Smart meters again

[Jcloughie]

As I said the smart shows average of about £7 a day but on the statement it is around £10. As I know now the Daily charge etc has to be added..

The smart meter actually adds in the daily charge. Or it does with Octopus, and as Roger said, about 75p. The statement should accurately reflect the meter. If not, an investigation is in order.

John

 

[Sam Vimes]

My on line account with SP shows my Smart Meter Installation as November 2022 - I'm still waiting while neighbours with other suppliers seem to get there's with no problem. I'm also still waiting for the compensation for the missed appointment.

Supposedly SP will be in our area in March but given that they just sub contract the job out and others in our community are getting there's the cycnic in me says that SP want to keep charging me a higher direct debit that I can't seem to reduce, rather than bill me for the true usuage.

Dilema is that currently the SP unit price is marginally cheaper than some others. Do I switch or fight it out with SP over the Smart Meter?

 

[Gagakev]

The daily charge isn't that much - with Octopus it's about £22 per month if you have both electric and gas - so about 75p a day.

Someone having a laugh here????
They charge you a daily charge AND you pay for the electric to run it!!!
I'm with Octopus also but they aint coming in here to fit one of those machines in my abode.

 

[Sam Vimes]

You don't pay to run the smart meter but the In Home Display does cost to run. You don't need to have it on though.

The cost of running the IHD I would guess is miniscule.

 

[Hutch]

You can now (or shortly) download the app, gives info on usage in kw/h. will be more useful when history is developed.

John

I can do that on the meter, I don't need another app, to make me paranoid about my power usage. I will take the monthly hit.

 

[Jcloughie]

Someone having a laugh here????
They charge you a daily charge AND you pay for the electric to run it!!!
I'm with Octopus also but they aint coming in here to fit one of those machines in my abode.

But you still pay the daily charge! Check your statements.


John

 

[RogerL]

Someone having a laugh here????
They charge you a daily charge AND you pay for the electric to run it!!!
I'm with Octopus also but they aint coming in here to fit one of those machines in my abode.

The electric and gas cost the same whether you have a smart meter or not.

I read my meters monthly and send the figures to Octopus, even though they don't need them - I use a spreadsheet to track my monthly costs against my tariff rates - Octopus's bills match my spreadsheet - but I don't bother checking the rates/costs on the smart meter display.

 

[Tobes]

The electric and gas cost the same whether you have a smart meter or not.

I read my meters monthly and send the figures to Octopus, even though they don't need them - I use a spreadsheet to track my monthly costs against my tariff rates - Octopus's bills match my spreadsheet - but I don't bother checking the rates/costs on the smart meter display.

The electricity and gas _can_ cost the same with a smart meter, or can cost a LOT less. Smart meters give access to tariffs that are not possible (and so not available) with regular meters. That’s how they can save you money. Potentially a lot…

 

[Hutch]

The electricity and gas _can_ cost the same with a smart meter, or can cost a LOT less. Smart meters give access to tariffs that are not possible (and so not available) with regular meters. That’s how they can save you money. Potentially a lot…

That what I found out today when I got switched from Bulb to Octopus. We shall see..
No problems with the meters, but them Folk Down, South West be Smugglers and trust no one.

 

[Dustydog]

The electricity and gas _can_ cost the same with a smart meter, or can cost a LOT less. Smart meters give access to tariffs that are not possible (and so not available) with regular meters. That’s how they can save you money. Potentially a lot…

We signed up to a fixed price contract on gas and electricity with BGas over a year ago, cost more than the cheapest but guaranteed the rate which today is very cheap. Expires later this year. No smart meter. Would the smart meter have chosen our current tariff?

 

[Jcloughie]

We signed up to a fixed price contract on gas and electricity with BGas over a year ago, cost more than the cheapest but guaranteed the rate which today is very cheap. Expires later this year. No smart meter. Would the smart meter have chosen our current tariff?

Yes, it would. My son has a smart meter and is on a low fixed tariff until September. His smart meter just applies whatever tariff he is on.

One of the beauties or fears of smart meters is that the tariff can be changed easily. While on a contracted rate that is what is applied. But in the future, they can change the number of times in the day, to try to persuade users to use less during peak times.

