Scan ALL caravans leaving ports

[Gumbo]

The Insurance Company is Not Running at a Loss on Caravan Insurance so why would you expect them to install equipment to Prevent Loss ????.

The premium is paid by You/Us because of the Fear of Losing your/our Caravan.

A Car is different you are paying for the third party risk, you may hit a RR costing

 

[DeliDave]

Cant see why dealers cant scan either to check that chip is still live and that details correspond.I wouldnt be offended if I was checked anywhere i can agree that there would not be a great market in France holland Germany but I could beleive a lot go on ferries to a nearer country

 

[Bob_374248583]

Then perhaps we should do it ourselves. The CC say they have 900,000 members. The C&CC probably have a similar number.

 

[Lutz]

As I mentioned before, caravan theft is almost unheard of over here on the Continent. Consequently, the insurance premiums are also very much lower. It seems to me that so long as UK owners are prepared to pay the higher premiums there is no incentive fot the insurance companies to do much against thefts because they will always recover the cost of claims through these higher premiums. So don't expect the insurance companies to be pro-active.

 

[ShadySadie]

Bob, I can't see that having your caravan stolen is any more traumatic than having your home burgled or your car stolen. Your space and belongings have been violated just the same.

I think around 2000 or so caravans a year are said to be stolen.

In comparison to cars and other vehicles that is a drop in the ocean.

If stopping theft was as easy as Bob thinks. Please tell me why vehicle insurers have not done something about it.

Tags that can be scanned are hidden on a vehicle or caravan so it is hard to find them. Hidden tags can't be scanned from a distance or anyone could find them and remove and replace or probabaly reprogram them.

Somebody that steals your caravan will burgle your home or steal your car if you cut a line of ill gotten income.

Addressing GB social needs and behaviour is what is needed.

The diffence between UK and other parts of europe is behaviour.

Vehicle insurers would have acted insisting on tags being fitted to all vehcles long ago with their thefts outnumbering caravan thefts by miles.

 

[GeorgeB]

Its not often I'm brave enough to disagree with a female.....so here goes! Sadie I'm sorry you're wrong in your assuption that theft on the continent is less than it is in the UK & its all down to "behaviour.Theft is still prevelant on the continent!!!!

The reason cars are not "Tagged" is that since the early 90's they all have ignition immobilisers & it's proving to be virtually immpossible to have the system recoded without the necessary documentation proving ownership. The only way to steal a modern car is to steal the key first, & has that put the scumbags off.....no, but it has stopped an awful ,lot of car thefts!

Caravans do not have a simmular ignition system, so security tagging is the way that the manufactures have taken, with the security tag (microdots) its possible to "Zap" them but NOT to reprogramme them, so, if a van is nicked & the lowlife scumbag zaps all the taggs, how is he going to explain that away when the van gets scanned?????

As I've stated previously, the scanners are cheap, & its a simple but highly effective way of "Dissuading" (its not possible to totaly eliminate theft)the scumbags, 'cause if the van has little or no resale value, they're going to leave them alone!

Once again....come on Practical Caravan Mag....Champion the cause!

 

[g_374369443]

Great idea me thinks!!!!!!! but then not all vans are criss registered,nor could that ever become a legal requirement!

So its not that a sound idea.

And what makes people think customs are going to look out for your caravans!They have more important things to do than that!

And what make you think the police will be there to help either!

How many times have you herd someone say "they had seen there van being towed away and in which direction it was heading" and the police? Well they noted it, that's all.

So a handful of stolen vans finds there way abroad! and it is only a handful,and you really want the custom men to scan every van for a handful a stolen vans!clearly not much of importance going on then...

 

[Lutz]

Not true about caravan thefts being an issue on the Continent, too, George. My caravan has been stored on a site together with about 50 or 60 others for 16 years and in all that time only one caravan was stolen despite the fact that the fence is rusty chicken wire and the lock would surrender at the first sight of a bolt cutter. I just can't believe that the average person on the Continent is any more or less honest. Car thefts are certainly an issue, but, unless exported to Eastern Europe, stolen cars are broken up and disposed of as spares, not as complete cars.

 

[ShadySadie]

Sorry to disagree with a gentleman George, but plenty of cars are stolen with imobilisers, including UK RH drive models that are then exported.

You seem to fail to grasp the point that many more vehicles are stolen in comparison to caravans, if a simple tag and scanners at ports, services and motorway gantries was an easy answer cars and other vehicles would have had them long ago.

