Hi All. I was taking advantage of the good weather this weekend to service the chassis on my van, its a 94 Bailey discovery, I noticed that it does not have shock absorbers fitted, and there does not seem to be any anchor point to fit any, so, is there a conversion or adapter kit I can purchase to fit shockers to this type of chassis. Al-ko chassis
shockers
- Thread starter Barkas
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Hi, having been caravanning since 1963 and had 10 vans I have to ask the question why would you fit shock absorbers
Hi
Following a discussion on this site earlier in the year, I fitted Alko red shock absorbers to my Swift Challenger 480 (towed by a Mondeo diesel estate). The rig had always been perfectly stable and never given me any worries. However, the shockers have definitely made it even better. They appeared to have eliminated any slight sway when being passed by speeding white vans. They have also definitely smoothed the feedback to the car when towing over poor road surfaces. Definitely a worthwhile
Following a discussion on this site earlier in the year, I fitted Alko red shock absorbers to my Swift Challenger 480 (towed by a Mondeo diesel estate). The rig had always been perfectly stable and never given me any worries. However, the shockers have definitely made it even better. They appeared to have eliminated any slight sway when being passed by speeding white vans. They have also definitely smoothed the feedback to the car when towing over poor road surfaces. Definitely a worthwhile
It simply is not possible to know how good something is until you have tried it and can make a comparison. That is certainly true of fitting dampers.
Someone may have towed tens of thousands of miles without dampers and in their opinion found the quality of the tow to be satisfactory, but that does not mean improvements can't be made nor does it invalidate the fitting of dampers.
During some experimental testing work I was involved with, a caravan was driven over a test track, and the resultant motions of the caravan recorded. The results were quite surprising, but the nature of the up and down motion due to the suspension was quite slow, but it had a large amplitude. What was much more destructive was the roll due to opposite sides bouncing out of phase, and the longitudinal vibrations due to the interaction of the car and caravan hitch coupling.
The test work was not to explore the use of dampers, but the engineers at the test facility were also surprised at the intensity of the motion, and commented that dampers would reduce the number and scale of the accelerations particularly in the roll motion.
Shake anything hard or long enough and it will begin to deteriorate, so if the number and/or scale of the shaking can be reduced the product will last longer. So for that reason alone dampers may help to prevent premature damage.
Whilst fitting dampers on trailers is not a UK requirement, their use can be likened to ABS braking systems on cars. Neither are esential to the working of the vehicle but both can improve the handling.
Echoing Paul's comment it is no surprise to me that fitting dampers will improve the towing experience, as the caravan wont be dancing around quite as much, and thus it will not be tugging and pushing the car so much either.
Because they are not a requirement in the UK it is up to each driver to decide if the difference is worth the cost of having them.
Someone may have towed tens of thousands of miles without dampers and in their opinion found the quality of the tow to be satisfactory, but that does not mean improvements can't be made nor does it invalidate the fitting of dampers.
During some experimental testing work I was involved with, a caravan was driven over a test track, and the resultant motions of the caravan recorded. The results were quite surprising, but the nature of the up and down motion due to the suspension was quite slow, but it had a large amplitude. What was much more destructive was the roll due to opposite sides bouncing out of phase, and the longitudinal vibrations due to the interaction of the car and caravan hitch coupling.
The test work was not to explore the use of dampers, but the engineers at the test facility were also surprised at the intensity of the motion, and commented that dampers would reduce the number and scale of the accelerations particularly in the roll motion.
Shake anything hard or long enough and it will begin to deteriorate, so if the number and/or scale of the shaking can be reduced the product will last longer. So for that reason alone dampers may help to prevent premature damage.
Whilst fitting dampers on trailers is not a UK requirement, their use can be likened to ABS braking systems on cars. Neither are esential to the working of the vehicle but both can improve the handling.
Echoing Paul's comment it is no surprise to me that fitting dampers will improve the towing experience, as the caravan wont be dancing around quite as much, and thus it will not be tugging and pushing the car so much either.
Because they are not a requirement in the UK it is up to each driver to decide if the difference is worth the cost of having them.
