is overloaded, as that has been set by the caravan manufacturer (equates to the commercial vehicles plated weight) which under EU regs dictates the weight capacity of the trailer - even if the axle/tyres fitted to the trailer have a higher limits.

The nose load does not form part of the towed weight, it is technically carried by the tow vehicle.

If your caravan's total weight is 1900Kg, and you set your nose load to be 100Kg, the weight on the caravan wheels will only be 1800Kg.

Most caravan chassis maximum nose load is only 100Kg. Do check the permitted value for yours, running at 105Kg may be overloading it.

 

[JTQ]

The total weight of a caravan is the sum of the weights on each point of support.

But does rolling a twin axle over a Reich unit actually record the normal weight carried by the wheels?
IMO, with a twin axle the slight lift to climb onto the Reich will partly relax the load on the tandem wheel and carry that on the wheel on the Reich.
So simply summating the individual wheel weights recorded by the Reich will result in a higher total weight than the van's actual weight.

As the OP discovered?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello JTQ

Yes. your thinking is correct.

- The question is how much additional weight will be produced, my gut feeling having thought about the factors and the interaction of the suspension involved is it could around 40kG per wheel. I stress that is just an educated guesstimate and it does depend on a lot of factors which will be different for each outfit.

However there is a relatively simple solution. Two planks that are the same thickness as the Reich CWC laid end to end with the CWC in the middle, so that when any tandem wheel is on the CWC the other wheel is supported on the plank and will be at the same height as the measured wheel.

Of course the ultimate accuracy of the Reich is still unknown, as far as I know it is not supplied with a calibration certificate.

 

[Surfer]

The total weight of a caravan is the sum of the weights on each point of support. If a caravan is hitched and ready to go its total weight will be the weight through each tyre plus the nose load. The total load must not exceed the MTPLM for the trailer. Equally non of the other limits such as axle loads or hitch loads should be exceeded.

The MTPLM is the value the authorities will use to establish if a caravan is overloaded, as that has been set by the caravan manufacturer (equates to the commercial vehicles plated weight) which under EU regs dictates the weight capacity of the trailer - even if the axle/tyres fitted to the trailer have a higher limits.

The nose load does not form part of the towed weight, it is technically carried by the tow vehicle.

If your caravan's total weight is 1900Kg, and you set your nose load to be 100Kg, the weight on the caravan wheels will only be 1800Kg.

Most caravan chassis maximum nose load is only 100Kg. Do check the permitted value for yours, running at 105Kg may be overloading it.

Thanks for the above. However according to the DVSA there is no legal requirement in the British Construction and Use regulations for the design gross vehicle weight (MTPLM) to be shown on any trailer over 750 kg but not over 3500 kg total axle weight (category O2). Virtually all trailer caravans are in this category. However caravan manufacturers may voluntarily fit such plates, and it is a requirement of the forthcoming EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval or Individual Vehicle Approval requirements being implemented from 29 October 2014 for new caravans. This is not an in-use requirement and is not retrospective so you will have no problem with your existing caravan if it does not have one.
I would think that if the police were looking to prosecute and for a solid conviction they would check the load rating of the tyres and if exceeded, they have a solid case for prosecuting for having a vehicle that is a danger to other road users or even driving in manner that is a danger to others amongst many other penalties. However it is recommended not to exceed the manufacturers guidelines on MTPLM therefore we have to try and shed 60kgs.
We are starting with removing the Calorlite bottle (10.4kg) altogether and leaving it behind, the steel spare wheel (24kg), the Kampa Air Ace Awning (24kg) and finally the Bulldog QD33 (9.8kg) which can be left behind as we have the two ALKO wheel locks. Dropping another 24kg for fitting the air con is another issue and we are struggling to lose that weight.
It is interesting to note about the noseweight not forming part of the MTPLM which technically means that at a 100kg noseweight we could fit the air con without removing anything from the caravan. We would still be under the load rating for the tyres even though the caravan standing on its own would be weighing 1892kg?

 

[JTQ]

I know the science but to apply it I am lacking the compliance of the OP's specific tryes, at whatever pressures each was at, to the actual deformation profile caused by the Reich, the suspension stiffness or even the displacement.

We do have some imperical info though as the OP both used a Reich and a weighbridge so the order of influence is known, accepting tolerances are involved throughout.

The OP did several runs with he stated the “wheels” over the Reich and that averaged 2200kgs. We don't know if this involved the noseweight or was as stated the “wheels”, but I will take it that was what was stated.

The Weigh bridge gave the total weight including the nose weight as 1860 kgs, and via his noseweight gauge he recorded 105 kgs.

