We bought a 5 birth 2001 Swift Azzura the weekend. It appeared in good condition with a damp report and habituation report done on it. The seller (small dealer) did mention a bit of movement on the floor by the toilet door but said it was nothing to worry about. We had decided to give it a mini makeover so my other half started painting the interior. He pulled the carpet back to find a really soggy area of the floor, right by the main door. I think it will need replacing it looks that bad. I feel conned ! Not been in touch yet with the seller, Caravan is sold as seen with no warranty and we have started painting and also paid by bank transfer which isnt great, but then we have a damp report and habituation report which surely should have picked it up. Im am really sad, as we were so excited, My other half wants to have a go at fixing it ( its about the same size as a doormat), plus hes started painting it now and besides the floor seems all good but just wondering what others think. Is it an easy/cheap job? Im feeling that we overpaid for the caravan now £2800 as the floor is wet and must have a leak? and im thinking we either fix it ourselves and I try and get a partial refund or do you think we shouldn't attempt it, and take it back?
Soggy Bottom
- Thread starter Pon
- Start date
The picture you have posted is not "nothing to worry about" and becasue you were told that (it would help if that statement was witnessed) that is contrary to the Consumer Rights Act. 2015
You will need to seek advice on how to use the Act, and I suggest you read up on the act from places like Which? and the Money Saving Expert, where you may find some valuable information.
You will need to seek advice on how to use the Act, and I suggest you read up on the act from places like Which? and the Money Saving Expert, where you may find some valuable information.
Parksy
Moderator
Hi Pon
Welcome to the forum.
The floor looks as though it has separated from the body of the caravan and water is getting in.
As Prof mentioned, find out as much as you can about the Consumer Rights Act but contact the seller immediately to show the damage.
Your next step will depend upon the reply from the vendor.
Did you have the opportunity to inspect the caravan before you bought it?
It's all very well for a commercial dealer, large or small, to add 'No Warranty' to your receipt but a warranty can never replace your consumer rights and the lack of warranty can never invalidate your consumer rights.
If the supplying dealer is reputable they will admit that they overlooked this serious issue and either refund your purchase price and accept the caravan back or make good the necessary repairs.
You really should contact the dealer asap otherwise they might reply that the caravan was fine when you bought it and that you have somehow caused the damage during the time that you've had the caravan.
If the supplying dealers play hard ball and refuse to act, seek legal advice, formally reject the caravan in writing
and pursue the case through the small claims court.
I understand your disappointment, we've nearly all been there (I've bought some right old sheds in times past) but don't go in with all guns blazing at first.
It would be much better if the dealer is sympathetic and reasonable so try not to antagonize them unless they act unreasonably.
Knowledge is power, there is a very deep broad well of knowledge on this forum which we're all happy to share, so stay in touch and let us know what happens please.
Welcome to the forum.
The floor looks as though it has separated from the body of the caravan and water is getting in.
As Prof mentioned, find out as much as you can about the Consumer Rights Act but contact the seller immediately to show the damage.
Your next step will depend upon the reply from the vendor.
Did you have the opportunity to inspect the caravan before you bought it?
It's all very well for a commercial dealer, large or small, to add 'No Warranty' to your receipt but a warranty can never replace your consumer rights and the lack of warranty can never invalidate your consumer rights.
If the supplying dealer is reputable they will admit that they overlooked this serious issue and either refund your purchase price and accept the caravan back or make good the necessary repairs.
You really should contact the dealer asap otherwise they might reply that the caravan was fine when you bought it and that you have somehow caused the damage during the time that you've had the caravan.
If the supplying dealers play hard ball and refuse to act, seek legal advice, formally reject the caravan in writing
and pursue the case through the small claims court.
I understand your disappointment, we've nearly all been there (I've bought some right old sheds in times past) but don't go in with all guns blazing at first.
It would be much better if the dealer is sympathetic and reasonable so try not to antagonize them unless they act unreasonably.
Knowledge is power, there is a very deep broad well of knowledge on this forum which we're all happy to share, so stay in touch and let us know what happens please.
