someone PLEASE help

[AKA]

Hi Parksy
We last spoke to them very amicably on friday(day i was out of hospital) and we spoke at lenght about the problem and the resolutions as we saw it. At no point did she emention they were going away, in fact without going into to much detail that was one of the reasons they were selling the van as they just dont get away, or had a chance to use it due to there on circumstances.
I have left another email polite but firm asking them to make some kind of contact by lunch time tomorrow or i will presume that they are resisting us trying to make suitable contact and resolutions that are amicable for both parties, if again we hear nothing, I feel we have no option but to persue this down a far more formal legal route. Which is so sad as we were willing to try and sort this out, but quiet frankly as more time passes my hackles are going up.

but yes I think maybe a diary type of thing might be helpful for anyone unfortunate enough to be in our shoes in future.
So far
I have all emails exchanged
our reciepts
all dates of other correspondance.like when advert appear on Gumtree and it cached address.
date when viewed
date caravan collected
etc.
thanks so much for allowing me to vent and for guidance

 

[thursdays child]

Poor lollie you are experiencing

the very thing all new purchasers of used caravans dread most"damp".I do so understand how very hurt you feel but this will quickly change into action mode.Try to avoid becoming emotional and keep records of ALL correspondence,dates.times.names,costs and experts reports. Is the van about to fall apart or in a dangerous condition becaus if the answer is "no" maybe a less drastic solution is available to make it habitable for a few years to enable you to use it and then move on.
All this is compounded by the fact that you are in the early stages of recovery from surgery,You will get stronger day by day and then you will come out of your corner fighting and I am sure an answer will be found,It may not be the perfect solution but you will prevail in the end. It has been my experuence that given time "right will prevail" I offer my heartfelt best wishes in your endevour
Thursdays Child

 

[Parksy]

Hi Parksy
We last spoke to them very amicably on friday(day i was out of hospital) and we spoke at length about the problem and the resolutions as we saw it. At no point did she mention they were going away, in fact without going into to much detail that was one of the reasons they were selling the van as they just dont get away, or had a chance to use it due to there on circumstances.
I have left another email polite but firm asking them to make some kind of contact by lunch time tomorrow or i will presume that they are resisting us trying to make suitable contact and resolutions that are amicable for both parties, if again we hear nothing, I feel we have no option but to pursue this down a far more formal legal route. Which is so sad as we were willing to try and sort this out, but quiet frankly as more time passes my hackles are going up.

but yes I think maybe a diary type of thing might be helpful for anyone unfortunate enough to be in our shoes in future.
So far
I have all emails exchanged
our receipts
all dates of other correspondence.like when advert appear on Gumtree and it cached address.
date when viewed
date caravan collected
etc.
thanks so much for allowing me to vent and for guidance

You are doing everything right and please feel free to give vent to your feelings as much as you want to

A trouble shared and all that!
I've bought a couple of lemons in my time, not quite as much money was involved but significant sums for us at that time.
It's not nice when you feel cheated and I hope that you have a good outcome.
I made it my business to find out as much as I could regarding what to look out for when buying a caravan after my early experiences so if you ever decide to buy another caravan and want some advice please ask on this forum and myself and others will be glad to help.
Have you thought about contacting these people by registered post or recorded delivery?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Lollie,

I'm sorry to hear of the poor health, and having gone thorough a scare resulting in major heart surgery my self 6 years ago, I know how it wears you out and focuses your perspective on life.

You say

with second hand vans, there would seem very little legal protection for second hand vanners in comparision to purchasing a second hand car.
lollie

Well that's not quite right; You have exactly the same rights, as the law looks at the contract and transaction first and then the goods. Your problem seems to be related to the fact it was a private sale rather than with a trader. But exactly the same criteria would apply if you bought a car privately. The only difference is by law cars over three years old have to have an MOT which might reduce the possibility the car was not up to scratch.