So the computed total axle weight from the weighbridge is 1860-105, 1755kgs.
Thus indicating the variation, accumuative from all wheels, is very much higher than is suggested at 2200-1755, 445kgs

Your plank technique would work provided the set up ensures that the tyre under the Reich was wholly clear of the planks. So they cant abut the Reich.

Myself in the Ops position would try the Reich again but carrying the wheel bourne load on a single axle. ie with one wheel , the same one of each tandem removed. Then weigh the removed wheels and recheck the noseweight with the wheels still off. With that data we can readily calculate the vans weight.
He might even be able to contrive the van being carried on a single axle with the jockey wheel either fully extended or retracted and go over the Reich on the mover, but we will still need the noseweight in that configuration. The mover configuration may dictate which wheel is removed.

When I looked at the Reich I seem to recall a claimed accuracy of 3%, so if simply accumalative, it could be up to 54 kgs.

 

[Surfer]

JTQ we weighed both sides of the caravan and then the jockey wheel. The unit then totals it all up and gives you a combined figure.
It was when weighing the jockey wheel that alarm bells started to ring as a few weeks previous we had checked the nose weight and it was about 100kg and nowhere near 175kg even though when using the Reich the caravan was at the correct level for the towball.

BTW on another issue and for John, the difference between the calibrated Milenco nose weight gauge and the Reich Towball Load Control is less than 1kg, but I understand his point about the height.

 

[JTQ]

Right, so by your readings that reduces the 445 kg variance down to 445 -175, 270 kgs
[sorry the "equals" sign is shot on this keyboard]

 

[Surfer]

Right, so by your readings that reduces the 445 kg variance down to 445 -175, 270 kgs
[sorry the "equals" sign is shot on this keyboard]

Correct however 270kg is still a vast over read. I really suspect the calibration was knocked off in transit as one could fit a dozen of these Reich CWC in the box as there was no packing in the box to prevent it being thrown about inside the box.

 

[JTQ]

I for one would still like to see the results with the Reich more correctly used, if and when you are able , please.

 

[Surfer]

I for one would still like to see the results with the Reich more correctly used, if and when you are able , please.

I don't think that is going to happen as we are sending it back and requesting a refund. BTW trying to get the jockey wheel onto the unit is a nightmare as the jockey wheel pushes it along instead of mounting it. This means you have to physically hold it in place until the jockey wheel is on the unit. Also a hell of a hassle setting it up with a plank under the one set of wheels to "level" it while measuring the other pair.
This is not mentioned when reading up on the description or specs. We are quite disappointed with it as in contrast the Reich Towball Load Control is an excellent piece of kit and easy to use.

 

[sosij]

Hi - reading your aircon post, I assume that you bought your CWC from Obelink, yes?

I'm expecting one from Obelink myself on Monday (according to DPD) so I'll be interested to see if the thing works with our single axle Bailey. I'm a bit discouraged reading your own experience, though

Interestingly, the final Paypal price for our CWC was £98.43 including delivery, so it' a good price, but only if the thing works!

If you did buy from Obelink, may I ask who is paying for the return - and, if it's you, how much will it cost me to return mine if necessary?

Cheers

 

[Surfer]

Hi - reading your aircon post, I assume that you bought your CWC from Obelink, yes?

I'm expecting one from Obelink myself on Monday (according to DPD) so I'll be interested to see if the thing works with our single axle Bailey. I'm a bit discouraged reading your own experience, though

Interestingly, the final Paypal price for our CWC was £98.43 including delivery, so it' a good price, but only if the thing works!

If you did buy from Obelink, may I ask who is paying for the return - and, if it's you, how much will it cost me to return mine if necessary?

Cheers

If the unit is faulty, then Obelink pay postage. Probably a lot easier to use on a single axle than a twin axle. Getting the jockey onto it is the biggest hassle and you need to make sure that the coupling head is the same height as the when it is connected to the car which is a hassle as you have to lower the jockey wheel a bit once it is on the Reich. Also don't forget you need a plank the same thickness as the CWC and this goes under the wheel opposite to the one you are weighing.
Hopefully yours will be packed a lot better than ours and not get thrown around inside the box. Please update us when you first use it.