John

 

[RogerL]

The electricity and gas _can_ cost the same with a smart meter, or can cost a LOT less. Smart meters give access to tariffs that are not possible (and so not available) with regular meters. That’s how they can save you money. Potentially a lot…

At present all tariffs seem to have the same Ofgem cap and government subsidy, apart from long-standing fixed price tariffs which are almost at an end.

 

[Sam Vimes]

A suprise today. We received the Alternative Fuel Payment... £200. This is because we cannot heat with mains gas and have to use an alternate source.

I've will go towards our next delivery of logs.

 

[Tobes]

At present all tariffs seem to have the same Ofgem cap and government subsidy, apart from long-standing fixed price tariffs which are almost at an end.

Not all tariffs are bound by the cap. It’s possible to choose one that is not. But also, not all tariffs charge up to the cap. My current tariff (ending on 1st April) is for 30.23p in the day and 7.5p from 00:30 to 04:30 at night.
That tariff is only available with a smart meter. Octopus also have a smart tariff targeted for heat pump owners “cosy Octopus” .

Smart meters offer the possibility of time of day pricing that varies as the cost of generation varies, allowing users to both reduce bills and reduce carbon footprint (cheap electricity is greener, expensive is dirtier) through the signal of 30 minute pricing.

 

[Buckman]

We signed up to a fixed price contract on gas and electricity with BGas over a year ago, cost more than the cheapest but guaranteed the rate which today is very cheap. Expires later this year. No smart meter. Would the smart meter have chosen our current tariff?

No. No Smart meter can or would chose your tarriff, however once you have made a decision and selected your chosen tariff the Smart meter should adjust to that tariff.

 

[Beachball]

I am a £280 in credit with a £167 DD, but I suspect this will need to be £210 shortly.

John

At our last check we were £250 in credit with a £167 DD but i think we will be paying £250 soon

 

[RogerL]

At our last check we were £250 in credit with a £167 DD but i think we will be paying £250 soon

We're £164 in debit - which is the way it should be at this time of year so that by the end of September, the anniversary of transferring the account, it'll be zero approximately.

All this talk that you "should" be in credit is surely nonsense - over a 12 month period we all need to pay for the energy used, no more and no less, so whether you're in credit or debit depends when that 12 month period starts - mine is from the anniversary of transfering to Octopus. When switching was available, I usually switched at the end of September.

 

[Beachball]

We're £164 in debit - which is the way it should be at this time of year so that by the end of September, the anniversary of transferring the account, it'll be zero approximately.

All this talk that you "should" be in credit is surely nonsense - over a 12 month period we all need to pay for the energy used, no more and no less, so whether you're in credit or debit depends when that 12 month period starts - mine is from the anniversary of transfering to Octopus. When switching was available, I usually switched at the end of September.

When we went with Octopus our 12 month period start - mine is the anniversary of transferring to Octopus We switched at the end of January and have receive a email saying we are in credit of £250 and remember we are on holiday mode as well

 

[Tobes]

Octopus have just launched another new smart tariff, Flux, aimed at those with solar and battery storage. The idea is you can top up your batteries when cheap 2am to 5am to get you to sun up and/or or run heavy loads (dishwasher, washing machine), let you batteries fill up in the day while the sun shines, then get paid to export energy back to the grid when you have excess, and get paid handsomely if you export during the peak busy hours at 4pm to 7pm. Another tariff that offers a way to save if you have the right equipment AND a smart meter.

 

[Buckman]

Just looking at the headline profit a business makes does not tell you anything useful or whether its unreasonable or not. You have to look at a wider range of data to be able to give a fairer assessment.

It's essential for every commercial organisation to make a profit, otherwise they will ultimately fail, but whilst if a sole trader posted a £10M pound profit it might seem suspicious, if British gas only posted £10M profit that also would look suspicious for being too low!.

You need to look at turnover and other factors to be able to make a more balanced conclusion rather than doing what the media does which is to sensationalise the ordinary. Generally in simplified terms the companies try to set an operating process that generates income at a percentage margin over costs. Break even isn't an option as every plan needs to consider inflationary pressures, so profits need to be greater than the rate of inflation, and to consider extraordinary factors such as in the case of energy ther forward cost projections needed to be able to purchase the raw materials over the next year.