Caravans do not have engines that is why they have tags not imobilisers. My point re continental theft was re Lutz saying that caravan theft is less on the continent.

Hand held scanners are cheap becuase they have an operator who sweeps cats dogs or vehicles with them. The tags and how they are used and the scanners are not suited to some kind of drive by process of scanning.

If you can find a tag you can remove it or zap it and replace it. Its the same way that credit card system providers find that sales of machines to program the chips and emboss the cards exceed normal user numbers as blank cards can be made and programmed by organised crime.

Sorry George but you still seem to fail with the ammount of theft of cars, vans, lorries and plant machinery in the UK in comparison to caravans.

We have friends in crane and plant hire business's where theft is a massive cost factor. If tagging and microdots were a simple detterent they would have jumped at them used them long ago. Microdots are a visible deterent detected using altraviolet the same as for pen markers used on electrical goods.

If police locate them with ultraviolet so can thieves.

"SECURITY CHIPS

A special security chip is concealed within

the body of every caravan. This chip

contains the individual identity of your

caravan and can only be read by using a

special decoder. Your local police can obtain

the use of a decoder by contacting C.R.I.S.

on telephone no: 01722 411430"

That is from Swift, so the police have to find it and then scan it to find the owners details.

I doubt that the chips CRIS use and the decoder are unique items so they will be availbale by fair means or foul to some low life if there is so much money to be made exporting caravans.

Police will not even go on to travellers camps around our area to check out Vehicles, Hyabs, Kubotas or Caravans.

I give little chance for a high tech cure for theft using chips and cheap scanners.

Sorry George, your hearts in the right place but the technology is not what you think it is.

 

[Bob_374248583]

I have to disagree. I am talking about scanners that are automatic. Yes hand held scanners are used by police etc and I am sure they work just fine. Probably takes a few minutes. But I am not talking about this type of scanner. There are scanners available that can scan a caravan, or any other type of vehicle as it passes. Caravans have tags, so why not use them? Yes we may have to change the type of tag if the current ones are unscannable. So lets do it.

The only reason it is not done is our complacancy, and a can't do attitude. Vehicle theft is down. That has been achieved by fitting better equipment, locks, immobilisers etc. So why not get caravan theft down? If a thief thinks they will be caught or the van recovered then that devalues a stolen caravan, and that in turn makes them less of a target. Right now they know they can get away with it, so hey lets steal caravans and make a packet.

All this idea needs is a commitment to solve the problem. A central player such as PRACTICAL CARAVAN, to campaign and the participation of CRiS, NCC, CC, C&CC, Police and insurers along with the support of us the caravanners. How difficult can that be?

Come on PRACTICAL CARAVAN what about a campaign?

 

[ShadySadie]

I think there is some confusion between small chips that are imbeded in Caravans and even bicycles, then "tags" that can be scanned from a distance.

Bob you ask for a central player to get behind a hair brained scheme when all the major players of the automotive industry and insuarance comapanies and the big player underwriters ignore the technology you think could virtually rid us of vehicle theft.

Once again the might of the auto industry with all the technology used in modern day cars is now missing a simple cheaper theft detterent that would do away with the exepensive security devices used in modern cars ;0)

Can we have a double helping of what ever you are on, one post has cars with expensive imobilisers that have cut theft, and then we have a couple of pounds per head from caravanners making the UK a no go area for thieves.

May be a business womans hard headed logic, but there is a big flaw in there somewhere.

I think PC will be chuckling as much as I am.

I for one wouldn't support such a scheme as it's as likely to work as I am to fly under my own steam.

Can I suggest you try Dragons Den, those boys are up for a nice little earner.

 

[Lutz]

I still think the most workable solution is to register caravans with their own number plate. The number plate can be read at a distance and while on the move and the police can check the details in the same way as they would for a car, so no extra hardware would be needed.

 

[ShadySadie]

Have you not heard of false plates Lutz?

In the UK people get speeding and penalty fines and congestion charge fines when they have been nowhere near where the car has been caught. Thieves just copy a plate from a similar vehicle.

 

[Bob_374248583]

Once again Shady Sadie I disagree with you. You clain this to be a hair brained scheme. I think not, and niether do IBM or the goverment, which I admit is not much of a reccomendation, but that would be straying from the point. You say it would not work. Then just do a bit of internet research and you will see that it does. In fact the government are planning on putting a chip in our numberplates. Not sure where you live, but possibly yours as well, and the time is not too far away.