Others on the forum are suggesting that you go and start to get legal about trying to get your money back. and whilst that is a possibility, I think it is only fair to point out there signification grounds to suggest that an action may fail.

I have to assume from your postings that the damp problem was not visually obvious, as you did not discover it until the van was put in for a service some time after you purchased it. This being so it is possible the seller was genuinely not aware of the problem. By your own admission, you thought the caravan was in good condition when you purchased it, so you in essence agreed with the sellers description, and you indicated your acceptance by paying a substantial sum for the caravan.

Whilst it has no direct bearing on the damp condition in the caravan; You were also clearly not unduly concerned by the fact the caravan had not been serviced since 2003. Damp problems are not a direct result of missing services, BUT regular services may have detected a damp problem at an early stage.

Unlike purchasing new goods from a trader, where for the first six months the law assumes any faults or causes were present at the time of sale, the same assumption is not usually workable or enforceable in private second hand sales. The law assumes the buyer will make every effort to ensure any goods conform to their expectations and in essence the point of sale is also the point of no return. The phrase "Buyer Beware" is very relevant.

The main exception to this is where the seller has knowingly misrepresented the goods with a view to deceive and commit a fraud. I know that in your case the word "immaculate" is in question, but the other crucial element is did the seller know about the condition.

The test in civil cases is on the balance of probability would a normal person be reasonably able to detect the condition?

I believe your only real hope is that the seller may do the honourable thing and refund your money, but other wise, whilst there may be little doubt that the caravan was damp when you bought it, You will need to be able to show that the seller knew about the damp and was deliberately trying to conceal it or deliberately misrepresented the condition in the advert and any dealings you had with the seller.

Given your report that you did not see the damp at the time, makes it difficult to prove the seller must have known about it and was therefore misrepresenting or concealing the facts.

As there is an area of doubt, I strongly suggest you take proper legal advice before initiating any formal proceedings.

 

[loadsadogs]

Prof J set out the legal position very clearly, but I wonder whether a letter from a solicitor to the sellers might add some pressure and get them to do the decent thing and, at the very least, refund some of Lollie's money? They must be living in dread of the phone ringing or the doorbell going right now, and a solicitor's letter would certainly put the wind up me, so might be worth a try.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Lollie
Hope you make a rapid recovery.
In the absence of a verbal reply from the vendors I think it is now time to write them a letter setting out your grievance and asking for a full return of your money.
Prof John has given you an excellent balanced view . My concern is that you bought this caravan without having it professionally checked and apparently in the full knowledge it hadn't been serviced for 8 years!
The upside is if the Gumtree advertisement used words like "immaculate etc" it may be construed as a misrepresentation of material fact. In the event you can demonstrably prove the vendor knew the damp existed you may have a case.
If the damp is as bad as you say I would expect a very musty smell. Does it smell?
If you would like someone to help in frafting the first letter please let us know although I am sure the CAB will do this for you.

At the moment an amicable resolution is best.
Good luck.

 

[Surfer]

It must be remembered that as a private buyer you cannot start pulling things apart to check for damp and it is not expected that you buy a damp meter if the advert states "immaculate" as that is what it should be. I am beginning to suspect that perhaps they knew all along and were hoping you would not find out so soon. Also in the eyes of the law "sold as seen" has no relevance, but an advert stating its condition does. You have a very strong case for a refund either way.

 

[AKA]