With those perfectly legitimate factors taken into account, the energy companies will have had bigger turnover figures which in turn will generate bigger potential profits, but as a proportion of turnover the rate of profit may be no bigger than in previous years.

To survive, and operate efficiently and pay share holders a dividend a business needs to make a profit, but overcharging to make huge profits using external factors as an excuse is just not on!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ive-news-treasury-inflation-centrica-british/

Currently we are with BGAS, but have applied to transfer to Octopus even though it will cost us an extra £70 annually. Going by reports on here, our own persoanl experience and a report in Which consumer magazine, we decided it would be preferable to move on.

 

[Tobes]

To survive, and operate efficiently and pay share holders a dividend a business needs to make a profit, but overcharging to make huge profits using external factors as an excuse is just not on!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ive-news-treasury-inflation-centrica-british/

Currently we are with BGAS, but have applied to transfer to Octopus even though it will cost us an extra £70 annually. Going by reports on here, our own persoanl experience and a report in Which consumer magazine, we decided it would be preferable to move on.

The frustration is I think caused by the different elements of a company having different profit and losses, that are hidden by their conglomerate name. This is important for where an energy "supplier" (a company that extracts gas or oil from the ground) is the same as the energy retailer (a company who buys wholesale gas and electricity and sells to consumers). Even worse if they are also the electricity generator (a company who generates electricity from some source means).

For suppliers, high international gas and oil prices create wider profit margins. The cost to extract is more or less fixed (in the short term) so short term hikes in the wholesale market cost driven by availability increases profit.

For generators, their sale price is linked to (but not 100% governed) by the short term cost of the last 1kWh generated. When electrical demand is high, and the cost of generation is linked to a high gas price, electricity costs a lot, but companies like EDF (running UK nuclear) again have a long term fixed cost, so margins go up. The same is true for wind generation, if their generation has not been pre-sold for a fixed price.

For retailers, they buy and sell at market rate with some long term hedging built in. If the wholesale market is high, and they have a fixed retail price (cap) then they sell at a loss and go bust. If they have sufficient long term hedge, they can take the short term pain (with deep pockets) and re-adjust as the cap is raised. For Octopus - they own a tiny amount of wind generation, but buy lots of wind on long term low contracts. They stayed alive because they source low cost energy.

It's the big boys (EDF, BP, Shell, British Gas etc) that seem to reap the rewards, not from the consumer directly, but via the wholesale margin...

 

[otherclive]

The frustration is I think caused by the different elements of a company having different profit and losses, that are hidden by their conglomerate name. This is important for where an energy "supplier" (a company that extracts gas or oil from the ground) is the same as the energy retailer (a company who buys wholesale gas and electricity and sells to consumers). Even worse if they are also the electricity generator (a company who generates electricity from some source means).

For suppliers, high international gas and oil prices create wider profit margins. The cost to extract is more or less fixed (in the short term) so short term hikes in the wholesale market cost driven by availability increases profit.

For generators, their sale price is linked to (but not 100% governed) by the short term cost of the last 1kWh generated. When electrical demand is high, and the cost of generation is linked to a high gas price, electricity costs a lot, but companies like EDF (running UK nuclear) again have a long term fixed cost, so margins go up. The same is true for wind generation, if their generation has not been pre-sold for a fixed price.

For retailers, they buy and sell at market rate with some long term hedging built in. If the wholesale market is high, and they have a fixed retail price (cap) then they sell at a loss and go bust. If they have sufficient long term hedge, they can take the short term pain (with deep pockets) and re-adjust as the cap is raised. For Octopus - they own a tiny amount of wind generation, but buy lots of wind on long term low contracts. They stayed alive because they source low cost energy.

It's the big boys (EDF, BP, Shell, British Gas etc) that seem to reap the rewards, not from the consumer directly, but via the wholesale margin...

Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. Centrica a la British Gas are often the first to take the criticism fir gas price rises or seemingly excess profits. Whereas in actual fact Centrica is active internationally. This recent report of Centrica profits actually stated that the British Gas division profits were down compared to the previous year.

“Centrica said it made operating profits of £72million at its British Gas retail division, British Gas Energy, but this was down 39% on the year before.”

