.....silence is golden
anyway I am busy caravaning in Brittany!
Not seen any snakes over here!
Not seen any snakes over here!
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Snaking
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Now you have got me worried . Just returned from Devon towing my recently purchase Bailey Pageant Bordeaux ( with ATC )...which has a fixed bed sinkunit,radio and microwave ...all on the one side of the van. I was worried about the brick look of the van ,compared to vans I have owned in the past with boat shaped roofs and have to admit that it towed smoothly and cruised on the M5 amongst all the trucks at a steady 65mph,with no incidents. Mabee the fact that I ignored my wifes protestations and took as much as I possibly could out of the van and spread it throughout the car. Your reccommendations of 60mph will certainly now be followed by me because when it all boils down to it, in an hour I will be just 5 miles further down the road....not worth the risks.
barrychas said:
It's not a recommendation, it's the law.
Surfer said:
I must admit I've never seen that surfer.
Parksy
Moderator
barrychas said:
This has got to be a wind-up right?
If the statement about cruising 'on the M5 amongst all the trucks at a steady 65mph' is genuine then it beggars belief that someone would decide to tow on what can be, for caravanners, a dangerous road for the unwary because of long downhill stretches with crosswinds, rutted carriageways and heavy lorry and coach traffic without seeming to be aware of the national speed limit for caravans on dual carriageways.
I'm so glad that Barrychas has now decided to follow the 'recommendation' of 60mph because he might stand a marginally lesser chance of finding his towing vehicle stuck on the central crash barrier facing the wrong way with his caravan smashed to matchwood and his families belongings scattered all over the motorway like those of so many others who never bother to find out even the most basic information before towing a caravan.
It's no coincidence that 'Sally Traffic' from Radio 2 and similar traffic reporters constantly mention roads and motorways being blocked by overturned caravans and during the peak holiday season the M5 figures predominantly in these reports.
Excessive speed alone probably doesn't cause all of these incidents but it's certainly a major contributory factor in some of them.
The 60mph 'recommendation' is in fact the legal national speed limit for towing vehicles on dual carriageways including motorways unless signs or police officers indicate otherwise, it is not a target but a limit as is the 50mph national speed limit for towing vehicles on single carriageway roads where other limits do not apply.
If you know the limits and habitually ignore them all it takes are witnesses or police traffic investigators to prove that excessive speed above the speed limit contributed to an incident which resulted in the destruction of a caravan, towcar or both and a large bill could be waiting if a succesful prosecution took place which the insurers probably wouldn't settle.
I don't intentionally break any speed limit, nor do I condone anyone who does, but it's surely somewhat pompous for caravanners to criticise other caravanners for exceeding the speed limit - particularly when police guidelines allow 10% +1mph over the limit before taking any action for any class of vehicle.
Given that the metric equivalent of 60mph is 62 (100kph) and that some other countries allow towing even faster, there's nothing magical about our 60mph limit, other than the fact that it's the law.
Given that the metric equivalent of 60mph is 62 (100kph) and that some other countries allow towing even faster, there's nothing magical about our 60mph limit, other than the fact that it's the law.
Parksy
Moderator
I don't see what's pompous about highlighting speed limits applicable to towing vehicles on a caravan forum strongly associated with the leading UK caravan magazine and owned by the company who publish it, Roger.
A lot of new caravanners and those considering taking up caravanning for the first time read both the magazine and browse this forum to glean information about the hobby.
It would be very irresponsible of us to allow a statement to pass unchallenged in which the driver of a vehicle towing a caravan along a motorway, on which many caravan related incidents take place which result in the closure of carriageways and possible financial loss and injury, implied that he broke the speed limit for a considerable distance according to his forum comment.
As a responsible and respected caravan forum we couldn't condone or be seen to encourage speeding no matter what the 'police guidelines' are supposed to be and the national speed limit for towing vehicles on motorways and dual carriageways here in the UK is 60mph unless otherwise indicated by signs giving a lower limit.
A lot of new caravanners and those considering taking up caravanning for the first time read both the magazine and browse this forum to glean information about the hobby.