HI guys
Unfortunatly thats me just awake all im doing is sleeping not helped by the cold weather up here at the moment..
All the new comments again very helpful and interesting must disscuss them with OH when he comes back in, because we are wary of going in all guns blazing right away, but yes perhaps a letter recorded deliver either from ourselves or CAB might just let them know we arent going to put up with being ignored,. I need to get on phone to CAB, i just feel so bloody bogged down by all this, talk about perfect timing, and the blooming van is sitting there mocking me when i wake........achh
I take on board what surfer is saying to im frightened to touch it too as then its kinda like removing evidence, but ever time it rains i just want to scream, and in all honesty im frightened we end up with a bigger mess on my hands, my OH cant even mastic a bath never mind caravan seams..Having read the engineers report out to the previous owners on friday there seems there is a deff problem on the right side of the van as thats the only side with problems although very concentrated at the back.the left side of the van is totally damp free,.
I am at the point at the moment where I can see nothing is going to happen very fast which is winding me up because this was the first time as a family that we had all these plans to get away. whilst we are going down the route of persuing a legal claim is it still ok to be using the van? if so how apart from airing it, and allowing it to bake in the very little sun we have would you say was the best way to begin drying it out?? the wall in the cupboard is spongy remember? is there any point in drying it our without resealing it??

Thanks Prof John for a very balance view i totally aperciate where your coming from, and also to thursdays child for such a heartwarming post.
But I also want to say thank you to you ALL for keeping me focused everyday and not letting the B**$£rs grind me down

love to you all lollie x

 

[Parksy]

HI guys
Unfortunatly thats me just awake all im doing is sleeping not helped by the cold weather up here at the moment..

All the new comments again very helpful and interesting must disscuss them with OH when he comes back in, because we are way orf going in all guns blazing right away, but yes perhaps a letter recorded deliver either from ourselves or CAB might just let them know we arent going to put up with being ignored,. I need to get on phone to CAB, i just feel so bloody bogged down by all this, talk about perfect timing, and the blooming van is sitting there mocking me when i wake........ach..............

You are certain to feel tired after having surgery so recently Lollie so take whatever rest you can in order to make a full recovery.
The impression that I get is that the people who sold the caravan did rather well out of the sale financially after neglecting their responsibilities as regards having the caravan serviced regularly and now they are hoping against hope that you will simply go away.
Obviously that's not about to happen but your 'softly softly' approach is spot on.
I've been trying (without success) to find a topic which I started last year when my best mate sold his Bailey Pageant Champagne via a private sale.
The caravan looked 'immaculate', clean and tidy throughout with no scuffs or scrapes (although it hadn't been serviced) and it should have been a good buy for the gentleman who bought it for a fair price.
Unknown to my mate the caravan had a minute crack in the abs front panel which had allowed water ingress.
The buyer paid cash and took the caravan away and then he wisely had it checked over by a competent technician who found signs of damp in places.
The general consensus of opinion was that my mate had no real obligation to refund any money because he'd sold the caravan specifically as 'sold as seen' and the buyer had inspected the caravan and could have had it checked properly before the sale was completed.
The buyer contacted my mate who asked to see the caravan engineers report which gave details of the problem with the caravan.
I'm glad to say that my mate did the decent thing and refunded the buyer in full having accepted the caravan back, he ended up trading it in for a brand new Bailey Olympus.
While I was looking for the topic I found some guidance from Practical Caravan Click Here for Details
The relevant part of the advice applicable in your case seems somewhat ambiguous:
'Buyer beware
You should also be aware that:
● You have no comeback if you bought privately (‘sold as seen’ e ectively means ‘buyer beware’).
● The law is on the side of the seller if you could have noticed any defects (for instance, if you examined the vehicle and that examination should have revealed the defects in question). Only if they were hidden or latent problems (such as damp) can you sue for compensation.'
Because you are not competent to test a caravan for damp I'd say that the second part of the advice applies, the previous owner might not have been aware of the damp problem so why should you be expected to know about it?

Is there anyone near to you , perhaps a friend or relative who enjoys a spot of diy? If the worst happens the caravan could be repaired with a little time and patience, I know of somebody who has and regularly uses a caravan that is riddled with damp so they use a large awning to sit in most of the time, also many people have damp caravans without even knowing about it.
I wouldn't use the caravan quite yet, you need to know what course of action that you are going to take first and this will depend on the response from the previous owner.

