Scan ALL caravans leaving ports

[ShadySadie]

Chips imbedded in caravans are different to "tags and "trackers".

Hidden chips are not the sort of technology that can be scanned from a distance. Other technology has issues such as power supply.

Trackers are well known for not working, has no one asked themselves why a car manufacturer does not fit a tracker system to all its cars.

According to what I read trackers should deter thieves as they alert the providers control centre when the caravan moves so the police can be alerted. Bob now wants a system that scans caravans at ports, service areas or motorways/major roads. Trackers are not cheap, so how on earth will a new system come in as affordable.

Will insurers back another system putting the trackers out of business? Probably not.

My Merc could have a tracker, but I get the insurance cheaper without the tracker the same as I do for our caravan.

Why bother with the cost of a tracker when they don't always work, if my caravan was stolen the chances are I would not want it back from the most likely culprits.

There has to be a balance between the number of units stolen and the cost of the deterent. Until a new system guaranteed as being cost effective happens a long it's never going to happen.

Bob has come up with nothing re costing and I does not seem to understand the technologies, problems and drawbacks with them.

 

[Bob_374248583]

This blog started with the idea of fitting the equipment at ports and scanning caravans as they moved through the port. You claim I do not understand the technology. Wrong. I do. RFID technology is very widely used. You say car manufactures do not use it. Wrong. VW Audi implant a RFID tag in every car. And others may well be using the technology. As for cost. A RFID tag costs maybe

 

[ShadySadie]

So your intention is that RFID tags are used, RFID tags are very very easily disabled.

Who polices this at ports?

Where will your scanners be positioned?

RFID scanners are not designed for scanning moving vehicles as far as we know.

So do we all slow down in caravans to be scanned on entry?

do ports build caravan only

 

[ShadySadie]

Sorry for the glitch,

Do ports build caravan only lanes or does avery check in get scanners.

Dover had NPR long before it was known to the general public.

Pulling up at Dover this past week the cars plate is scanned and the P&O check in chap knew who was in the car before we had got the paperwork out.

Bob, that's the same now for the thieves exporting their ill gotten gains.

If those deterents don't stop thieves using a port run to dispose of stolen caravans your Tag will not!

Scanners have to be linked to an operator or a computer system!

The point you seem not to take on board Bob is that if a simple tag would stop theft and the trafficking of caravans it would work for all other vehicles and every one would jump on your band wagon ages ago.

Why have they not? Because it will not work and your idea of costing is pie in the sky.

You have still not come up with a figure for stolen UK caravans per annum Bob or how many leave the country.

You just have to understand that unless tens of thousands of caravns are being spriritd from our ports you are barking up the wrong gum tree.

 

[Bob_374248583]

You seem to know all the answers. So please tell us. I have repeatedly said I do not have all the answers. This is only an idea. And before you answer please do some research. RFID are designed to track moving objects. They do not use any power and they are very small. Cost at this stage is purely guesswork. I am not promoting it, just putting the idea forward for discussion. But if you disagree then please do, but give me your informed reasons.

 

[ShadySadie]

It's beyond my business head as to how you can ask PC to get behind your scheme/idea when you have no idea about the costs or what really works Bob.

And you are wrong RFID tags need a power source, how else would they work?

The day we have something that works without power is a strange concept!

RFID tags are run from an electrical power source ( lithium battery cell ) or powered up by an eletromagnetic field from the scanning system.

A large electromagnetic field needed to scan an unpowered RFID chip on a moving caravan would probably not be a good idea for the tow cars electronics my engineer husband tells me!

All I can say is that a client company's subsiduary is involved with this sort of technology.

Once eveyone knows that a tag is attached it is easy to disable it!

Who is doing the monitoring when a unit passes with no signal? Remove a tag from your own legal van and put it on another stolen one and you can drive it wherever you want Bob.

Without visible checks or monitoring a system using an RFID tag as an anti theft device would be reliant on computers, cameras and staff and numerous other elements.

As annoying as caravan thefts are Bob you still have not addressed the total numbers of caravans stolen each year!