It would be very irresponsible of us to allow a statement to pass unchallenged in which the driver of a vehicle towing a caravan along a motorway, on which many caravan related incidents take place which result in the closure of carriageways and possible financial loss and injury, implied that he broke the speed limit for a considerable distance according to his forum comment.
As a responsible and respected caravan forum we couldn't condone or be seen to encourage speeding no matter what the 'police guidelines' are supposed to be and the national speed limit for towing vehicles on motorways and dual carriageways here in the UK is 60mph unless otherwise indicated by signs giving a lower limit.
It is a fallacy to believe the law allows 10% +1mph over the limit before taking any action for any class of vehicle. The law prescribes a limit, which can only be changed by act of parliament. Whilst some polices forces may adopt the 10% suggestion but they are not duty bound to it and may not adopt it in all cases.
The Association of Chief Police Officers (APCO) have taken it upon them selves to make certain recommendations about how their members may approach the issue of prosecuting speeding. The perceived tolerance is largely the result of the failure rate of some prosecutions, and reluctance of of the Crown Prosecution Service to pursue cases in this 10% area where there may be concerns about the accuracy of the measurement system or there is significant doubt about the ability of the accused to have known they were actually exceeding the limit.
ACPO are a trade organisation, and they do not make the law.
It is perfectly possible for charges to be brought for any infringement above the limit.
The Association of Chief Police Officers (APCO) have taken it upon them selves to make certain recommendations about how their members may approach the issue of prosecuting speeding. The perceived tolerance is largely the result of the failure rate of some prosecutions, and reluctance of of the Crown Prosecution Service to pursue cases in this 10% area where there may be concerns about the accuracy of the measurement system or there is significant doubt about the ability of the accused to have known they were actually exceeding the limit.
ACPO are a trade organisation, and they do not make the law.
It is perfectly possible for charges to be brought for any infringement above the limit.
It's possible - but they don't.Prof John L said:
65mph when the speed limit is 60mph is like 76mph in a 70 for solo cars - are you going to criticise 99% of respondents to a car magazine, which Haymarket also publish, because that's about how many break that speed limit.
I do notice that far more caravanners observe the 60mph towing than solo cars observe the 70mph limit - be grateful for that and don't set yourself up as police, judge and jury.
Parksy
Moderator
The fact of the matter Roger is that as a forum we can't be seen to condone law breaking and as one of the people responsible for ensuring that forum content is suitable for inclusion on the message boards I see it as part of my remit to challenge the views of anyone who writes comments for inclusion on this forum which show that they may have broken the law whilst towing a caravan.RogerL said:
I'm not in any way responsible for what goes on in car magazines or car related internet forums whether they are Haymarket owned or not and I'm certainly not grateful when caravanners stick to the prescribed speed limit, I would expect nothing less and I have every right to say as much.
Hello RogerL
Your first two words are correct. Your next three words are not necessarily true, because they can but for various reasons may not .
And yes I do criticise anyone who acts as though the law does not apply to them. And yes those that speed are law breakers. Just because a majority decide to break a law does not make the law wrong or an individuals actions any less serious.
I am happier the majority of caravanner's do seem to obey the law, Though whilst travelling on the A38 this week there were several towers (not all caravans) who were well over 60mph and two who were over 70 as measured with a GPS speed reading.
I feel justified in criticising law breakers, that is not being police, judge and jury as I cannot apply any sanction on them.
May I reflect your comment on you, if you feel I am unfair in criticising where there is wrong doing, then what gives you the right to criticise me when I point it out and have done nothing wrong?
Your first two words are correct. Your next three words are not necessarily true, because they can but for various reasons may not .
And yes I do criticise anyone who acts as though the law does not apply to them. And yes those that speed are law breakers. Just because a majority decide to break a law does not make the law wrong or an individuals actions any less serious.
I am happier the majority of caravanner's do seem to obey the law, Though whilst travelling on the A38 this week there were several towers (not all caravans) who were well over 60mph and two who were over 70 as measured with a GPS speed reading.
I feel justified in criticising law breakers, that is not being police, judge and jury as I cannot apply any sanction on them.
