Right to cancel order of new caravan

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Mar 14, 2005
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That’s my point. The caravan that we had ordered hasn’t even started production.
Sadly that does not change your liability under the contract unless it was specifically included within the T&C of the contract you agreed to when you signed it.

Effectively you are seeking to change the contract, and I sure most people would be up in arms if the dealer tried to change an order post signing to benefit them.

I'm not unsympathetic to your position , and I hope you can obtain some relief, but if you do it will be a gesture of good will rather than a contractual obligation.

Under the present situation, have you considered continuing with the purchase with the intention of reselling immediately? you might loose less than your deposit, and with the way the market is booming at the moment, you might actually get more than you paid.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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Sadly that does not change your liability under the contract unless it was specifically included within the T&C of the contract you agreed to when you signed it.

Effectively you are seeking to change the contract, and I sure most people would be up in arms if the dealer tried to change an order post signing to benefit them.

I'm not unsympathetic to your position , and I hope you can obtain some relief, but if you do it will be a gesture of good will rather than a contractual obligation.

Under the present situation, have you considered continuing with the purchase with the intention of reselling immediately? you might loose less than your deposit, and with the way the market is booming at the moment, you might actually get more than you paid.

In most cases I would agree. But is is not always clear cut and 100% binding Just because is exists. Clearly there has to be the essentials,

Agreement, Offer and Acceptance
Consideration (Price)
Capacity (Ability, age and mental)
Intension (Clarity)

But beyond that the terms must be fair. For this reason I worry when I hear things like “hard luck, you signed the contract mate! Contracts must be demonstrated to be fair so can therefore be contested. We must fight for our rights. Not roll over to the inevitable.

I don’t imagine that the four main points above are contested, but when I looked them up to remind me I came across this. It is possibly American. But the explanation of the use of ‘offer’ and ‘acceptance’ . Is the complete opposite to what I was taught in a law module mid 1970’s

We were told that when a dealer advertises a product for £x this is NOT the offer in legal terms (that is the bit many get wrong). The legal offer is what a prospective customer offers to pay for the product, which is not necessarily the advertised price. ‘Acceptance’ (legally). Is the seller accepting whatever offer the customer made.

I have digressed because that is not in dispute here. (So far as I know). I just wondered what others take on those terms are. I was surprised by the explanations, but possibly that is how the Americans use in their legal system which was based on ours. Or someone is wrong!!.

John
 
Jun 16, 2020
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As I could not sleep I may add a thought.

In earlier posts myself and others have cast doubt on the legality of retaining the deposit. As it most likely exceeds the actual cost.

To enforce that idea.

Penalty clauses, although often heard about, are NOT enforcible in English law, (at least commercial law). I believe this dealer wishes to use the deposit as a penalty clause.

However. Liquidated damages, (I remember it as liquidated and asserted damages), are. To put it another way, only actual losses can be claimed. So as the prof said a few posts ago, if that can be shown to be £300 then that, perhaps, should be the amount taken. If the dealer might end up with the van as a liability, (highly unlikely at the present time). Then perhaps further charges could be argued. But if the dealer sells the van for more this might negate cost altogether.

However. If damages are not specified in the original contract, (they certainly would be in commercial contracts). It would appear that the dealer should return the deposit.

My thoughts it must be pointed out, are only based on my doing a very interesting and enjoyable high level module in building law (contracts and tort), over 40 years ago. Plus my own experience. However. I would suggest it is sufficient for the OP to not accept the word of the dealer and get the facts established legally.

To expand on what the prof said re buying then selling the van immediately. The easiest answer imo would be to transfer the contract, just admin time. This could be paid for by the OP or the new purchaser. The OP could even advertise it himself, should the dealer agree. And why should they not. Everyone’s a winner. The dealer gets his sale plus a bit of extra admin costs. The new buyer might pay slightly more than the price already agreed but beats the queue. The OP gets out of the contract.

A win, win, win scenario.

John
 
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One has to give thanks for help and advice posted at 2.56am John!
That's what I call "devotion to duty".

That aside it's interesting to read the range of views and assertions on the topic. If I were the OP I would cling to those that seemed of most benefit to myself and push others to the back of my mind.

I'm sure that, whilst still leaving me confused and unsure, at least I would have some hope!

However...................!

Although it has to be said that opinions expressed here are genuine and should provide fuel for thought, the bottom line remains that advice should be obtained from an appropriate member of the "legal profession" who can give, after considering and having had sight of all relevant documentation, such advice!

CAB would be a place to start as suggested. Sadly the help of a "professional" may still be required.