 

[AKA]

Hi parksy

I forgot to mention that the reciept that we have DOES'T say sold as seen.
And I totally agree with you about part 2 option of it being a fault that we were never likely to see.
The other thing that we have comfirmed today via PCmag is that our engineer is NCC registered as they were trying to contest that.
We have a CAB appointment at 10am in tomorrow and are taking all our paper work with us, they also asked to take any photographic evidence which thankfully there isnt any as such,as there is no staining or moulds, and still no smell to indicate a problem.
We have a very detailed report from the engineer 3 pages with diagrams,and all our paper work as mentioned.

Im affraid if they thought i was just going to get board and go away they have another thing coming it isnt in my nature, i am a great and loyal friend, but I make a bloody awful ememy.

The worst thing about this which makes it worse i feel is they knew that the money my husband was using to pay for the van was a small inheritance that he got when his grandpa died last october. Im so angry at there damned indiginity.

thanks again lollie

i will post again after meeting tomorrow if anyone can think of anything else to take, i'll have a look in again later
Havent heard from gumtree yet, but hopefully they can trace deleated post

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Surfer,

Also in the eyes of the law "sold as seen" has no relevance, but an advert stating its condition does.

You have made a statement very similar to this previously:

Now I recognise that we can only report our own experiences, but I find it very strange that "sold as seen" is widely suggested as an appropriate phrase to use when privately selling secondhand goods. Perhapse there is a preferd legal phrase, but "sold as seen" is pretty descriptive in my book, and as such cases are usually based on civil law, rather than criminal law, the courts interpret and tend accept comon language usage.
I am increasingly led to the conclusion that perhapse there were other circumstances involved in your experience which led to the courts rulling in your case.
Based on a family members expereice of case that went to court, the phrase "sold as seen" was positvely upheld. It was also the advice that was received from the solicitors involved.
Now the valididty of either of our reports cannot be checked by readers for two main reasons. Firstly as we both choose to use nicknames to protect out identies so readers do not know who we are, and secondly as the trasncripts of the cases are not published, the details of each case cannot be verified.
It is for that reason that I always encourage readers to seek professional guidance on such matters.
But with reagrds to consumer law, there are plenty of authoratitive web sites where the information can be trusted, and one in particular that is controlled by Martin Lewis who is reknowed and a consumer rites champion.

Check out the following web page which includes the following text on secondhand goods about half way down:-

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange

"Second-hand or 'on sale' doesn't mean second-rate

Even if the item's second-hand or reduced, it doesn't mean you get second-rate consumer rights, except where the seller pointed out the specific problems before you bought.
The same consumer right rules apply to second-hand and sale goods from shops; they must be of satisfactory quality and, if they're faulty, you can return them.
If you buy a used motor from a trader or grab a £700 'sale' telly with 30% off and they go kaput once you get home, then take it back and complain.
It's worth stressing that the second-hand price will be taken into account, so if you buy a car for a fiver, you wouldn't expect it to run normally. For more info on second hand cars see thisCitizens Advice article.

Watch out too if the goods were uber-cheap because of a blindingly obvious flaw. In this case, the shop could refuse to refund you.
The rules change with private sellers
If you're buying second-hand goods from private seller (someone who doesn't sell goods for all or part of their living) your rights are nowhere near as strong as when buying from a shop.
The only protection is that it's correctly described and the owner has the right to sell it. Here it really is a case of caveat emptor or 'let the buyer beware'.
So if the seller says nowt or little about the goods and you buy it, then that's it. Even if it's shoddy, you weren't mis-sold, so have no comeback. Though if they lie to you – you do."

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Lollie,
I'm sorry if my postings in this thread are not all positive, I happen to think it is wrong to build up false hopes when there is considerable doubt about a positive outcome.

The use of words like 'sold as seen' on a recipt are not strictly necessary in the case of a private sale as it is assumed that the sale is the final action and closure on the deal, however it seems a wise to include the phrase if you are selling an old untetsted item.