May I reflect your comment on you, if you feel I am unfair in criticising where there is wrong doing, then what gives you the right to criticise me when I point it out and have done nothing wrong?
Just because one or two countries have a speed limit higher than 100km/h, that doesn't mean to say that it's safe to tow that fast. It only says that it's legal to do so. A number of insurance companies over here point out that insurance coverage is lost if it can be proved that one was going more that 100km/h immediately prior to an accident, even though it may have been within the law. And caravan manufacturers also cover themselves by excluding any liability for speeds over 100km/h.RogerL said:
barrychas said:
In fairness this poster did state the above. I cannot understand why anyone wishes to go any faster than 60 when towing on motorways. It is plenty fast enough. Those who feel the need to go faster must be highly stressed and need a chill pill
Lord Braykewynde said:I cannot understand why anyone wishes to go any faster than 60 when towing on motorways. It is plenty fast enough. Those who feel the need to go faster must be highly stressed and need a chill pill
Have to agree LB.
on motorways etc I tend to pick an HGV vehicle and stay behind it at a safe distance, this way as they are regulated to 56mph (and I dont have cruise control) I dont creep over the speed limit. ok so occasionally I do overtake on an incline, but then just do the same again.
Whats the hurry? your on holiday!!
Gagakev said:Lord Braykewynde said:I cannot understand why anyone wishes to go any faster than 60 when towing on motorways. It is plenty fast enough. Those who feel the need to go faster must be highly stressed and need a chill pill
Have to agree LB.
on motorways etc I tend to pick an HGV vehicle and stay behind it at a safe distance, this way as they are regulated to 56mph (and I dont have cruise control) I dont creep over the speed limit. ok so occasionally I do overtake on an incline, but then just do the same again.
Whats the hurry? your on holiday!!
My cruise is set at the same speed as the hgv's, a week last Friday we heading East on the M62 nearing to ferry bridge services ( the old A1 ) when a Nissan Navara thunderd past with a twin axle swinging about a bit, he backed off a bit & moved back into the nearside lane about half a mile in front of the hgv in front of me, & the weather was heavy rain, further on just a mile or so before the junction for the M18, I noticed in my r/h towing mirror a big swirl of rain approaching at high speed, turned out to be a old merc with a caravan on the back in the fast / third lane , i would not like to estimate his speed as he passed us, all i was worried about was if it was going to let go, please get further away from me.........
My wife came out with a very good choice of unrepeatable words when she saw it go past.......
I think there are a number of factors to consider when talking about breaking the speed limits with or without a van on the back.
1) the type of vehicle: Publicity as programmed us to believe that 4x4’s are safer therefore the risks are less. Although not a 4x4 mine as steel side bars, 8 airbags, collapsible steering wheel etc etc all strengthening to the belief. Do all VW Golf owners drive faster because the advert tells them how quick they are)
2) In this country we are responsible for the other driver over responsible for our actions, where in France and Spain you are responsible for your own actions
3) The nanny state looks after you therefore I have no responsibility
4) The road itself; we tend to have wider A and B roads (not particularly better quality)
5) Your own personal limits: As I have said previously you get to know what feels correct
6) Complacency
7) Police priorities
PS. The 10% over to allow for mechanical error was removed from statute a number of years ago, You can be done for 1 mph above the limit but! what is the accuracy of the speed cameras? As the camera been calibrated in the last month? Was it an experienced person using it etc. Therefore we are back to allowing some overs but I would suggest from what I have read over the years that 3 mph is the max, that’s if your speedo is correctly calibrated, mine reads 1.5 mph too high at 70mph compared to a sat nav, so when mine says 70 I’m actually doing 68.5, but is the sat nav correctly calibrated? etc etc.
My licence is clean so if you follow someone continually doing 62mph down the M5, it’s me!