Quote. In April 2006, DVLA's partner IBM, were commissioned to produce an analysis of consideration for introducing an RFID based system for the purposes of vehicle identification and road pricing. In summary, the analysis concluded the active tag would appear to be the only proven solution to identify a moving vehicle at a reasonable distance in freeflowing traffic. End quote. Source http://whereismydata.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/enp_report.pdf

These chips can be read from about 100m and at speeds of about 200 kmh. A manufacturer has also been identified in Hull.

DVLA may have a different reason for using the system, but why not use it for our benefit.

So before trying to belittle others and make out that your business accumen bestowes you with the font of all knowledge, I would suggest that you do a little research. I think that with a will this system could and more importantly would work, and would reduce caravan crime. And why stop there. The system could also detect the theft of any moving object such as plant or even cars.

You suggest that the auto industry with all their might would not miss the use of a simple system. But theirs is a different problem. I don't see many teenage joy riders taking a Fleetwood for a spin and a jolly. That's the difference. Caravans are stolen for the resale value. We are talking about totally different concepts.

The tag currently placed in caravans may not work, I don't know, I have never tried it. Have you?

You claim to be a business woman. I can see a business opportunity here were I wanting to start one. Can't you?

Bob

 

[Lutz]

Have you not heard of false plates Lutz?

In the UK people get speeding and penalty fines and congestion charge fines when they have been nowhere near where the car has been caught. Thieves just copy a plate from a similar vehicle.

As the population density of caravans is so much lower than that of cars, the thieves jobs of trying to find a similar model from which they could copy the number plate would be considerable and require a lot more effort than in the case of stolen cars.

I know it would not be a perfect solution but certainly relatively easy to implement.

 

[ShadySadie]

So there you go, if HM Gordonmental Depts are planning to scan our number plates they are obviously going to elliminate vehicle theft.

Any measure that releases officer Dibble to persecute more motorists will soon be rolled out to encompass caravans!

Job done Bob, PC management who can't afford to upgrade the forum engine can sleep easy whilst sticking to the present budget constraints!

Of course its bound to work and will only cost the tax payer a few extra millions to cover the directors and consultants from the manyfacturer who just happen to be ex Labour MP's or chronies.

I can't wait for this enhanced police state, no doubt we'll soon have chips in your under crackers and my bra so they can track us and everyone else as well.

Rewind the callender and just call every year 1984.

Just one other point, are all the exported stolen caravans towed down to Spain with the thieves own legally registered cars?

I think not ;O)

ps

If we closed Spain down criminals would have nowhere left to go, would that not be cheaper?

 

[Bob_374248583]

We are already being tracked by HM Gov. But by a different system, and for different reasons. My suggestion is slightly different.

I want a system that spots stolen caravans. I personally don't care a jot if HM Gov sees me driving through London or anywhere else. My wife might, but that is again a different story . If Mr Notsododgy buys a stolen caravan from Mr Dodgy in the pub, then a scanning system may spot Mr Notsododgy heading away for a quiet weekend in my very nice Coachman as he heads down the M6 or leaving the Port of Hull. The system can be automatic and when a stolen caravan is registered the police can be made aware of the location and recover the van. The insurance are happy, they get the van and sell it on to recover their costs. I might be happy if the van is captured before it disappears to Ireland or Spain.

In addition to the recovery of stolen caravans, the thieving gits will know that if they try to go into a port or drive along a motorway the van will be spotted. At the moment there must be a list a mile long of stolen caravans and it is impractical to think that customs or police will check every van they see. To a non caravanner all caravans are the same. A white box on wheels. A system of scanners will spot the van.

While the government may be considering such a system, I am under no illusions that they are doing it to help me or you. But that should not stop us, the caravanners. If we as a group get together we are a potent force to be reckoned with. LETS DO IT. The technology does exist. I really don't understand why any true caravanners would NOT support such a scheme, unless they were very shady characters!!

So Nigel. What do you think? Will Practical Caravan support this?

Bob

 

[Bob_374248583]

We are already being tracked by HM Gov. But by a different system, and for different reasons. My suggestion is slightly different.

