Repair costs!

[Buckman]

I require the transmission fluid in my Jeep to be changed due to mileage and towing. The ZF transmission on the Jeep is supposed to be a sealed for life component and the filter is built into the pan so in addition to fluids, pan needs to be changed. I contacted a Jeep franchised dealer with whom I have dealt previously and the quote was in excess of £1400! The pan alone was over £900!

Going onto Jeep forums I was very enlightened by a few posters and made contact with some Indy approved ZF transmission specialists local to my location. The genuine ZF pan can be bought for under £100 and the total job including labour and fluid should cost no more than £400 on average!

Why do brand franchises persist in ripping off customers with such high prices just because they rebrand the part under their own name? One way to think about it is that they do not want the job as it is hard labour and cannot be plugged into a machine to resolve the issue?

 

[Bluetonic]

Why do brand franchises persist in ripping off customers with such high prices just because they rebrand the part under their own name?

Because they can, many people still believe that they get better service from the main stealer network and don't do any research.
It costs more so it must be better, right?

 

[Raywood]

It is that sort of thing that sorts out the good and the bad in the trade. If the dealer cared about the customer you would not have the attempt to rip you off.

 

[Buckman]

Because they can, many people still believe that they get better service from the main stealer network and don't do any research.
It costs more so it must be better, right?

Jeep franchise dealer that we normally use has a Jeep technician that really knows his oats when it comes to faults that the computer cannot pick up which is why we have always used them.

We have a main 6th year of 60k service coming up in May although the vehicle has not done 45k so unlikely that we will do 15k in the next few months.

Not being a mechanic I am assuming that the issue we have is transmission fluid related. If travelling along at 50-60mp and then entering a 40mph zone while slowing down, very occasionally the gearbox will select a lower gear that is a bit low causing the engine to rev a bit, A quick tap on the accelerator resolves the issue. I must admit it could be a software glitch?

 

[Bluetonic]

Jeep franchise dealer that we normally use has a Jeep technician that really knows his oats when it comes to faults that the computer cannot pick up which is why we have always used them.

We have a main 6th year of 60k service coming up in May although the vehicle has not done 45k so unlikely that we will do 15k in the next few months.

Not being a mechanic I am assuming that the issue we have is transmission fluid related. If travelling along at 50-60mp and then entering a 40mph zone while slowing down, very occasionally the gearbox will select a lower gear that is a bit low causing the engine to rev a bit, A quick tap on the accelerator resolves the issue. I must admit it could be a software glitch?

Totally understand why you would use them if you are happy and you get good results.
However, lots of specialist independents are time served ex main dealer techs that take a wealth of knowledge with them.
My experience recently with a VW franchise was not so good as yours.


As for the gear box issue, I have no idea, auto boxes are voodoo in my opinion as my current car is the first I've owned with an auto box, but it does seem that a good many faults can be fixed with a fluid change, even the so called sealed for life ones.
Something I'm going to do on my Santa Fe when the weather gets a bit more agreeable to laying on the drive

 

[Buckman]

Totally understand why you would use them if you are happy and you get good results.
However, lots of specialist independents are time served ex main dealer techs that take a wealth of knowledge with them.
My experience recently with a VW franchise was not so good as yours.


As for the gear box issue, I have no idea, auto boxes are voodoo in my opinion as my current car is the first I've owned with an auto box, but it does seem that a good many faults can be fixed with a fluid change, even the so called sealed for life ones.
Something I'm going to do on my Santa Fe when the weather gets a bit more agreeable to laying on the drive

Unfortunately the Jeep does not have a drain plug and the fluid needs to be pumped out so not really a DIY jobbie. Also due to a cross member making access to rear bolts difficult, a specialised tool needs to be used. Not sure what they are thinking about when designing cars. I think of the Jag XJ which required the gearbox to be removed to change a gasket costing about £1, but customer had a £1000 bill!

 

[Bluetonic]

Not sure what they are thinking about when designing cars

Designed for quick building to maximise profit. Not designed for being repaired

 

[Jcloughie]

My Volvo had an Aisin gearbox. It worked fine, but I was advised that if I wanted to keep the car after 80,000 miles. A fluid change would be advisable.

The job involved replacing the fluid 3 or 4 times. And dumping it each time. No parts were need. The fluid is very expensive so I was quoted £450

John

 

[trevormonty]

With extended factory warranties have no option but to have service by the dealer and use factory parts.

Good video on servicing of transmissions.
Watch if you plan to do ypur own servicing.

View: https://youtu.be/jJr30r6RRgw?feature=shared

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is that sort of thing that sorts out the good and the bad in the trade. If the dealer cared about the customer you would not have the attempt to rip you off.

Main dealer price do tend to be higher, partly becasue they can get away with charging more, but also their overheads are considerably higher becasue they have to have all the specialist items and training for all parts of the marques vehicles, where as transmission specialist only has to have the tools for transmissions

Main dealers have to cover the cost of the fancy sales floors and offices usually in high value locations, specialist have far more modest customer comfort needs and are often tucked away in lower cost industrial estates.