Thanks for all your comments, Ive a lot of experience with shock absorbers, I was a HGV technician for 30 years, we had a fleet of 3000 trailers with tri-axle, tandem and single axle types, with many different suspension variations. The trailers fitted with shock absorbers suffered far less wear and tear not only to the running gear but to the bodywork also, in fact,Computer manufacturers insisted in their haulage contracts with our company that their products were to be transported in trailers using (shock absorbers only)as part of the main suspension system as they found that less computers were being returned as faulty through their warranty using this trailer type for bulk delivery due to the smoother ride. So I was very suprised to see no shockers fitted to my van, even tho its a 13ft lightweight, I,m sure its ride will be improved along with some stress relief to the structure of the van through the reduction of excessive roll motion which single axles suffer from badly,(ever been following a single axle caravan when its left wheel hits a pot hole or clips a kerb?) and a prolonged axle life with a set of Alko (green) shockers for
Just to put my tuppence-worth in. I fitted shockers to my Bailey Provence last year, not because we had a problem towing but because I thought it would add to the comfort - and it does. The roads near where I live are pretty poor and the the van used to bounce a bit when hacking round the bends - this has reduced quite considerably. My wife has even noticed how much smoother the ride is (and she's in the passenger seat)and there is hardly any effect from big lorrys or racing Tranists. You've only got to follow a typical outfit along the road and you can see how the van tends to ocscillate, well ours doesn't anymore.
They are everso easy to fit - the swinging-arm brackets come with the kit and fit into existing slots in the bottom of the swinging arm (where the plasic bungs are). The top mounting bolt into prepunched holes in the chassis side members above and slightly forward of the axle - have a look at the Alko website to see how they fit.
We've got a motor mover as well and the mover is clamped to the chassis so it does not use any mounting points.
They are everso easy to fit - the swinging-arm brackets come with the kit and fit into existing slots in the bottom of the swinging arm (where the plasic bungs are). The top mounting bolt into prepunched holes in the chassis side members above and slightly forward of the axle - have a look at the Alko website to see how they fit.
We've got a motor mover as well and the mover is clamped to the chassis so it does not use any mounting points.
John L states that shockers are not a requirement in the UK. They are also not a requirement in many parts of the EU, as many continental vans do not have them fitted either. They are often listed as an optional extra alongside alloy wheels etc and as ALKO are one of the major suppliers of chasses (what is the plural of chassis??) I would expect them to supply goods fit for purpose. I would be of the opinion that if there was a serious risk by not fitting them then ALKO would not take the chance of legal action. My last van that I purchased in 2004 did not have them fitted but the more upmarket model did. On asking about this it was a case of 'options' rather than necessity. However, I should also point out that my vans have the longer A Frame often present in EU models and this to my mind makes a significant, if not more so, advantage over shockers in terms of towing stability. The current van does have them fitted as I went 'upmarket' but in terms of towing, I have seen little or no difference.
I also feel that stowage of items within the van itself can make a difference, especially for a side to side motion.
I also feel that stowage of items within the van itself can make a difference, especially for a side to side motion.
Just to clarify my last point. Many vans have a fixed bed in a rear corner. The 'glory hole' underneath is often used as a storage area for items which in themselves are not heavy, but in total can add a significant load to one side. If this is the same side as the kitchen unit, then the effect is exagerated. It is also not often possible to locate, and secure a heavier item on the centre line
As it happens I had shockers fited to my S6 Wyoming two weeks ago. There is a difference , more so that the contents within the caravan look more settled. The general towing performance is in my view "smoother" for want of a better word.
It is interesting to note that manufacturers are beginning to fit shockers as standard now.
Lastly I have a Powrtouch mover and this in no way impeded the fitting of the shockers. The Al-ko chassis had blanking plates where the shockers now attach. So I don't quite understand why Icemaker couldn't fit them??
Cheers
Alan
It is interesting to note that manufacturers are beginning to fit shockers as standard now.
Lastly I have a Powrtouch mover and this in no way impeded the fitting of the shockers. The Al-ko chassis had blanking plates where the shockers now attach. So I don't quite understand why Icemaker couldn't fit them??
Cheers
Alan
Hi there
I know nothing about shock,s First.
Do the shock,s fit towards the rear of the van or towards the front. Which side of the wheel is what I am getting at. Thay cannot go straight up like on my car there not the room and the other thing is if there not fitted straight up how can thay work correctly.
I know nothing about shock,s First.