I wonder if either of the "clubs" could help? Or does any Insurance provide for legal advice?

Hopefully an acceptable outcome for everyone can be found.
 
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That’s my point. The caravan that we had ordered hasn’t even started production.
Have you spoken with CAB yet as on this forum we can only offer what we think may help as none of us are qualified legal experts?

If you are a member of a caravan club their legal department may also be able to offer some advice.
 
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As I could not sleep I may add a thought.

In earlier posts myself and others have cast doubt on the legality of retaining the deposit. As it most likely exceeds the actual cost.

To enforce that idea.

Penalty clauses, although often heard about, are NOT enforcible in English law, (at least commercial law). I believe this dealer wishes to use the deposit as a penalty clause.

However. Liquidated damages, (I remember it as liquidated and asserted damages), are. To put it another way, only actual losses can be claimed. So as the prof said a few posts ago, if that can be shown to be £300 then that, perhaps, should be the amount taken. If the dealer might end up with the van as a liability, (highly unlikely at the present time). Then perhaps further charges could be argued. But if the dealer sells the van for more this might negate cost altogether.

However. If damages are not specified in the original contract, (they certainly would be in commercial contracts). It would appear that the dealer should return the deposit.

My thoughts it must be pointed out, are only based on my doing a very interesting and enjoyable high level module in building law (contracts and tort), over 40 years ago. Plus my own experience. However. I would suggest it is sufficient for the OP to not accept the word of the dealer and get the facts established legally.

To expand on what the prof said re buying then selling the van immediately. The easiest answer imo would be to transfer the contract, just admin time. This could be paid for by the OP or the new purchaser. The OP could even advertise it himself, should the dealer agree. And why should they not. Everyone’s a winner. The dealer gets his sale plus a bit of extra admin costs. The new buyer might pay slightly more than the price already agreed but beats the queue. The OP gets out of the contract.

A win, win, win scenario.

John
I have tried my best to come to some sort of an agreement with the Caravan dealer but to not avail. I have asked them to provide me with a breakdown of costs on their part for the order and cancellation of the order but they have refused to provide those details. I have an appointment next Tuesday to speak with a solicitor. Many thanks.
 
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I have tried my best to come to some sort of an agreement with the Caravan dealer but to not avail. I have asked them to provide me with a breakdown of costs on their part for the order and cancellation of the order but they have refused to provide those details. I have an appointment next Tuesday to speak with a solicitor. Many thanks.
Why are you using a solicitor who costs money when advice from CAB is free? I know it is your choice, but after solicitor fees how much of the deposit will be left?
 
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Why are you using a solicitor who costs money when advice from CAB is free? I know it is your choice, but after solicitor fees how much of the deposit will be left?
Citizens advice said I have no comeback. Having read up on trading standards and a few things that have been said in this thread, I feel that I should get some of my deposit back at least.
 
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Citizens advice said I have no comeback. Having read up on trading standards and a few things that have been said in this thread, I feel that I should get some of my deposit back at least.

I'm very sorry, but nothing I've read on this thread has suggested the dealer is legally obliged to return any of the deposit. We have suggested the present situation seems morally unfair, and it might be worth discussing the situation with the dealer, and apparently that has not been fruitful.

The dealer is not acting illegally, he is just following the procedure specified in the T&C's which you agreed to when you signed the purchase contract.

I pretty certain the CAB would have advised you if the contract could be considered legally unfair, and there was any real prospect of having the contract amended, but as you report the CAB have indicated there is no comeback, and that means your chances of having it changed are really poor.

It's doubtful a solicitor will have any better chance, but it will almost certainly cost you more for the consultation and any action you ask the solicitor to take.

I'm sorry for this but it is what you signed up to.
 
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I have tried my best to come to some sort of an agreement with the Caravan dealer but to not avail. I have asked them to provide me with a breakdown of costs on their part for the order and cancellation of the order but they have refused to provide those details. I have an appointment next Tuesday to speak with a solicitor. Many thanks.

That’s the way to go. IMO, you may get nowhere, but personally I would feel better through trying. Expect the worse and that way you will not be too disappointed.

Keep us posted.

John
 
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I'm very sorry, but nothing I've read on this thread has suggested the dealer is legally obliged to return any of the deposit. We have suggested the present situation seems morally unfair, and it might be worth discussing the situation with the dealer, and apparently that has not been fruitful.

The dealer is not acting illegally, he is just following the procedure specified in the T&C's which you agreed to when you signed the purchase contract.