Damian
Moderator
From what I have gleaned from various sources regarding CRA, if the seller is a genuine dealer, and does so as a living, then they cannot get away with "sold as seen, with no warranty".
They are legally bound to comply with the Act.
They are legally bound to comply with the Act.
With respect to Parksy's comment about first asking the dealer, I do admit I jumped the gun a bit. However I had assumed that if the dealer had tried to gloss over the fault during the viewing, I assumed they are likely to obstruct a request for money back or a repair.
It could be, of course, the dealer did not know about the fault, though the spongy floor should have been a giveaway. I still thing it is advisable to read up about your rights under the CRA so you know what you should be asking and getting (incidentally the same act applies to every retail purchase you buy, from a box of matches to yacht and beyond, so its worthwhile knowing, and it applies to second hand as well as new purchases.
If the dealer does not offer to take it back for a full refund, then use your rights.
It could be, of course, the dealer did not know about the fault, though the spongy floor should have been a giveaway. I still thing it is advisable to read up about your rights under the CRA so you know what you should be asking and getting (incidentally the same act applies to every retail purchase you buy, from a box of matches to yacht and beyond, so its worthwhile knowing, and it applies to second hand as well as new purchases.
If the dealer does not offer to take it back for a full refund, then use your rights.
Parksy
Moderator
Be aware that the dealer might attempt to pass off the water damaged floor as 'delamination', a not uncommon fault with used caravans.
A delaminated floor will feel spongy underfoot and there are repair procedures that would resolve that problem.
A delaminated floor would still be the responsibility of the dealer to repair under CRA however , but from the photograph the problem looks to be more serious than a delaminated floor.
A delaminated floor will feel spongy underfoot and there are repair procedures that would resolve that problem.
A delaminated floor would still be the responsibility of the dealer to repair under CRA however , but from the photograph the problem looks to be more serious than a delaminated floor.
Thank you all for your kind welcome and your help. I will look into my consumer rights tonight and see what I can find out. I'm wondering how a return works when you have altered something, as yesterday before discovering the dodgy floor my partner painted half of the wood inside and the whole carpet has now been taken up too. We did our best to inspect it before purchase, we couldn't see or smell any damp anywhere, and searched in cupboards behind sofas etc. My partner looked at the whole of the caravan and the underneath and couldn't see anything obvious either. We also thought that the damp report which was only done 2 weeks ago was a good guarantee that all was well. The areas is that wet though and rotten that you could poke your finger through it so must have been like it for a while. Not really sure where it is coming in from other than maybe it's where Parksy said ( the floor has separated from the body of the caravan and water is getting in), as I can't see any damp on the walls and the carpet wasn't wet (the carpet was the original one and hadn't been replaced to cover up the patch). So all a bit confusing.
Parksy he did say it looks like a bit of delamination was by the toilet door and said nothing to worry about but if we wanted to buy a kit to fix it in the future that it was about £20. But when the carpet was peeled back this was found further over by the main door and yes its seems alot more serious.
Any ideas if its a big job to fix? My partner is very handy and can do most diy projects or is this a job for an expert?
Thanks
Parksy he did say it looks like a bit of delamination was by the toilet door and said nothing to worry about but if we wanted to buy a kit to fix it in the future that it was about £20. But when the carpet was peeled back this was found further over by the main door and yes its seems alot more serious.
Any ideas if its a big job to fix? My partner is very handy and can do most diy projects or is this a job for an expert?
Thanks
Attachments
I hope that you get a successful outcome. Regarding seeing or smelling damp. Apart from a small Trigano french caravan all of our caravans have had damp to one extent or another None could be smelt or seen. The damp was picked up early by regular damp testing checks. If it gets to the smell position then there is a real issue.
Parksy
Moderator
Hi again Pon
I've been thinking about your damp floor, and during a rare Eureka moment it occured to me that if the floor is still attached to the sidewall of your caravan and the caravan is dry overall, a likely and very common cause of the problem could be water ingress through the door seal.
It's difficult to tell from a photograph, so ask the dealer to take a look or to arrange for a caravan engineer to look.