Do the shock,s fit towards the rear of the van or towards the front. Which side of the wheel is what I am getting at. Thay cannot go straight up like on my car there not the room and the other thing is if there not fitted straight up how can thay work correctly.
Hi Stephen
Have a look at Al-ko's web for full technical deatails and diagrams. That should answer your questions.
Cheers
Alan
Have a look at Al-ko's web for full technical deatails and diagrams. That should answer your questions.
Cheers
Alan
Hi,
It's not necessary for a shock absorber to be fitted in the same way as a car - the standard "coil over shock absorber" seen on many mass market cars is just a cheap and convenient way of installing these as a sub-assembly on the production line.
F1 cars have their shock absorbers mounted horizontally inside the car body - orientation doesn't matter.
If anyone thinks that shock absorbers don't make a difference, just try driving your car with defective shock absorbers.
50 years ago the first Eriba caravans were fitted with shock absorbers - because they used a steel torsion bar suspension with no damping whatsoever. More recently the AL-KO rubber suspension chassis has been used - and this is, shall we say, mildly damped. Rubber car and caravan tyres are self damping, but they also bounce too - and that's the issue with rubber suspension, it only slowly damps out oscillations.
So yes, fitting shock absorbers does make a difference - certainly the caravan is more controlled - and they do make a difference to sway and fish-tailing, or rather they help prevent the caravan suspension from "pumping itself up" at the start of a sway.
And no manufacturer will ever admit that they are a necessary fitment, that would leave them open to all sorts of legal disputes...
Robert
It's not necessary for a shock absorber to be fitted in the same way as a car - the standard "coil over shock absorber" seen on many mass market cars is just a cheap and convenient way of installing these as a sub-assembly on the production line.
F1 cars have their shock absorbers mounted horizontally inside the car body - orientation doesn't matter.
If anyone thinks that shock absorbers don't make a difference, just try driving your car with defective shock absorbers.
50 years ago the first Eriba caravans were fitted with shock absorbers - because they used a steel torsion bar suspension with no damping whatsoever. More recently the AL-KO rubber suspension chassis has been used - and this is, shall we say, mildly damped. Rubber car and caravan tyres are self damping, but they also bounce too - and that's the issue with rubber suspension, it only slowly damps out oscillations.
So yes, fitting shock absorbers does make a difference - certainly the caravan is more controlled - and they do make a difference to sway and fish-tailing, or rather they help prevent the caravan suspension from "pumping itself up" at the start of a sway.
And no manufacturer will ever admit that they are a necessary fitment, that would leave them open to all sorts of legal disputes...
Robert
Hi Icemaker
I have had 2 motor movers; a Carver and now a Powrtouch with auto engagement and neither of them have used any mounting points on the caravan other than their own which employ clamping to the chassis rail
One van was a Compass which is made by Coachman and on the BPW chassis so the answer you were given baffles me
The shockers fit to one of 3 holes in Alko chassis and the lower end either goes into a slot in the suspension arm or on the heavy duty brakes the arm is already welded on
I have had 2 motor movers; a Carver and now a Powrtouch with auto engagement and neither of them have used any mounting points on the caravan other than their own which employ clamping to the chassis rail
One van was a Compass which is made by Coachman and on the BPW chassis so the answer you were given baffles me
The shockers fit to one of 3 holes in Alko chassis and the lower end either goes into a slot in the suspension arm or on the heavy duty brakes the arm is already welded on
I don't know what to say about Coachman's reply, the more I read it it the more bemusing it becomes.
Iceman is asked why he thinks he might need them?, the same question could asked of fitting seat belts if you've never had an accident! The answer about exports simply beggars belief.
Worse, unless it's the original Carver mover which does get in the way, albeit shockers will fit, to my knowledge, all other movers don't get in the way and none use shocker mounting points
Iceman is asked why he thinks he might need them?, the same question could asked of fitting seat belts if you've never had an accident! The answer about exports simply beggars belief.
Worse, unless it's the original Carver mover which does get in the way, albeit shockers will fit, to my knowledge, all other movers don't get in the way and none use shocker mounting points
I am afraid I do not see where Gary is coming from with his comments.