Still you have come up with no answer to why your system would work with caravans when auto thefts are far greater than caravan thefts and the car industry has made no use f the technlogy to prevent theft. We also believe VAG tags are only used to identify a car not to prevent it going where it shouldn't, and are only used on some of their cars.

 

[Bob_374248583]

While most of what you say is true and most of the shortcomings are also true. However I do believe that they are not insurmountable problems. No system such as this will be problem free. Should such an idea get off the ground it would involve hard work by many engineers and security savvy people to overcome the problems. It would also need the cooperation of quite a few agencies.

As to the power I was referring to the fact that rfid's use the power from the scanner rather than the tag. You are right there are a few different types. Including those with a battery or other power source. I am sure there are many technical obstacles. But I am also sure that an approach to a company specialising in such a system would answer many of the foreseen problems, and probably generate quite a few more.

As for numbers of thefts, I have seen quite a few estimates, ranging from 2000 to 4000 per year. I do not know the true figure and at this stage have no way of knowing. I can only guess. Perhaps an industry insider could supply a more realistic figure. That would be most helpful.

You mention cars, and car theft. I think we are talking about two different types of theft on the whole. Cars are stolen, but for different reasons to caravans. Cars are taken for joyrides, use in other crime, as well as resale here and abroad, and broken for parts. Most caravan theft will be for their resale value, and I am sure parts. A few of course will be used by the thief to live in, but I believe most will be resold through networks and eventually either resold in this country or taken to Ireland and Europe. That's not to say that caravans once exported are not eventually returned and once again enter the home market. But the theft is for resale value not joyriding or use in bank raids.

This is only an idea, and I do admit that there are many shortcomings. Not least is who benefits. I would say that the prime beneficiary would be the insurance companies as more caravans would be recovered. I would also say, and sadly have been in that position, that once stolen I would not want my van back unless recovered very quickly. I am under no illusions as to where insurance companies have their loyalty. They do not give a jot about us caravanners. All they want is our cash, and calculate a sustainable loss figure while maintaining a reasonable profit. A caravan is a box on wheels to them, no matter what their advertising may say. A case in point is when I recently reinsured my van. I purchased an Abbey just before the recent announcements. The girl I spoke to rightly pointed out that Abbey were no more and a new for old policy could not supply an Abbey. So she said I would have to insure for a Bessacarr replacement. Equal I think not, (not to mention that they are also out of production), but highlights that the insurers are insuring an object and have no idea what a caravan is or represents. It only has a value.

But having said that insurers would be the prime beneficiary, we would also benefit as the numbers of thefts reduced, which should reduce the risk, and therefore the premium.

I am sure everyone has an opinion how to reduce caravan theft. This was just one idea, which I still believe could be explored further. Perhaps to no avail, but may also succeed. PC Mag spends money on research or promoting it. Why not campaign to see if this system could be made to work. They know, or could find out who to ask. The companies supplying the technology would want the business so would also contribute to the debate. As I am sure would others, such as CRiS, insurance companies, manufacturers, ferry companies, police, customs etc.

As I have said, I do not know all the answers, and neither do I have the expertise, especially in electronic engineering. All I wanted to initiate was a debate. Sadly no one with expert knowledge has contributed. Other than to raise problems, which of course need answers. I am not presenting a finished plan, just an idea to be debated. The plan hopefully will become reality, or not, following an informed debate. So let's try to solve the problems.

 

[empee]

Wow - this is getting heated!

Regarding tags and chips though - how do those toll things work - the ones where you just drive right through the toll booths without stopping because you've prepaid?

These surely must have some kind of security built in otherwise someone would be making a fortune selling fakes!

Any security can be beaten I suppose - but that doesn't stop us locking our doors!

 

[ShadySadie]

We have a Severn bridge tag account, if one of my staff has to go to Wales they take the Tag and the company account is debited automatically. The tag is quite bulky and is swapped between the company cars. They only work with a clear view from the windscreen, as a security device they are useless.

 

[ShadySadie]

For Bob

"BUNGLING Whitehall chiefs have left taxpayers with an

 

[empee]

So Shady what they need to do is figure out a way to build one of those tag type things into a part of the caravan where it could be read by an overhead gantry.