The responsibility to repair the caravan (or to make a refund or exchange) remains with the supplying dealer, notwithstanding his 'sold as seen' ploy which as far as the CRA is concerned is meaningless.
When you chose your caravan it wasn't advertised as a damp caravan with a dodgy floor was it?
You purchased in good faith, a caravan door seal replacement isn't a big job but you really need some on the spot advice before taking legal action or doing anything drastic.
The floor area will almost certainly be delaminated, again well within the capability of a decent DIY er, but it might be worth asking a mobile caravan engineer to inspect the caravan and to carry out an independent damp test.
Get in touch with the dealer anyway, they might do the decent thing and help you.
Please let us know how you get on.
I've been thinking about your damp floor, and during a rare Eureka moment it occured to me that if the floor is still attached to the sidewall of your caravan and the caravan is dry overall, a likely and very common cause of the problem could be water ingress through the door seal.
It's difficult to tell from a photograph, so ask the dealer to take a look or to arrange for a caravan engineer to look.
The responsibility to repair the caravan (or to make a refund or exchange) remains with the supplying dealer, notwithstanding his 'sold as seen' ploy which as far as the CRA is concerned is meaningless.
When you chose your caravan it wasn't advertised as a damp caravan with a dodgy floor was it?
You purchased in good faith, a caravan door seal replacement isn't a big job but you really need some on the spot advice before taking legal action or doing anything drastic.
The floor area will almost certainly be delaminated, again well within the capability of a decent DIY er, but it might be worth asking a mobile caravan engineer to inspect the caravan and to carry out an independent damp test.
Get in touch with the dealer anyway, they might do the decent thing and help you.
Please let us know how you get on.
From your original picture its very difficult to tell how much of the caravan has been affected, but the appearance suggests it is certainly in the door way and probably has spread to under the kitchen unit and what ever is on the other side of the door. If it was just delamination that might be treatable, and a good repair can be very successful, but there is crack in the top surface which to me looks like shrinkage due to rot.
What is clear from the inspection report there is no reference to samples taken on the floor. Yet from what you tell us the dealer knew of the softness, so really the survey should have included the floor.
Just like dry rot and damp in houses, you have to remove ALL the affected wood, and that might include the bulk heads at either side of the door, and probably a substantial amount of flooring as well - any affected wood left in situe can re-seed the infestation. There is a fair possibility it might have started to climb the exterior walls also. This can only be checked by a thorough hands on inspection and sometimes it needs to be an invasive inspection.
Some adventurous DIY'ers have attempted major repairs, so it can be done, but you didn't ask for a damp caravan, so the dealer should not have sold you one, and he did claim there was nothing to worry about, when very clearly there is, so why should you have to do the work when it was the responsibility of the dealer to have checked the goods before making false claims, or at least playing down the extent of the damage.
Do read up about your rights . Knowing your rights can give you confidence to know what to expect and that leaves you in a strong position. If you opt for a repair, the seller has one chance to do it to a good standard.
A correctly repaired caravan should be as serviceable as if the fault had not occurred, Done properly there should be no obvious signs of the repair. If the repair is obvious you will have to decide if you want the caravan, or whether you want to negotiate a partial refund becasue of the caravans damaged status having a reduced value.
What is clear from the inspection report there is no reference to samples taken on the floor. Yet from what you tell us the dealer knew of the softness, so really the survey should have included the floor.
Just like dry rot and damp in houses, you have to remove ALL the affected wood, and that might include the bulk heads at either side of the door, and probably a substantial amount of flooring as well - any affected wood left in situe can re-seed the infestation. There is a fair possibility it might have started to climb the exterior walls also. This can only be checked by a thorough hands on inspection and sometimes it needs to be an invasive inspection.
Some adventurous DIY'ers have attempted major repairs, so it can be done, but you didn't ask for a damp caravan, so the dealer should not have sold you one, and he did claim there was nothing to worry about, when very clearly there is, so why should you have to do the work when it was the responsibility of the dealer to have checked the goods before making false claims, or at least playing down the extent of the damage.