 

[Buckman]

Main dealer price do tend to be higher, partly becasue they can get away with charging more, but also their overheads are considerably higher becasue they have to have all the specialist items and training for all parts of the marques vehicles, where as transmission specialist only has to have the tools for transmissions

Main dealers have to cover the cost of the fancy sales floors and offices usually in high value locations, specialist have far more modest customer comfort needs and are often tucked away in lower cost industrial estates.

I can understand many of your points and I am not disputing any of them, but why a charge of over £900 for a part when the same genuine part can be bought direct from the manufacturer of the gearbox for under £100. Just to add in the states the exact same job costs under US$500. Rip off Britain?

For interest here is a Youtube clip of a DIY job on the same gearbox.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yHMGGwjpZA

 

[Ferrodo]

Just had the ATF changed in my Shogun at 50k miles. No drain plug or dip stick on these Aisin boxes. Drop cross member, drop pan, replace filter, refit pan and crossmember and refill with very expensive Fluid. (Using correct fluid is crucial) All up cost at around £300. This was at a local (trusted) garage not a main dealership. In fact I rate the main dealership a bunch of clowns through personal experience. For the life of me I just can’t see the logic in no dip stick .

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is nothing stopping a potential customer asking a supplier to explain and justify their charges.

 

[otherclive]

Just had the ATF changed in my Shogun at 50k miles. No drain plug or dip stick on these Aisin boxes. Drop cross member, drop pan, replace filter, refit pan and crossmember and refill with very expensive Fluid. (Using correct fluid is crucial) All up cost at around £300. This was at a local (trusted) garage not a main dealership. In fact I rate the main dealership a bunch of clowns through personal experience. For the life of me I just can’t see the logic in no dip stick .

A dip stick is a potential source of contamination that could affect the gearbox longevity. Not everyone uses a dipstick correctly.

 

[Raywood]

Main dealer price do tend to be higher, partly becasue they can get away with charging more, but also their overheads are considerably higher becasue they have to have all the specialist items and training for all parts of the marques vehicles, where as transmission specialist only has to have the tools for transmissions

Main dealers have to cover the cost of the fancy sales floors and offices usually in high value locations, specialist have far more modest customer comfort needs and are often tucked away in lower cost industrial estates.

Fancy showrooms should not come into the equation as sales are generally a separate unit and have to justify their own existence. There is some extra cost for the workshop though, as it then tends to be in the same high cost location, but it should be nowhere near the figure mentioned here.

 

[Beardy]

A dip stick is a potential source of contamination that could affect the gearbox longevity. Not everyone uses a dipstick correctly.

A few years ago Mrs Beardy asked if I could help out her friend who had hit hard times and was struggling to make ends meet - her car hadn't been serviced for a couple of years, would I do it. I agreed, basic service, oil, filter, air filter, check plugs and fluid levels etc. Car turned up, friend went in to chat to Mrs. First thing I checked was oil level, not a drop on the dipstick. I went in and asked her if she'd checked it recently. She said that she had and had topped it up a few weeks before. I said there was nothing on the dipstick and asked how much she'd put in. She said she'd put a bit in, nothing on the dipstick so she put a bit more in, still nothing on the dipstick so she put the whole lot in. Still nothing so she thought there was something wrong with the dipstick. 🤦‍♂️
I drained about 3 litres out and put just over 4 in to bring it to level. Must have been running on around 2 litres before she topped it up (she didn't know what size container she bought, I'm guessing a litre).

 

[Buckman]

A few years ago Mrs Beardy asked if I could help out her friend who had hit hard times and was struggling to make ends meet - her car hadn't been serviced for a couple of years, would I do it. I agreed, basic service, oil, filter, air filter, check plugs and fluid levels etc. Car turned up, friend went in to chat to Mrs. First thing I checked was oil level, not a drop on the dipstick. I went in and asked her if she'd checked it recently. She said that she had and had topped it up a few weeks before. I said there was nothing on the dipstick and asked how much she'd put in. She said she'd put a bit in, nothing on the dipstick so she put a bit more in, still nothing on the dipstick so she put the whole lot in. Still nothing so she thought there was something wrong with the dipstick. 🤦‍♂️
I drained about 3 litres out and put just over 4 in to bring it to level. Must have been running on around 2 litres before she topped it up (she didn't know what size container she bought, I'm guessing a litre).

Many years ago a friend of ours did exactly the same to help out a mate whose car had not seen a service for a couple of years. Change of oil and new oil filter. I think it was a VW.

His friend collected the car without paying for the oil and went off on his merry way only for the engine to seize about a mile down the road. His friend wanted a new engine, but our friend pointed out that all he had done was change the oil. A lot of words exchanged and they are no longer friends!

