removal of messages

[Julie_5081178]

I am quite angry that the 'moderator' is removing messages that appear to be making complaints about faults with caravans. The UK caravan industry really needs to pull its socks up in its build quality and customer satisfaction. We have had numerous faults in our new caravan which after 8 months the manufacturer is finally agreeing to take back to the factory and repair. Some of these faults were life threatening.

Is PC magazine and website so concerned about their advertisers that thay want us to keep quiet about our complaints - I for one want to know what dodgey vans, dealers and manufacturers are out there before I part with another £16000

PC should be gathering our complaints and trying to do something about it to improve the caravanning in the UK. I subscribe to this magazine but increasingly feel that they are in the pockets of the manufacturers.

 

[Icemaker]

totally agree with you but unfotunately if a manufacturer or suplier see's a complaint and the complaint names them then they have a right to ask that the thread be removed and as has been said before PC can not take the risk of litigation in the current i will sue you climate that we brits have inherited from our alleged friends in america.

Its a shame but we have to learn to write comments without making it too obvious who the complaint is about but allso making it easy enough to guess ?.

One thing i have noticed though is that its usually the more notorious or smallish companies that complain and get threads removed, maybee we need to start making lists of complaints and when one gets deleted we know to avoid that company completely as they have some thing to hide ?.

 

[Moderator2_5083849]

Julie, I am sorry you feel the way you do, however, whilst you may have very good and sound reasons for posting, only one side of an argument is presented, and the claims cannot be substantiated by the Publishers, which I feel you must appreciate.

It has happened in the past, and will happen again in the future where forum "owners" find themselves subject to litigation because of inappropriate messages they allow to remain on the site.

I refer you to the "Forum Etiquette" and particularly No4 which states " You may not transmit complaints about named companies or caravan parks. Such individual issues should be taken up with the company direct."

 

[steven_5083816]

Julie, you are right it is about time that the PC come out of the pocket,s of the caravan manufacturers and stick up for the people like us, that give both maker,s and PC our hard earned cash, without this they would not be in employment and not sitting back counting their big fat profits.

I wonder if the moderator is going to take this off the site as well.

I do understand about the litigationon thing,s like this but why not?.

steven.

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

We could always set up a Yahoo or Google 'group' and then we could say what we liked about these dealers parks etc. I for one always value others' opinions and feel it absurd that negative views are removed.

For goodness sakes, if PC wants the 'other side' of the story to be published then the offending company can always logon and submit their side of the story!

John

 

[Jimbob1]

Hi Julie,

Re; Your problems with your caravan,did you ever think about taking up your complaints with your local radio station most of them have a consumer programme,and they handle complaints exceptionally well with excellent results.We in Herts/Beds/and Bucks have BBC3counties radio and the presenter Steven Rhodes is first class we are very lucky to have him.Jim

 

[Val & Frank]

We have been down this route before, PC is a magazine for caravanners, it supplies a forum at its own cost for readers.

Revenue is raised from advertisers, and readers alike. (in what ratio we don't know ).

So you have a complaint about your van, so complain to the dealer. How you think by bleating on this forum can resolve your problems I don't know.

Do you expect PC mag to take up your complaint ?? because someone advertises with them.

The law offers sufficient protection for faulty goods, so use the law.

Before buying a van do your own research, go to dealers or sites and ask around. And buy PC mag and the likes for opinions road tests etc.

Why PC mag should be gathering our complaints is beyond me, they are a commercial organisation, not an Agony Aunt for the Caravan Industry.

Val & Frank

 

[Moderator2_5083849]

Before this thread deteriorates into "What Should PC Mag do and What Not" lets get some facts straight first.

A buyer of any item or article enters into a contract witht the SELLER of that item.

The Sellers legal obligations are set out in law as to what he must supply and its fitness for use etc.

The Buyers rights are set out in The Sale of Goods Act 1979, as amended by the Sale and supply of Goods Act 1994 and further amended in the Sale and Supply of Goods Consumers Regulations 2002.

The buyer of a caravan enters into a contract with the seller of the van, NOT PC magazine, NOT the manufacturer but the RETAILER of the van.

As dissatisfaction with goods can end up as court cases it is wholly inappropriate to discuss these matters in a public forum, and as such cannot be allowed to stay on site.

As has been said before, on a forum only one side of an argument is usually available, therfore it is going to be biased, intentional or not and as we have not entered into trial by internet in this country yet, it is only right for complaints to be taken up with the right people, the people with whom you have the contract.