Seat belts are fitted by law as they have been shown over many investigations to reduce injury or death in the event of an accident. Having defective shock absorbers will also lead to an unstable vehicle and possibly an accident. However, there is no evidence that I am aware of that because ALKO do not fit shockers as standard on certain of their products, their chassis are more prone to accidents than those that are so fitted. Better ride is something that owners have noticed after fitting, but as many road tests have been carried out at high speeds on vans both fitted, and not, then I cannot see the connection on safety. The last van I owned had been tested by the German Road Authorities and passed for safe use, even though no shockers were fitted. Sensible loading and common sense driving will outweigh any so called safety benfits from fitting shock adsorbers. Fitting a stabiliser is not a 'cure all' for a badly loaded van, and many vans will also tow happily without one.
Similarly, the initial comment about exports is correct. Many vans are modified for particular markets, so if the country in question insists on them being fitted, then any supplier will obviously do so. A similar issue is the fitting of fire retardent upholstery to vans designed for the UK market. This does not mean that vans sold outside the UK are liable to burst into flames, merely that a different set of standards applies.
Seat belts are fitted by law as they have been shown over many investigations to reduce injury or death in the event of an accident. Having defective shock absorbers will also lead to an unstable vehicle and possibly an accident. However, there is no evidence that I am aware of that because ALKO do not fit shockers as standard on certain of their products, their chassis are more prone to accidents than those that are so fitted. Better ride is something that owners have noticed after fitting, but as many road tests have been carried out at high speeds on vans both fitted, and not, then I cannot see the connection on safety. The last van I owned had been tested by the German Road Authorities and passed for safe use, even though no shockers were fitted. Sensible loading and common sense driving will outweigh any so called safety benfits from fitting shock adsorbers. Fitting a stabiliser is not a 'cure all' for a badly loaded van, and many vans will also tow happily without one.
Similarly, the initial comment about exports is correct. Many vans are modified for particular markets, so if the country in question insists on them being fitted, then any supplier will obviously do so. A similar issue is the fitting of fire retardent upholstery to vans designed for the UK market. This does not mean that vans sold outside the UK are liable to burst into flames, merely that a different set of standards applies.
I have a German caravan, a Burstner. not only does it have the longer A frame,but it comes as standard with shocks absorber.
So how would I describe the difference between having shocks and not having them? Well my car has disc brakes all round, and whilst I am sure drum breaks would indeed stop my car,disc brakes are just so much better.
So how would I describe the difference between having shocks and not having them? Well my car has disc brakes all round, and whilst I am sure drum breaks would indeed stop my car,disc brakes are just so much better.
hello john (g) my coachman vip runs on the alko chassis as do all coachman vans these days so it was with this chassis that i made my enquiry. regarding the motormover unfortunately the dealer i bought my van from cambells preston only supplied the reich mover which is so big it gets in the way of fitting shock absorbers, if i had my way i would change the mover to a powertouch which i have had in the past as the reich is very very poor in comparison but i will have to wait untill we change the van again. i only looked at fitting shocks due to comments on this forum but to be absolutely honest ive never ever had any cause for concern with the coachman so i think i was probably wasting my money anyway, youve been on here a long time like i have and i think we both know that there is no substitute for carefull and correct loading and a good towcar that wont allow the van to bounce it all over the place.
Who mentioned safety?
A seat belt is of no use whatsoever unless you actually have an accident, the same can be said of shockers, you don't know what ultimate use they might be until the right set of circumstances arises?
The simple fact is they do improve handling, it took me a long time to agree with that myself but it's only the amount of improvement that will vary.
This depends on several factors not least I believe, the axles max load compared with actual load, it's this difference the shockers will keep under control in everyday use and shows up the most in improvement to handling.
Where we both agree is 'A' frame length, this is certainly important to stability but it seems British manufactures think this is as unnecessary as shockers?!
A seat belt is of no use whatsoever unless you actually have an accident, the same can be said of shockers, you don't know what ultimate use they might be until the right set of circumstances arises?
The simple fact is they do improve handling, it took me a long time to agree with that myself but it's only the amount of improvement that will vary.
This depends on several factors not least I believe, the axles max load compared with actual load, it's this difference the shockers will keep under control in everyday use and shows up the most in improvement to handling.
Where we both agree is 'A' frame length, this is certainly important to stability but it seems British manufactures think this is as unnecessary as shockers?!
with regards longer A frames.I would like somebody to explain it in more depth. please.