Do read up about your rights . Knowing your rights can give you confidence to know what to expect and that leaves you in a strong position. If you opt for a repair, the seller has one chance to do it to a good standard.
A correctly repaired caravan should be as serviceable as if the fault had not occurred, Done properly there should be no obvious signs of the repair. If the repair is obvious you will have to decide if you want the caravan, or whether you want to negotiate a partial refund becasue of the caravans damaged status having a reduced value.
As said as they are a dealer they still have CRA 2015 obligations and you can reject the caravan within the first 30 days. I am not sure, but I think paying £2800 for a 20 year old caravan without any sort of warranty may have been over the top especially with damp as bad as this one. I am wondering who did the damp test 2 weeks earlier, the dealer or a third party?
Maybe as a first step is to draft a letter immediately stating that you have found very bad damp in the caravan which makes it unfit for purpose under section 9, 10 and 11 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and you are exercising your right under Section 20, 21 and 22 of the same act to reject the goods within the first 30 days. Send it snail mail and ask the Post Office for proof of posting. Request a response in writing. Do not email. At this point do not mention that you have done any alterations to the caravan. Wait until they respond. If they do not respond within 7 days go to the next step. I am sure that there are some of us that help advise you with drafting up a letter. We can only offer advice and it is then up to you to decide which advice to use.
If they respond unfavourably or not at all, I would strongly suggest that you pay an AWS technician to do a damp check and report on the caravan as soon as possible. The report could demonstrate that the damp has been there for quite some time and will also pick up other issues. You need have a lot of ammunition to use if the issue needs to be taken further.
Maybe as a first step is to draft a letter immediately stating that you have found very bad damp in the caravan which makes it unfit for purpose under section 9, 10 and 11 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and you are exercising your right under Section 20, 21 and 22 of the same act to reject the goods within the first 30 days. Send it snail mail and ask the Post Office for proof of posting. Request a response in writing. Do not email. At this point do not mention that you have done any alterations to the caravan. Wait until they respond. If they do not respond within 7 days go to the next step. I am sure that there are some of us that help advise you with drafting up a letter. We can only offer advice and it is then up to you to decide which advice to use.
If they respond unfavourably or not at all, I would strongly suggest that you pay an AWS technician to do a damp check and report on the caravan as soon as possible. The report could demonstrate that the damp has been there for quite some time and will also pick up other issues. You need have a lot of ammunition to use if the issue needs to be taken further.
I tend to agree with the others on your rights against the dealer so will not repeat what is said. It is a pity you did not use a credit card as this gives additional protection.
One point the others may not appreciate, is that you could have a claim against the person carrying out the damp survey. Unfortunately I could not see the date or who did the survey on the bottom of the form, but if this was recent and certainly was done for the dealer to enable him to sell, you will have a claim.
Basically the tester knows that the dealers customer will be likely to be rely on the report. This knowledge places you within the area of person who is within the reasonable contemplation of the tester when he tests the caravan, in the circumstances you would have a claim against him. He should have professional indemnity insurance against this type of claim if he is a member of a professional body or has been properley advised by his insurance broker.
One point the others may not appreciate, is that you could have a claim against the person carrying out the damp survey. Unfortunately I could not see the date or who did the survey on the bottom of the form, but if this was recent and certainly was done for the dealer to enable him to sell, you will have a claim.
Basically the tester knows that the dealers customer will be likely to be rely on the report. This knowledge places you within the area of person who is within the reasonable contemplation of the tester when he tests the caravan, in the circumstances you would have a claim against him. He should have professional indemnity insurance against this type of claim if he is a member of a professional body or has been properley advised by his insurance broker.