 

[Icemaker]

Frank people post complaints about products on this and other sites so as to bring them to the attention of others who may be contemplating purchasing the product or may have all ready purchased the product and are having the same problem, It is to help others understand the pitfalls of a product if it has any.

I think any body would be a little miffed if they bought a new van and had problems with it only to be told later by others that the product was known to be poor but nobody had bothered to tell anybody as it might have been classed as whinging, Take the recent swift group thread as an example, it has shown that there does appear to be a problem with ace vans built in 2005 regarding quality, you would not have known this and potentially purchased a van of this vintage if the thread had not appeared as it happens you now know to avoid these vans, the same with the insurance thread; 98 hits from people who appreciated the info regarding a rogue firm ?.

Threads should not be deleted if the problem can be proven but i totally agree with PC that if its just cat calling and can't be substantiated then if a complaint is received from the company PC have no alternative.

 

[Val & Frank]

Morning Icebreaker

My point was, Do your own research. The forum users are a very small number of purchasers of vans. I don't think I would be put off buying something because x perceived he had had a bad deal. Because y having had a good deal camcels out x.

You only need to look around the shows to see the quality of certain products. you pays your money and takes your chance.

One statement I have found to be useful over time

PRICE IS AN IDICATION OF QUALITY, on occasions it fails but not very often.

Val & Frank ps we enjoy a good whine just like anyone else!!!!

 

[Surfer]

At lot of people like to voice issues with their caravan in order to ascertain whether it is a common issue or whether it is a one off and why shouldn't they as generally British built caravans are of poor quality and most seem to require more than the average amount of warranty work.

We stopped our subscription to PC because they are extremely biased towards manufacturers whose goods are below standard. If PC had the guts they would allow people to voice their issues but also allow a "Right to reply" from manufacturers. This could also be applied to caravan dealers, sites etc.

 

[Guest]

One possibility is to set up your own Forum. If there are no links to PC Magazine, then the issue of litigation against them is removed.

It is not that difficult, or expensive. Many internet Companies will license you to use their format for either a fixed period of time, or indefinitely.

You would have to recover the set up costs from Forum subscribers, but you are talking very small money, if enough join. Of course, the PC Mag route is convenient and easy, and as most of us are inherently lazy (in these sorts of matters) it is probably best to stick with it.

There are probably enough ways of putting your point across without actually mentioning names. If someone is seriously concerned, then maybe trading e mails could be an option.

 

[ProfJohnL]

At lot of people like to voice issues with their caravan in order to ascertain whether it is a common issue or whether it is a one off and why shouldn't they as generally British built caravans are of poor quality and most seem to require more than the average amount of warranty work.

We stopped our subscription to PC because they are extremely biased towards manufacturers whose goods are below standard. If PC had the guts they would allow people to voice their issues but also allow a "Right to reply" from manufacturers. This could also be applied to caravan dealers, sites etc.

Hello Ian,

As I understand it, the forum is as open to retailers and manufactures to reply if they wish, but they choose not to.

In respect of magazines that do offer complaint investigation, they do not print a raw uncoroberated complaints. They usually investigate and consider the complaint, and if they find there is a case to be answered they will then approach the retailer or manufacturer for commnet or response. The result of that process which allows for a balanced view to be presented is then printed.

This process helps to prevent the unfair harrasment of any particular party.

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

Well, looking at the internet 'news' groups we have under Google Groups uk . rec . caravanning

This one is not organised int sections as our PC forum but clearly one could post things that are not "politically correct". We could always do thsi and advise our PC forum chums to go take a look and then comment having read the said piece.

Personally I believe in free speech. However I also agree that PC have the right to run this forum the way they choose. If we want more freedom, then we need to post elsewhere (but then be plagued by pests, many of whome you will all know !!!)

John

 

[RogerL]

PCV over-reacts to the threat of legal action.

Any action could only be succesful if the "victim" has been defamed unfairly.

An ACCURATE report of poor service is unlikely to result in action and easy to defend if it was.

The law affecting PCV is no different to the law that allows the Sun, Mirror, News of the World, etc, etc to expose crooks, cheats and shoddy service providers.

I'd have to assume that commercial revenue from advertising exceeds income from magazine sales so we're not the customer, the caravan trade is !!

 

[Vic_5039745]

If you want to name and shame why not do it on www.ukcampsite.co.uk This forum has hundreds and hundreds of contributors all with caavanning and camping interests.

It's a much more liberal forum and has no loyalties in any direction. However if things start to get out of hand the regulator will of course step in.