Sounds like it would probably involve considerable development costs for the manufacturers but still worthy perhaps of entry onto their 'to do' list!

 

[Parksy]

I have no desire to be rude or cause upset to anyone but I must be missing something here.

I have a sattelite based tracking system coupled to a whacking great 113ah leisure battery fitted to my caravan which is in secure storage. I have a spare leisure battery in my garage fully charged.

If I forget to phone the operations center of my tracking device administration and move my caravan across the storage yard they are on the phone before I could open the storage yard gates. (this has happened twice)

If I change my leisure battery over and forget to inform them beforehand they are on the telephone immediately to tell me that my caravan is being tampered with and that the power supply was interrupted. (Two weeks ago)

If my caravan did go missing despite the security precautions described plus other standard items e.g. locks, alarm, owner living on storage site then it is possible to pinpoint the location, again without research, scanners etc.

All of this without driving underneath gantries, going anywhere near to motorways, ports or even roads of any sort.

All of this without the need for further developement or cost.

Why would I need anything in addition to what I have at present?

 

[Bob_374248583]

I have seen that in the news and it makes me glad I don't work for the government. Perhaps they should get a private company to do the work then give it to the DVLA. I don't know of any government project that didn't go belly up. So the moral of that tale is don't let the government anyway near this idea. But having a go at the government is straying from the subject.

In answer to your question Parksy. Cost. I am no expert, but I do not believe that trackers are the way forward. Despite having one, and keeping my fingers crossed that they do. They are expensive to fit and expensive to run. And they seem very easy to defeat with a fairly cheap blocker. You can get them for less than

 

[Guest]

A relative took a two week spur of the moment trip to Spain with their caravan last year. Half way home they got a call in France from their daughter.

The tracker company wanted to know if their caravan had been moved from their garden.

A friend in Surrey had his Mercedes stolen a few months ago and another chap we know of had a BMW stolen and then the replacement a few months later. All three were reported within an hour of the thefts and were never found.

The're not the only tracker failures by a long mark.

 

[Parksy]

But if I've paid a tracking firm to monitor my caravan and it is stolen but they fail to warn me then they would be liable for any costs incurred to my insurers?

I must admit that I wouldn't want a stolen / recovered caravan back if it had been used or damaged.

As far as I'm concerned by paying 90 odd pounds per annum to Phantom amongst other measures and making sure that my power supply is adequate for my alarm/tracking device then my obligation to my insurance company is met.

 

[Gafferbill]

Trackers do not prevent caravans being stolen.

At best they may lead to you being informed that yours has been.

Unless the culprit is stopped quickly your van may never be returned.

Until caravans have individual legal paperwork as proof of ownership

and a sturdy identity marking so that the caravan can be linked to the paperwork,

any port or other surveillance is pointless.

A legal requirement to register all caravans on a national database and a caravan MOT to regularly check highway safety items and the caravan's identity markings, would have to be a first step.

How else can you, the police or the Courts, prove there is a right of possession.

The man caught at Dover with your caravan could produce a signed receipt, and say he bought it privately in good faith from a man in a pub.

(A CRIS document is not a legal requirement)

 

[ProfJohnL]

For what its worth, I agree with Gaffer, I dont see a caravan monitoring scheme begomming a reality without central Govt, taking a leading role in the process, and that offers no gurantees.

Just consider we already have sophisticated scanning equipt for identifying cars and lorries by thier number plates, yet despite this how can so many still be stolen and spirited away?

Clearly there are either loopholes in the process, or it is too easy for theives to change the identiy of a vehicle to get it through the basic roadside checks.

If this is the case for vehicles which have all been fully registered from thier construction, how much more difficult will it be to get the full details of all trailers recorded? Note I wrote trailers, this is becuase in road usage terms there is no difference between a caravan and any other trailer.

With no disrespect to any owners who have lost a caravan, but in national terms, the value of caravan theft is very small compared to general vehicel theft, consequently it is not going to be given any major priority.

It would be great if a theft could be detected and quickly recovered, but history shows that this is not the case for motorised vehicles,so what chance caravans.

Prevention is always better than cure, and in this context, manufacturers should be investing in making caravans more secure.