Thanks folks for all your help. You have all been really informative. I'm going to put a letter together now and i'll keep you all updated. Fingers crossed we get a good response, but my gut says we won't. The damp and habituation report was done on 28/5/20 by a company that specialises in these things and so like Ray mentioned there might be a chance we could claim against them. But like Prof said earlier I don't know why they tested the rest of the caravan with the damp meter and didn't do the floor. I really wish we could have paid on the credit card too, but as he was only a small dealer he said he needed bank transfer so we dont have any protection now. Last year we bought a second hand car and 2 months later the engine blew up. The garage refused to take it back and in the end we had to claim our money back through the credit card. It took 7 months all together and so much paperwork and reports but we were grateful that they bank helped. Because of all of this I really don't fancy all of the hassle involved with this as if he refuses to help then we don't have the bank as a back up and it means the small claims court then. The fact that we have painted half of it does really worry me though as I don't know if this is an issue for rejecting a return or not. Thanks again everyone
Hello Pon,
I'm really sorry to read of your recent experiences. Also from your last post I do find it strange that a reputable dealer would insist on bank transfer. This seems to suggest there might be something less than total honesty going on here.
I agree with Raywood, as it seems the damp report was used to entice you to purchase in the belief the caravan had no damp issues.
With regards the actual report certificate, the lack of who and when the report was created on the actual page is suspicious, and on closer inspection of the writing, I am not a handwriting expert, but it seems to me the details of the caravan may have been added in a different hand... that is suspicious:-
The form of the letters and numbers in the caravan serial number have a subtle difference in the way they have been written (look at the A's) and the zero's to the characters used elsewhere on the sheet. also the alignment of the writing relative to the guideline rises more than the subjective comments which follow the lines more closely.
I hope I'm wrong , but I do fear that you may have been deliberately defrauded.
I'm really sorry to read of your recent experiences. Also from your last post I do find it strange that a reputable dealer would insist on bank transfer. This seems to suggest there might be something less than total honesty going on here.
I agree with Raywood, as it seems the damp report was used to entice you to purchase in the belief the caravan had no damp issues.
With regards the actual report certificate, the lack of who and when the report was created on the actual page is suspicious, and on closer inspection of the writing, I am not a handwriting expert, but it seems to me the details of the caravan may have been added in a different hand... that is suspicious:-
The form of the letters and numbers in the caravan serial number have a subtle difference in the way they have been written (look at the A's) and the zero's to the characters used elsewhere on the sheet. also the alignment of the writing relative to the guideline rises more than the subjective comments which follow the lines more closely.
I hope I'm wrong , but I do fear that you may have been deliberately defrauded.
TBH I did not want to say that, but I suspect you are correct with your statement which is probably why they wanted a bank transfer. I am wondering if a bank transfer can be recalled as it seems fraudsters can recall payments? I also suspect that they will suddenly shut up shop and disappear if the OP rejects the caravan or asks for a refund. Although there is nothing inside a caravan to paint, I wonder if the paint could be removed? An argument could be that by painting it, the value has been improved? I am unsure on that point?
Hi Pon,
whilst you’re photo shows black staining can you determine if the floor is actually wet / damp?
I have a similar patch under a seat caused by a leaking tap. It often looks far worse than it is. No actual damage was actually done but it took weeks to thoroughly dry out. My damp meter registers no damp,present. I just wondered if this case here.I agree with Parksy on the potential point of water ingress. I too notice the small split in the upper ply surface, characteristic of drying out shrinkage post damp and possible delamination. It was mentioned you inspected the underside of the floor and all was in order??
I fully agree with all the comments regarding the CRA . If this is only delamination, providing the origin of the water ingress has been identified and fixed, then the repair process is very simple and well within the ability of a good DIY chap. Best of luck.
whilst you’re photo shows black staining can you determine if the floor is actually wet / damp?
I have a similar patch under a seat caused by a leaking tap. It often looks far worse than it is. No actual damage was actually done but it took weeks to thoroughly dry out. My damp meter registers no damp,present. I just wondered if this case here.I agree with Parksy on the potential point of water ingress. I too notice the small split in the upper ply surface, characteristic of drying out shrinkage post damp and possible delamination. It was mentioned you inspected the underside of the floor and all was in order??
I fully agree with all the comments regarding the CRA . If this is only delamination, providing the origin of the water ingress has been identified and fixed, then the repair process is very simple and well within the ability of a good DIY chap. Best of luck.