I pretty certain the CAB would have advised you if the contract could be considered legally unfair, and there was any real prospect of having the contract amended, but as you report the CAB have indicated there is no comeback, and that means your chances of having it changed are really poor.

It's doubtful a solicitor will have any better chance, but it will almost certainly cost you more for the consultation and any action you ask the solicitor to take.

I'm sorry for this but it is what you signed up to.

I will not repeat what I have already written but Which put it quite well


John
 
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I will not repeat what I have already written but Which put it quite well


John
That may be true, but I would like to think the CAB would be aware of such circumstances if it applied the the OP, and would have advised him of such.
 
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I will not repeat what I have already written but Which put it quite well


John
Thanks an interesting read, but the actual text isn’t quite as categorical as the sentence in black in the link that you have posted. It would be interesting to see how similar are contracts used by different caravan dealerships used for new caravan purchases. Often trade bodies use similar contract terms and conditions for commonality. They will most likely have been reviewed by the legal dept to bowl out any obvious weaknesses.

Our daughters MIL wanted to change her Lexus for a Prius and duly paid the deposit. Around three weeks later she changed her mind and the cancellation wasn’t cheap. The dealer explained that the Prius she had ordered had lots of options and would not be a popular purchase by anyone else, and it was already plugged in to the production schedules in Japan. Shes still running the Lexus……brilliant car.
 
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Thanks an interesting read, but the actual text isn’t quite as categorical as the sentence in black in the link that you have posted. It would be interesting to see how similar are contracts used by different caravan dealerships used for new caravan purchases. Often trade bodies use similar contract terms and conditions for commonality. They will most likely have been reviewed by the legal dept to bowl out any obvious weaknesses.

Our daughters MIL wanted to change her Lexus for a Prius and duly paid the deposit. Around three weeks later she changed her mind and the cancellation wasn’t cheap. The dealer explained that the Prius she had ordered had lots of options and would not be a popular purchase by anyone else, and it was already plugged in to the production schedules in Japan. Shes still running the Lexus……brilliant car.

Often to calculate liquidated damages will be very difficult and not an exact science. But at least in your daughters MIL case they tried to negotiate.

Regarding standardisation of contracts. I agree, But the sceptic in me, (and supported by that Which link). Says clauses such as ‘non refundable deposit’. Are put in there to frighten the customer to try to ensure they abide by the agreement whatever their change of circumstances. And to have an easy income if the customer pulls out. Oddly, there is no law to say they can’t put in unenforcible terms, and if those terms are not contested they are on to a winner.

With the link I was just trying to demonstrate support for my previous posts and for the OP’s plight. There is nothing certain, but there is certainly a good chance and hope. I do try to be optimistic.

John
 
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That may be true, but I would like to think the CAB would be aware of such circumstances if it applied the the OP, and would have advised him of such.

You would hope so wouldn’t you. But such is life. Just look at how many think a penelty clause is enforceable.

John
 
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You would hope so wouldn’t you. But such is life. Just look at how many think a penelty clause is enforceable.

John

A properly constructed penalty clause is enforceable. there have been many civil engineering projects where a contractor has defaulted and ended up paying for the default.

Another classic situation is where some overstays in a car park, and they given a penalty charge. Whilst some contest the charge and the charge is waived for some it only reduced and the car park operator has had the charge enforced by bailiffs authorised by the courts.

So some penalty charges are enforceable.

But I'm not sure the OP's case would be classed or or actioned like a Penalty Charge. The fundamental difference is the OP has already signed a purchase contract which affirms his agreement to the T&C's which includes the non returnable deposit clause. Secondly the OP has paid without question the required deposit, so the funds are already with the company.

Consequently the company does not need to issue a Penalty Charge or to instigate further proceedings.

Because the company is already legitimately in possession of the fund by taking the agreed deposit in accordance with the T&C's, it's not asking for additional funds arising from a breach of contract, its only taking a course of action the OP has agreed to.

As I have said before I would love to be wrong, and whilst I do agree its important to try to offer reasonable hope, but its equally important not to offer false hope or to suggest a fruitless course of action that is likely to prove to be risky.
 
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I do know that the construction industry are well aware of how to deal with ‘penelty’ clauses. And you are nearly right. A well constructed penalty clause is enforceable . But it is only colloquially called a penalty clause. The proper term is Liquidated and ascertained damages. Quite a different thing.

I refer you back to the Which link. Yes there are cases penalty clauses can be used. But that is not the norm. I think that was made clear.