 

[JTQ]

Don't be too discouraged sosij, a relation's works fine with his single axle caravan. The quoted packaging leaves a lot to be desired but the units low mass probably makes its tumbling about in the box would cause it little distress.
Surfer's primary issue I believe is that the simple technique that was employed will lead to significant errors with a twin axle caravan. Something that ought to be made evident pre purchase IMO.
I doubt the need to balance the lift by using a similar size plank on the opposite wheel; in pure terms yes but the tip in a caravan of the level involved will have very little influence.
I recall it being said the plastic is inclined to skid readily on some surfaces, so the wheel pushes the unit forwards rather than climbs it; I suspect placing it on a bit of high friction draw liner plastic sheet will fix that issue.
I also understood simply driving over it on the mover was the better option.
For the jockey wheel, if including that, in the summating mode then probably setting up with the wheel in its caster locked position, would help if you could get near level.
Whilst the height of the hitch alters the noseweight, this within normal heights, must have minimal effect on the wheel loadings of a single axle caravan, certainly lower than the units accuracy.

 

[sosij]

Thanks Surfer & JTQ - I will let you know how the CWC performs when I've tested it.

The maximum permitted caravan weight is 1457 kg, but I've never actually weighed it (empty or full) so I don't really know what I'm towing. I also plan to take it to a weighbridge so that I can compare the readings.

Like Surfer, I also have the Reich nose weight gadget - but I've never checked that against anything else either.

I'm not sure whether I'm undergoing some sort of later-life crisis, but after years of towing various caravans I've suddenly become paranoid about weights!

It's probably down to our towcar, - a VW Tiguan, - which, frankly, is the the most unstable vehicle I've over towed with

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hang on Surfer,

It is interesting to note about the noseweight not forming part of the MTPLM which technically means that at a 100kg noseweight we could fit the air con without removing anything from the caravan. We would still be under the load rating for the tyres even though the caravan standing on its own would be weighing 1892kg?

I did not suggest that. What I wrote was :-

..........The nose load does not form part of the towed weight, it is technically carried by the tow vehicle. ..........

The Nose weight is very much part of the MTPLM as that is the maximum ALL UP WEIGHT the trailer can be. Towed weight + Nose load = caravans weight, which must not exceed the MTPLM.

The towed weight is what is carried on the trailers wheels. The Nose weight is carried by the tow vehicle.

Now this matter of the legality or even sensibility of exceeding the MTPLM:-

The debate about the value use of MTPLM has been discussed on this forum previously. It may not have a specific mention in current regulations, and it may not be enforceable as a specific weight limit, but the law is not always an ass. Judges would look at the situation and may conclude that whilst the MTPLM is not a statutory specification for trailers, it represents the trailer manufacturers technical assessment and specification for the trailers capability and as such it not without significance, and should not have been ignored.

Whilst no 'overweight' offence may have been actually been committed, the driver of the outfit is responsible for its safety on the road, and that means taking into consideration any technical specifications that a manufacturer might provide. Deliberately disregarding technical advice from a manufacturer might be reckless, and that could easily mean the caravan is being used in an unsafe manner. This could lead to charges of reckless driving, an unsafe vehicle, or an unsafe load.

I would not want to be trying to explain to a judge why you deliberately ignored a manufactures limit.

 

[Surfer]

Hang on Surfer,

The debate about the value use of MTPLM has been discussed on this forum previously. It may not have a specific mention in current regulations, and it may not be enforceable as a specific weight limit, but the law is not always an ass. Judges would look at the situation and may conclude that whilst the MTPLM is not a statutory specification for trailers, it represents the trailer manufacturers technical assessment and specification for the trailers capability and as such it not without significance, and should not have been ignored.

Surely part of the axle weight is transferred to the towing vehicle via the tow ball? I am just trying to get my head around this issue. Can you perhaps elaborate on thsi point as I have an interest in learning more about thsi aspect to help improve my limited knowledge.
As for your remarks regarding the MTPLM, a judge cannot take into consideration the MTPLM plate on a caravan at all as the MTPLM plate on a caravan is a guideline suggested by the caravan manufacturer based on certain criteria. Up to recently the chassis manufacture never issued a weight plate for a caravan or trailer chassis. One of the reasons why the police would never have a successful prosecution if they used the MTPLM plate. Easier to use a host of other laws, but as stated previously, do not exceed the MTPLM anyway whether the plate is legal or not.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

................. whether the plate is legal or not.

As I understand it the plate itself IS a legal requirement. It is the numerical values listed on the plate that people have concerns with.

 

[Surfer]

................. whether the plate is legal or not.

As I understand it the plate itself IS a legal requirement. It is the numerical values listed on the plate that people have concerns with.

Nope as per my earlier post and quoted from DVSA it is not a legal requirement on any pre 2014 caravan and never has been. MTPLM is only a guideline the same as the 85% guideline and carries no weight in a court of law.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

................. whether the plate is legal or not.

As I understand it the plate itself IS a legal requirement. It is the numerical values listed on the plate that people have concerns with.