 

[Buckman]

The frustration is I think caused by the different elements of a company having different profit and losses, that are hidden by their conglomerate name. This is important for where an energy "supplier" (a company that extracts gas or oil from the ground) is the same as the energy retailer (a company who buys wholesale gas and electricity and sells to consumers). Even worse if they are also the electricity generator (a company who generates electricity from some source means).

For suppliers, high international gas and oil prices create wider profit margins. The cost to extract is more or less fixed (in the short term) so short term hikes in the wholesale market cost driven by availability increases profit.

For generators, their sale price is linked to (but not 100% governed) by the short term cost of the last 1kWh generated. When electrical demand is high, and the cost of generation is linked to a high gas price, electricity costs a lot, but companies like EDF (running UK nuclear) again have a long term fixed cost, so margins go up. The same is true for wind generation, if their generation has not been pre-sold for a fixed price.

For retailers, they buy and sell at market rate with some long term hedging built in. If the wholesale market is high, and they have a fixed retail price (cap) then they sell at a loss and go bust. If they have sufficient long term hedge, they can take the short term pain (with deep pockets) and re-adjust as the cap is raised. For Octopus - they own a tiny amount of wind generation, but buy lots of wind on long term low contracts. They stayed alive because they source low cost energy.

It's the big boys (EDF, BP, Shell, British Gas etc) that seem to reap the rewards, not from the consumer directly, but via the wholesale margin...

Many people get confused between distribution companies and suppliers although the supplier may have the same name as the distribution company.

The distribution companies allocate a fixed amount of power to a central pool and the supplier which could have the same name as the distribution company buys from that central pool through a bidding process which could push the price up or down.

However overall even if the profits are coming from elsewhere within a company like Centrica, why the huge jump in profits since the war in the Ukraine started or are distribution companies using that as an excuse to push up prices?

 

[Tobes]

Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. Centrica a la British Gas are often the first to take the criticism fir gas price rises or seemingly excess profits. Whereas in actual fact Centrica is active internationally. This recent report of Centrica profits actually stated that the British Gas division profits were down compared to the previous year.

“Centrica said it made operating profits of £72million at its British Gas retail division, British Gas Energy, but this was down 39% on the year before.”

Thanks for the correction / reminder. Centrica is of course the conglomerate name for the company that extracts gas on a global scale (amongst other things) and British gas is the UK retail arm that sells to consumers and businesses. I am stunned that they still made £72m on retail - unless BGr also has some generation? Now I am guessing...

 

[RogerL]

The frustration is I think caused by the different elements of a company having different profit and losses, that are hidden by their conglomerate name. This is important for where an energy "supplier" (a company that extracts gas or oil from the ground) is the same as the energy retailer (a company who buys wholesale gas and electricity and sells to consumers). Even worse if they are also the electricity generator (a company who generates electricity from some source means).

For suppliers, high international gas and oil prices create wider profit margins. The cost to extract is more or less fixed (in the short term) so short term hikes in the wholesale market cost driven by availability increases profit.

For generators, their sale price is linked to (but not 100% governed) by the short term cost of the last 1kWh generated. When electrical demand is high, and the cost of generation is linked to a high gas price, electricity costs a lot, but companies like EDF (running UK nuclear) again have a long term fixed cost, so margins go up. The same is true for wind generation, if their generation has not been pre-sold for a fixed price.

For retailers, they buy and sell at market rate with some long term hedging built in. If the wholesale market is high, and they have a fixed retail price (cap) then they sell at a loss and go bust. If they have sufficient long term hedge, they can take the short term pain (with deep pockets) and re-adjust as the cap is raised. For Octopus - they own a tiny amount of wind generation, but buy lots of wind on long term low contracts. They stayed alive because they source low cost energy.

It's the big boys (EDF, BP, Shell, British Gas etc) that seem to reap the rewards, not from the consumer directly, but via the wholesale margin...

It doesn't help ordinary customers that some energy retailers are just that, a retailer, who are all having a hard time with many going bust while others include an energy producer of gas or electricity who are making big profits from the increase in energy prices but also make big losses when the prices go the other way and spend their profits on investment in future energy supplies.

I don't know how (I'd be Prime Minister if I did) but we need to move away from the business model where all forms of energy are priced at the same level as the most expensive - each form of energy should be priced based on actual costs.