What I mean is I have a long A frame,as you compare visible A frame from the end of the vans body.
But what crosses my mind is surely the pivotal point the distance from the vans wheels to the hook up point is a major factor?
So a van could be as long or longer measured from these points without having a longer A frame. [does that make sense?]but would still have the added stability?
Or have I got it totally wrong......
What I mean is I have a long A frame,as you compare visible A frame from the end of the vans body.
But what crosses my mind is surely the pivotal point the distance from the vans wheels to the hook up point is a major factor?
So a van could be as long or longer measured from these points without having a longer A frame. [does that make sense?]but would still have the added stability?
Or have I got it totally wrong......
ive had the same reservations regarding this theory of longer a frames being better for stability, i just cant see the where the logic is coming from surely the distance from the axle to the hitch is what matters not the distance from the front of the body to the hitch. are people really saying that if two caravans are built with the same chassis but one has a longer a frame than the other but the distance from the axle to the hitch is the same then the one with the longer a frame is more stable ?.
if thats the case why if i get a length of string and attach a conker to the end and swing it lightly the conker will swing from side to side for quite some distance and will continue to swing for a considerable time, where as if i get a piece of dowel exactely the same weight as the conker but much longer so as it allmost reaches the top of the string and start to swing this the same way i did the conker not only will it swing much less but when i stop swinging the dowel will slow immediately and stop very soon after.
i really cant see how a longer hitch can help if it means the weight is further from the pivot point, i think its just another of those things that some ones picked up on and thinks is true without really researching it.
if thats the case why if i get a length of string and attach a conker to the end and swing it lightly the conker will swing from side to side for quite some distance and will continue to swing for a considerable time, where as if i get a piece of dowel exactely the same weight as the conker but much longer so as it allmost reaches the top of the string and start to swing this the same way i did the conker not only will it swing much less but when i stop swinging the dowel will slow immediately and stop very soon after.
i really cant see how a longer hitch can help if it means the weight is further from the pivot point, i think its just another of those things that some ones picked up on and thinks is true without really researching it.
I am not a technical expert on chassis design but the brochure for my van clearly states that the use of a longer A frame (500mm)raises the critical speed for safety. I also personally feel that the greater distance allows air flow to be less turbulent in the area just behind the tow vehicle as there is room for it to stabilise.
On a practical point of view it makes reversing easier if jacknifing is a possibility and less chance of damaging something. If you have a 4x4 with a side door then the greater space is an advantage in opening it. It also allows the nose weight to be more easily controlled.
Evidently some vans so fitted can have a bike rack attached to the A frame, but I have not gone that far.
On a practical point of view it makes reversing easier if jacknifing is a possibility and less chance of damaging something. If you have a 4x4 with a side door then the greater space is an advantage in opening it. It also allows the nose weight to be more easily controlled.
Evidently some vans so fitted can have a bike rack attached to the A frame, but I have not gone that far.
'A' frame length, horizontally, the chassis is a simple lever, first then the extra length forward of the body reduces the required nose weight.
Beyond that apparently simple advantage, in the vertical the caravan body sides present a sail to the wind, with the wheels in the middle the body will want to spin equally with no advantage fore or aft of the wheels!.
If the wheels are at the back the winds effects would be reduced to the minimum, that being impossible it still makes sense to keep the wheels as far back as possible. This gives the percentage of body in front of the wheels a greater advantage and therefore better control to that aft of.
That in itself will greatly improve stability.
The next concern is weight fore and aft, the more percentage weight in front of the axle controls better that aft of it.
Back to the longer A frame and this decreasing the nose weight, this then allows best advantage to be taken of weight ratios within the body of the van
Beyond that apparently simple advantage, in the vertical the caravan body sides present a sail to the wind, with the wheels in the middle the body will want to spin equally with no advantage fore or aft of the wheels!.
If the wheels are at the back the winds effects would be reduced to the minimum, that being impossible it still makes sense to keep the wheels as far back as possible. This gives the percentage of body in front of the wheels a greater advantage and therefore better control to that aft of.
That in itself will greatly improve stability.
The next concern is weight fore and aft, the more percentage weight in front of the axle controls better that aft of it.
Back to the longer A frame and this decreasing the nose weight, this then allows best advantage to be taken of weight ratios within the body of the van
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