Nope as per my earlier post and quoted from DVSA it is not a legal requirement on any pre 2014 caravan and never has been. MTPLM is only a guideline the same as the 85% guideline and carries no weight in a court of law.

I beg to differ, from Parkers:

Since 1982 all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kilograms.
Since January 1, 1997, all unbraked trailer plates must show the year of manufacture.

 

[Surfer]

................. whether the plate is legal or not.

As I understand it the plate itself IS a legal requirement. It is the numerical values listed on the plate that people have concerns with.

Nope as per my earlier post and quoted from DVSA it is not a legal requirement on any pre 2014 caravan and never has been. MTPLM is only a guideline the same as the 85% guideline and carries no weight in a court of law.

I beg to differ, from Parkers:

Since 1982 all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kilograms.
Since January 1, 1997, all unbraked trailer plates must show the year of manufacture.

I never knew that Parkers was an official source and that their word was gospel and over rode the DVSA? Seems like third parties are now running the country. :cheer:

 

[sosij]

Well, as a new member, I hesitate to comment but.....

It seems as though your (quite understandable) lust for that air-con unit is going to land you in trouble

I'm afraid that no Magistrate is going to do anything other than accept the figures on a manufacturer's rating plate at face value. They will not sit there working out complex mathematical formulae before giving a judgement - if the plate says 'Maximum 1800 Kg' and your load was more than that, then they will find you guilty.

I don't claim to know the exact technicalities of the law, but I do know how it will be initially interpreted by those in authority.

Subsequently, I'm sure that a Barrister will be only too pleased to argue in your favour through every British court, the House of Lords, and perhaps even the European Parliament - as long as you can afford to keep paying him for his efforts.

Who knows?, perhaps in the end you will triumph - but unless you are extremely rich your caravan will have been long sold (along with your house, and everything else you possess) in order to fund your case....

And for what? - establishing a legal right to tow something that common sense dictates is inherently unsafe?

Our VW has a 2200 kg towing capacity - but I shudder at the thought of towing a caravan remotely approaching that figure with it because the kerb weight is only 1650 kg. A flat trailer might be OK, but a slab-sided caravan is a very different matter, and imo is a recipe for disaster.

Any, re the air-con - don't be too keen to fit one, I've only seen one damp Hymer Nova van - and that had retro-fitted roof air-con on it :lol:

No offence intended, btw.

 

[Surfer]

Well, as a new member, I hesitate to comment but.....

It seems as though your (quite understandable) lust for that air-con unit is going to land you in trouble

I'm afraid that no Magistrate is going to do anything other than accept the figures on a manufacturer's rating plate at face value. They will not sit there working out complex mathematical formulae before giving a judgement - if the plate says 'Maximum 1800 Kg' and your load was more than that, then they will find you guilty.

I don't claim to know the exact technicalities of the law, but I do know how it will be initially interpreted by those in authority.

Subsequently, I'm sure that a Barrister will be only too pleased to argue in your favour through every British court, the House of Lords, and perhaps even the European Parliament - as long as you can afford to keep paying him for his efforts.

Who knows?, perhaps in the end you will triumph - but unless you are extremely rich your caravan will have been long sold (along with your house, and everything else you possess) in order to fund your case....

And for what? - establishing a legal right to tow something that common sense dictates is inherently unsafe?

Our VW has a 2200 kg towing capacity - but I shudder at the thought of towing a caravan remotely approaching that figure with it because the kerb weight is only 1650 kg. A flat trailer might be OK, but a slab-sided caravan is a very different matter, and imo is a recipe for disaster.

Any, re the air-con - don't be too keen to fit one, I've only seen one damp Hymer Nova van - and that had retro-fitted roof air-con on it :lol:

No offence intended, btw.

The magistrate or judge cannot even consider the MTPLM plate as it is only a guideline so you would win on default if it was used as evidence against you. No need for it go any further than that as I am going on what si stated by the government agency that monitors overloading etc.
BTW no one is suggesting that any one should exceed the MTPLM guidelines suggested by the manufacturer. I am just pointing out a technical variation.
Anyway regarding the air con out comes the awning, windbreak and spare wheel which can be carried in the Jeep. The old groundsheet, QD33 wheel clamp, Calorlite gas bottle and caravan's fold up table can be stored at home. In over 3 years we have only used the caravan's fold up table once.
Removing all the above substantially reduces the caravan weight and makes it possible to fit the air con and even gives us a safety margin. However the main thing is that the wife is then happy, but I am not! :cheer:
BTW can I suggest that you take the caravan to a weigh bridge first and then use the Reich CWC. I am sure that you will have better success as yours is a single axle. Our other Reich TLC was brilliant.