Man’s got to know the limitations
1) the type of vehicle: Publicity as programmed us to believe that 4x4’s are safer therefore the risks are less. Although not a 4x4 mine as steel side bars, 8 airbags, collapsible steering wheel etc etc all strengthening to the belief. Do all VW Golf owners drive faster because the advert tells them how quick they are)
2) In this country we are responsible for the other driver over responsible for our actions, where in France and Spain you are responsible for your own actions
3) The nanny state looks after you therefore I have no responsibility
4) The road itself; we tend to have wider A and B roads (not particularly better quality)
5) Your own personal limits: As I have said previously you get to know what feels correct
6) Complacency
7) Police priorities
PS. The 10% over to allow for mechanical error was removed from statute a number of years ago, You can be done for 1 mph above the limit but! what is the accuracy of the speed cameras? As the camera been calibrated in the last month? Was it an experienced person using it etc. Therefore we are back to allowing some overs but I would suggest from what I have read over the years that 3 mph is the max, that’s if your speedo is correctly calibrated, mine reads 1.5 mph too high at 70mph compared to a sat nav, so when mine says 70 I’m actually doing 68.5, but is the sat nav correctly calibrated? etc etc.
My licence is clean so if you follow someone continually doing 62mph down the M5, it’s me!
Man’s got to know the limitations
Ruddy heck ...what a can of worms this subject opens.Yep I made a mistake to admit that at certain limited times I broke the speed limit when occassionally passing whole fleets of trucks ..but if you read my post I was very concerned to ensure that my van was light as possisble and all extra items stowed in my 2.2 Vectra. Frustration can set in when on a long journey and occasionally you do pull out from the fumes of the trucks to get past and the needle does go up to 65 ( callibrated to 63 actual speed ..checked against local speed monitors ) but anybody in their right mind would not be aware of the implications of what you are doing and then slow down to a comfortable safe tow speed. Also on the same journey breaks were taken every 2 hours and no attempt was made to match the speed of some individuals towing at 70+ ...now that is just plain stupid.
Parksy
Moderator
Point taken Barrychas.
To move the discussion along, notwithstanding my earlier comments concerning the breaking of speed limits, I'm not convinced that speed is the major factor where snaking is concerned.
Caravans being towed at higher speeds along Continental motorways don't suddenly start to snake and overturn.
I've met and spoken to two unfortunate caravanners who were involved in UK motorway incidents arising from snaking which led to the loss of caravans in both cases, and both of them were travelling well within the motorway speed limit.
The consensus amongst sympathetic rally goers who listened to the first victim who had only bought his twin axle Lunar caravan on the previous weekend was that his noseweight was far too low and the carriageway may have been rutted, he was towing with a LR Discovery which explodes the myth about the greater stability of a 4x4.
He was travelling northbound on the M5 near to Jn5 at around 50mph and he couldn't begin to explain or understand what had caused the problem.
The second victim that I spoke to had been caught out by the wind turbulence of passing coaches and lorries but during the conversation it began to emerge that poor loading may have been a contributory factor in the incident.
To move the discussion along, notwithstanding my earlier comments concerning the breaking of speed limits, I'm not convinced that speed is the major factor where snaking is concerned.
Caravans being towed at higher speeds along Continental motorways don't suddenly start to snake and overturn.
I've met and spoken to two unfortunate caravanners who were involved in UK motorway incidents arising from snaking which led to the loss of caravans in both cases, and both of them were travelling well within the motorway speed limit.
The consensus amongst sympathetic rally goers who listened to the first victim who had only bought his twin axle Lunar caravan on the previous weekend was that his noseweight was far too low and the carriageway may have been rutted, he was towing with a LR Discovery which explodes the myth about the greater stability of a 4x4.
He was travelling northbound on the M5 near to Jn5 at around 50mph and he couldn't begin to explain or understand what had caused the problem.
The second victim that I spoke to had been caught out by the wind turbulence of passing coaches and lorries but during the conversation it began to emerge that poor loading may have been a contributory factor in the incident.
Correct, Parksy. Speed itself doesn't cause instability, just as speed alone doesn't necessarily cause accidents. It's just that if instability does occur for whatever reason (turbulence of passing coaches and lorries is one valid possibility that you mention) then once the threshold speed of the respective outfit is exceeded, it will not recover from the instability of its own accord without appropriate action of some sort.