I have also been caught out by friends expecting you to do repairs for nothing or on a Pay later basis. Consequently no more jobs for friends.

 

[otherclive]

A few years ago Mrs Beardy asked if I could help out her friend who had hit hard times and was struggling to make ends meet - her car hadn't been serviced for a couple of years, would I do it. I agreed, basic service, oil, filter, air filter, check plugs and fluid levels etc. Car turned up, friend went in to chat to Mrs. First thing I checked was oil level, not a drop on the dipstick. I went in and asked her if she'd checked it recently. She said that she had and had topped it up a few weeks before. I said there was nothing on the dipstick and asked how much she'd put in. She said she'd put a bit in, nothing on the dipstick so she put a bit more in, still nothing on the dipstick so she put the whole lot in. Still nothing so she thought there was something wrong with the dipstick. 🤦‍♂️
I drained about 3 litres out and put just over 4 in to bring it to level. Must have been running on around 2 litres before she topped it up (she didn't know what size container she bought, I'm guessing a litre).

I sold a BX16 estate to a neighbour. After two years ( no servicing) it started to make a funny noise as he explained. I went to look at it and started routine checks. I asked had he put any oil in. “No” he said as he couldn’t find the filler cap but hadn’t checked the dipstick either. On the BX16 the filler cap was right at the front of the engine but it wasn’t a conventional type. It was plastic and combined with the rubber engine breather system. It generally required a wide bladed screwdriver to ease it open. When I removed it the engine breathers were full of white emulsion and no oil on the dipstick. He put some oil in but a couple of weeks later it gave up totally. Then he moaned at me that he’d only recently had new tyres and exhaust. Not my problem. The Owners Manual was still in the glovebox. 🤣

 

[trevormonty]

Just had the ATF changed in my Shogun at 50k miles. No drain plug or dip stick on these Aisin boxes. Drop cross member, drop pan, replace filter, refit pan and crossmember and refill with very expensive Fluid. (Using correct fluid is crucial) All up cost at around £300. This was at a local (trusted) garage not a main dealership. In fact I rate the main dealership a bunch of clowns through personal experience. For the life of me I just can’t see the logic in no dip stick .

Being watching few videos on gearbox servicing since following this discussion.
These are sealed unit so shouldn't loss any fluid unless seal fails which is different issue.
No different from diff or AC which also don't have dipsticks.

Sealed ones have overflow behind drain plug, this overflow is unscrewed to drain transmission totally. After draining transmission it is overfilled then run till operating temp is reach. Drain plug is removed, surplus fluid drains out.
This design means only knowledgeable people do the fluid changes avoiding damage from cowboys.

 

[Buckman]

It is not the loss of the fluid, but the fluid degrading over time especially if towing.

 

[RogerL]

It is not the loss of the fluid, but the fluid degrading over time especially if towing.

That varies from car to car - the degradation happens primarily when the fluid temperature goes above the design maximum - so where the vehicle has adequate cooling there won't be much degradation.

Those cars which are sold in USA and Australia as well as here in the UK will be towing much heavier caravans at higher temperatures at higher speeds (in the USA) so shouldn't be an issue in the UK.

In the case of German-designed cars, they have enough cooling to be driven flat-out (solo) on the autobahn without overheating so shouldn't be a problem towing at much lower speeds.

 

[Ferrodo]

Relating to Auto boxes with no dip stick. The dip stick is a very handy way to keep an eye on the condition of the fluid and hence the state of the mechanics of the box. AF should be a nice cherry red…..always. If it’s black then there is a big problem that is going to end in heart ache. Trouble with the later boxes it is difficult to assess Fluid condition.

 

[Buckman]

Relating to Auto boxes with no dip stick. The dip stick is a very handy way to keep an eye on the condition of the fluid and hence the state of the mechanics of the box. AF should be a nice cherry red…..always. If it’s black then there is a big problem that is going to end in heart ache. Trouble with the later boxes it is difficult to assess Fluid condition.

I have been informed that the fluid could also get contaminated with very metal filings, a natural occurence?

 

[Ferrodo]

I have been informed that the fluid could also get contaminated with very metal filings, a natural occurence?

I’m sure , the same as any mechanical machine bearings wear. The blackening of the fluid is more related to the “clutch plates” in the box breaking down usually caused by ignoring fluid changes and using the incorrect grade of fluid. As stated overheating is a killer.

 

[RogerL]

Relating to Auto boxes with no dip stick. The dip stick is a very handy way to keep an eye on the condition of the fluid and hence the state of the mechanics of the box. AF should be a nice cherry red…..always. If it’s black then there is a big problem that is going to end in heart ache. Trouble with the later boxes it is difficult to assess Fluid condition.

I've always thought that bright red = fresh, dull red = ok, brown = needs changing, black = too late!

My Hyundai Santa Fe didn't have a dipstick but removing the fill/level plug allowed a small sample to be removed and visually examined.