Oh dear Prof its not looking good is it. You are very observant with the hand writing, I do have the name of the company that did the report, I just cut that bit off the bottom of the picture as I thought it wasn't wise to publish it. I've googled them, they have a website and seem legit but who knows !
Dustydog, yes it is wet to touch and rotten and soft. My partner did have a look underneath and couldn't see anything obvious but we are novices to all this so its difficult to know for sure. Interesting to know that the damp meter didn't pick your problem up though.
We have started to paint all of the wood so It can't be removed now Buckman, I will look into the bank transfer to see if it could be recalled if they have done a runner, good idea. Thanks
Dustydog, yes it is wet to touch and rotten and soft. My partner did have a look underneath and couldn't see anything obvious but we are novices to all this so its difficult to know for sure. Interesting to know that the damp meter didn't pick your problem up though.
We have started to paint all of the wood so It can't be removed now Buckman, I will look into the bank transfer to see if it could be recalled if they have done a runner, good idea. Thanks
At the value under discussion the Small Claims Court in-line process is very simple. If the Dealer doesn’t dispute but it goes through more quickly. But even if they do your case seems one that the SCC would view in your favour.
It depends on how a SCC would view it. It wasnt an unreasonable act on behalf of the new owners who had no reason given the sellers damp report to doubt the integrity of the caravan. The SCC might reduce any award but in my experience they are invariably on the side of the plaintiff if there’s a genuine case. Must be worth a try if dialogue with the dealer gets nowhere. My approach would be to get a refund by dialogue but use the SCC if I couldn’t get satisfaction from the dealer. You have to be firm in your approach and whilst dialogue is best leave the dealer in no doubt as to your actions if dialogue is unsuccessful. And do write everything down. No emails fir the important communications. Letters.
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You were right to obscure the name of the company, at least until any complaints or legal matters have been concluded and evidence wrongdoing has been verified.
Let me be clear, we only have your side of the story, and I'm not suggesting you have corrupted it, but we are not in a position to test or prove the validity of any claims or reports in this thread, so I have to tread cautiously.
That being said, the story has many slightly suspicious activities and it is easy to conclude that on balance the seller may not have been as honest as they should.
The important point in the proceedings is that you enquired of the seller the condition of the caravan, and the sponginess of the floor was discussed, and you were given a condition survey, which was presented as having been performed very recently, and the report states in writing the condition was good considering the age of the caravan. The seller also stated "the sponginess was not serious" These assurances enticed you to purchase the caravan.
It was only a short time after whilst you were cleaning and refreshing (painting) the caravan the water damage was exposed, and to be honest I don't think a coat of paint would be classed as a major conversion reducing the functionality of caravan.
The CRA focuses on activities related to the point of sale (when the goods are physically passed to the customer) If a fault arrises the Act asks you to prove it was present at the point of sale. The evidence of the sponginess floor was discussed before the sale, so that cannot be disputed. What is in question is the severity, and the impact on value of the caravan.
Cruishall to this is to establish exactly what the damage is. Is it just minor delamination as you accepted or is it more serious. If its more serious, did the dealer seek to hide the actual damage to promote the sale.
If the case does go to court, it will be judged on the basis of civil law which looks for the balance of probabilities such as a reasonable person would see.
I sincerely hope my doubts are unfounded and the dealer was acting in good faith, and does consider genuinely helping to resolve the problem amicably.
Although technically you are correct about “ going to court” the Small Claims Court online process is for claims up to £10000. If the OP reads the Citizens Advice publications ( on line) it will give them a good explanation of how to go about trying to get a satisfactory outcome. And you have to demonstrate that you have taken the necessary actions to try and resolve the matter before using the SCC; which is dead simple.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/l...gal-action/small-claims/making-a-small-claim/
The point about the painting is interesting and I have not come across that before. Provided what you did was reasonable, or you told the dealer you were going to do it before you purchased it, my feeling is that it would not be a problem. If it was done badly and devalued the caravan, then the dealer might be justified in deducting something, assuming he agreed to return your money.
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