Clauses within a contract are only enforceable if the are legal. It matters not that the parties signed up to it. It is not, in itself, illegal to include clauses within a contract which are in themselves illegal or stretching what is correct and legal. And it is done often deliberately to coerce. Therefore they are fair game to contest.

In my opinion. And my reading of the Which article, theirs too. Where a deposit is used as a penalty clause. It becomes a penalty clause.

The real purpose of a penalty clause is to secure a product.

I think wise hotels for example, get round the ‘non returnable deposit‘ thing by pre establishing their likely losses should there be a cancellation. So in fact the are not using the deposit as a penalty, but as damages which they can easily defend. That is certainly not the case here, plus the dealer refuses to provide a brake down. Even worse.

We have differing opinions, but I firmly believe the use of deposits in this way is indefensible. And more should be aware and stand up for their rights. But I repeat. Even if my assertions are incorrect, it’s worth a go. So long as the OP has the mindset to expect nothing, then everything achieved is a bonus. I will be very interested in what the OP’s solicitor advises. Re CAB, aren’t they often staffed by well meaning amateurs.

Interestingly, there have been similar discussions in conveyancing. You may wish to read a summary of the case law.

Link

Also. Try Googling ‘is a deposit a penalty’. See this.


John
 
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I pretty certain the CAB would have advised you if the contract could be considered legally unfair, and there was any real prospect of having the contract amended, but as you report the CAB have indicated there is no comeback, and that means your chances of having it changed are really poor.

In 2017 we used CAB regarding rejecting a 11 month old caravan. Their advice was completely incorrect and if we had followed their advice we would have been several thousand pounds out of pocket. The CAMC also gave us the incorrect advice. However on a previous occasion CAB gave us good advice.

We never used CAB, but contacted "Which Legal Services" and using the appropriate legislation we got a full refund plus compensation even though we had to approach FOS. It cost us at the time about £90 for the year for as much legal advice as required.

CAB is good but depends on who is handling the case and their knowledge of the relevant legislation.
 
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A properly constructed penalty clause is enforceable. there have been many civil engineering projects where a contractor has defaulted and ended up paying for the default.

Another classic situation is where some overstays in a car park, and they given a penalty charge. Whilst some contest the charge and the charge is waived for some it only reduced and the car park operator has had the charge enforced by bailiffs authorised by the courts.

So some penalty charges are enforceable.

But I'm not sure the OP's case would be classed or or actioned like a Penalty Charge. The fundamental difference is the OP has already signed a purchase contract which affirms his agreement to the T&C's which includes the non returnable deposit clause. Secondly the OP has paid without question the required deposit, so the funds are already with the company.

Consequently the company does not need to issue a Penalty Charge or to instigate further proceedings.

Because the company is already legitimately in possession of the fund by taking the agreed deposit in accordance with the T&C's, it's not asking for additional funds arising from a breach of contract, its only taking a course of action the OP has agreed to.

As I have said before I would love to be wrong, and whilst I do agree its important to try to offer reasonable hope, but its equally important not to offer false hope or to suggest a fruitless course of action that is likely to prove to be risky.

The type of contract mentioned above has no bearing on this case as it is not a consumer contract, it is a business contract so no relevance.
 
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At £90 it might be better for the OP to use Which as their legal advise is more likely to be focused on a consumer issue than your local solicitor.

Excellent idea. Is that an option on the Which subscription, Does the £90 include all benifits, do you know. Would they just advise rather than get involved with a letter for example. As that can make an impression on the seller.

I wonder, if it was in my case, I have CSMA legal help. But that is restricted to motoring issues. Not sure this sort of thing would be covered as it is peripheral perhaps.



John
 
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At £90 it might be better for the OP to use Which as their legal advise is more likely to be focused on a consumer issue than your local solicitor.

We did initially approach a solicitor, but even with my limited knowledge of CRA 2015 gleaned from various caravan forums, I knew more about CRA 2015 than him! The letter that he drafted was virtually identical word for word to the summary that I handed over to the solicitor. Nearly £600 later nothing. WSL was definitely the better option as they deal with consumer issues every day. 👍 :ROFLMAO:
 
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Excellent idea. Is that an option on the Which subscription, Does the £90 include all benifits, do you know. Would they just advise rather than get involved with a letter for example. As that can make an impression on the seller.

I wonder, if it was in my case, I have CSMA legal help. But that is restricted to motoring issues. Not sure this sort of thing would be covered as it is peripheral perhaps.



John
Haven’t a clue as since Buckman found Which very helpful that’s why I suggested it. Boundless legal assistance isn’t if any use in the context of the OPs dilemma.
 

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