I found that the PC forum was interferred with too much by the moderator and that's why I stopped posting on it. Criticism of staff and their editorial abilities was always one that got a block and that was at a time when some amazing gaffes were being made in the magazine.

After a period of some months I thought I'd come back to it today just as a matter of interest and guess what....... it's still happening apparently.

Bye, bye.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Talking of amazing gaffs

I read a review of 3 fixed bed vans in a magazine this month and the pics of the fixed bed were taken with a lens that distorted the pics so that it looked as though the bed was wider at the foot.

The reviewer then went on to say that the beds WERE wider at the foot to give more leg room.

It brought into question if the reviewer had even been in the vans.

Did anyone else read this.

Name is withheld to be PC (politically correct)

 

[Eddie1FromNottingham]

John,

yes I also saw this, and the apology to Milenco regarding using Grease on the Lock of the Wheel Clamp ( which Milenco says causes irrepaiable Damage.) Also the reference to a previously reported comment on the Standard of Security provided which had been incorrect originally, then re Quoted this Year. I know mistakes can Happen, but surely the Technical Dept. Of, I Quote. The Best Selling Carvan Magazine, should take more care. I wonder how this features in their getting sued paranoia. I agree with most other members it's not getting sued that's worrying them it's not getting Revenue from Manufacturers. Incidently the Caravan Club does carry out a survey and impartially report the results Nameing and Shameing.

Eddie 1. From Nottingham.

 

[DanPaula]

We have just purchased a new van and have been looking in the forums to check what problems people have experienced, it is our first van so any help is appreciated and why shouldn't makers of unworthy products be named and shamed? We understand the legal situation but it's time we fought back in this country and spoke our minds and surely if the information is factual what's the problem.

 

[Val & Frank]

Fight back by all means. If YOUR purchase is sub standard, give YOUR Dealer a hard time, then tne Manufactuer if no joy with the Dealer.

I Do FULLY agree with sub standard Sites being named and shamed. Because I don't think thats as emotive as a

 

[Matthew_374226908]

I will be cancelling my subscription to PC as soon as I can. I haven't read one serious critisism of the UK Caravan industry in PC since I subscribed 8-10 months ago. Yet it's obvious to anyone that the industry has issues with quality. The sad thing is that PC aren't doing anyone any favours. If someone was to highlight all these problems and shame the manufacturers they would have to change their manufacturing processors. All thats happening now is people are starting to buying foreign caravans and the UK caravan industry will go like the UK car industry.

 

[Arrow1]

Does this mean that we no longer have the right to freely express ourselves. I have to agree that raising issues with less than standard manufacturers quality of build issues should be a subject for discussion. Name and shame, or get out of the game.

It does seem that there is some serious discontent about bias of PCV towards the manufacturers, but surely, a moderator placing a little addition "The views expressed here may not reflect the views of the Editor of this magazine" or words to that effect, should allow for the poor performers to be exposed without the risk of litigation. Or is there a financial support issue lying there somewhere. If negative comments are removed, then should this not be considered as a deception where known negative issues are hidden in favour of the rosy-world image of perfection. British caravan manufacturers have issues over build quality, there are repair centres that are less than honest or fair, there are dealers, traders a stockists that many people have had personal problems with, this SHOULD be passed on to others..... unfortunately, we don't live in a world where 'The Customer' gets a fair deal in anything, even with Sale of Gods type legislation, it seems that there is nearly always a get-out clause for the offenders. At least with freedom to express one's self and pass on negative experience would allow a potential customer to be better equipped with info before parting with hard earned money.

 

[Brian-Bear_5094910]

I see mr moddy has been at it again removing threads. I simply asked for some feedback and tests on our website, it has chat, forum, picture gallery, etc all the things you guys have asked for here but are never given for one reason or another. Well if you want to find it do a google for cranfield tourers, we will pop up number 1. Thanks to all who did take a look, why not register a free account and join the craic at one of the premier touring spots in Northern Ireland

 

[MikeP]

Blatant advertising or what?

 

[RogerL]

Most magazines, of any type, get most of their revenue from advertisers rather than consumers. They are therefore clearly positioned to promote the products and services of the market they're aimed at.

If you think that magazines, or caravanning clubs for that matter, are intended primarily for consumers then think again, the real world just isn't like that.

I'm sure that publishers would introduce subscriber only (no advertising) magazines if they could do so profitably.

If you want a forum whether you can post constructive criticism of an advertiser, without being moderated, you just need to set up your own web site.