I want a system that spots stolen caravans. I personally don't care a jot if HM Gov sees me driving through London or anywhere else. My wife might, but that is again a different story . If Mr Notsododgy buys a stolen caravan from Mr Dodgy in the pub, then a scanning system may spot Mr Notsododgy heading away for a quiet weekend in my very nice Coachman as he heads down the M6 or leaving the Port of Hull. The system can be automatic and when a stolen caravan is registered the police can be made aware of the location and recover the van. The insurance are happy, they get the van and sell it on to recover their costs. I might be happy if the van is captured before it disappears to Ireland or Spain.

In addition to the recovery of stolen caravans, the thieving gits will know that if they try to go into a port or drive along a motorway the van will be spotted. At the moment there must be a list a mile long of stolen caravans and it is impractical to think that customs or police will check every van they see. To a non caravanner all caravans are the same. A white box on wheels. A system of scanners will spot the van.

While the government may be considering such a system, I am under no illusions that they are doing it to help me or you. But that should not stop us, the caravanners. If we as a group get together we are a potent force to be reckoned with. LETS DO IT. The technology does exist. I really don't understand why any true caravanners would NOT support such a scheme, unless they were very shady characters!!

So Nigel. What do you think? Will Practical Caravan support this?

Bob

I would also be in favour of shutting down Spain

 

[ShadySadie]

Technology is one thing, technology that is reliable, gives consistent results and needs minimal maintenance is another story.

No way is a scanner system at ports, service areas or on major roads going to be viable finance wise just for a few stolen caravans.

Caravan theft is not a pleasant experience for any owner, number of thefts compared to number of caravans is quite small and no industry or owners group could fund a one off undertaking to stop theft.

As for the Police retrieving stolen caravans, they know where many go now and do nothing about it!

You're banging your drum for nothing Bob, caravan community alone could never fund such an expensive scheme.

 

[Parksy]

I would think that more stolen caravans stay within the UK than are taken abroad by thieves notwithstanding the recent case where the stolen caravans were found in Spain.

I can't speak for anyone else but my caravan was fitted with a tracking device from new and I pay an annual subscription to keep the system active.

I very much doubt if I'd ever want to see my caravan again if I was an unfortunate victim of caravan theft but my insurance policy stipulates the use of a fully operational tracking system to comply with my policy.

Why would a Government agency have any interest in funding this suggested scanner system when the option for caravan owners to pay for a tracking system such as Phantom etc already exists?

 

[JTS]

Bob, you want it - you pay for it.

I am with Shady Sadie and Parksy on this one.

JTS.

 

[Bob_374248583]

I already do. I also have a monitored tracker fitted, and pay for insurance. That amounts to several hundred pounds per year. I am not suggesting that a govt agency pay for this system. They wouldn't.

I do have a question for all the nay sayers though. Why are you all so negative? If you know how expensive such a system would be, or are so clewed up on the technology to know that it is not feasible I would be very interested in the replies. But to just rubbish an idea with no knowledge or understanding is somewhat baffling. I have not said I know the answeres either, but I do believe that such a system is worth exploring. Why not, it would be for the benefit of us all, not just me?

As I have said all along, it just needs someone to ask the questions as to how it CAN be done. Not why it can't.

 

[Parksy]

My point Bob is that I already have at my disposal technology to warn me if my caravan moves just a couple of feet without my knowledge. No system is completely infallible but the one that I already use and pay for does exactly what you are saying that this yet to be explored system would do.

The question for me isn't whether it can or can't be done.

It's why SHOULD it be done?

Research and developement of a system of the kind that you're proposing costs money. To run it would also cost money. Who pays?

Practical Caravan Magazine? So the price of the magazine would rise. Insurance companies? Premiums would rise and I already fund a tracking device to keep my premiums lower. The Government? Taxes would be used to pay then.

Whichever way you look at it Bob you want me to pay extra one way or another.

The question that I'm most interested in is why should I?

 

[Bob_374248583]

At the start of this thread I asked the question why do we not use the electronic tag, which is fitted as standard in most caravans? Like you I have a tracker, so hopefully my van would be stopped before ever going near a port or anywhere else. But probably like you I pay over

 

[Parksy]

My insurance company already see a saving in the fact that I use a tracking system and they pass some of the saving on to me through a reduced insurance premium. If this funding came from the insurance companies where do you think they'd get the money from? If the two major clubs funded this project the modest levy that you mention would be levied against who?

The tracker that I already pay for is supposed to see to it that if my caravan is stolen it will be spotted and stopped and thieves deterred.

Why then would I have any interest in helping to fund another system to do what I already pay for anyway?