The situation is different for a trader, where the sale of gods act still plays a part even for second hand goods. If a trader has an iten with a known fault, and provided the fault is pointed out to the buyer before they pay for the item, then the buyer cannot return the goods under complaint for that particular fault. In some cases the condition of an item is undetermined, and the trader may offer the item for sale "sold as seen" so the buyer is fully aware that the there is no warranty that the item is fit for purpose. In other words the buyer is aware the goods may or does have unspecified faults.

However the law on misrepresentation still applies; for example if a seller advertises a Sony TV for sale Sold as Seen, but infact the set turns out to be a Sanyo, then that is misrepresentation whether its a private or trade sale.

The use of the word "imaculate" is open to interpretation, for example does it mean 'as new' or does it mean in good condition considering its age and usuage. - it is my guess that the courts may tend towards the second interpretation, as they will say that a reasonable person should be aware that a product of such an age is highly unlikely to be in the same condition as when it was brand new.

Realistically I think the only way you will get the sellers to refund is if you can show that they must have known about the damp condition before they sold the caravan.

 

[Parksy]

Hello again Lollie,
...................Realistically I think the only way you will get the sellers to refund is if you can show that they must have known about the damp condition before they sold the caravan.

This advice is somewhat at odds with the advice from Practical Caravan who state:
Buyer beware
You should also be aware that:
● You have no comeback if you bought privately (‘sold as seen’ eeffectively means ‘buyer beware’).
● The law is on the side of the seller if you could have noticed any defects (for instance, if you examined the vehicle and that examination should have revealed the defects in question). Only if they were hidden or latent problems (such as damp) can you sue for compensation.

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/advice/knowing-your-consumer-rights
The implication of the above statement is that if a buyer couldn't reasonably be expected to detect the presence of a latent problem such as damp or water ingress (and as inexperienced caravanners why would they?) then there might be a possibility of success in a small claims court if matters were to go that far.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Parksey,

Yes I did read the PC advice, and as you mentioned in an earlier post is ambiguous,

Buyer beware is the adage that every purchaser of secondhand goods must use.- even from traders.

As I understand it the first PC point under buyer beware is the definitive situation regarding private transactions. once the contract hase been completed there is no legal comeback for the condition, unless you can prove the seller deliberatly tried to conceal the faults.

The second point is only likely to stick where a trader is involved, beacse a trader is deemed to have a specialised knowledge of the products they sell and should be more alert to the possibility of hidden faults such as damp as the age of a caravan increases.

As I explained to Lollie, whilst I wish them luck with obtaining a refund, I have serious doubts as to there being a sustainable legal case if moral pressure fails.

I shall repeat, I believe it all hinges on being able to show that the sellers knew about damp prior to the sale, and thus they attempted to conceal the condition by omitting to mention it, and by describing the caravan as immaculate.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Whatever the legalities I hope lollie gets a positive outcome. The seller, as a caravanner of some years must have known about the problem of damp in caravans but lollie, as a newcomer to caravanning, probably wasn't aware of the problem.
I suppose it all comes down to reading up on the subject and talking to other caravanners before parting with your money.

 

[Surfer]

By law there is no such thing as "Sold as seen" and I have stated this previously. The legal term is "Caveat Emptor".and I doubt if moneysavingexpert is an authority on this. However here is a link to your rights when buying from a as a private seller. See here
However the Misrepresentation Act S2(1) allows for damages where an innocent misrepresentation was made however it goes on to state "unless he proves that he had reasonable ground to believe and did believe up to the time the contract was made the facts represented were true".

 

[AKA]

Hi Guys

Thanks again for such detailed input, i really apprecite the time it takes to find these papers for me, and indeed we shall be using these sources later.
The meeting at Citzen Advice went well and indeed they are going along misrepresentation and the sales of goods act, with the strongest evidence that we were sold something that wasnt "fit for purpose" we have been advised to right a formal letter (sent RD) quoting the various sales acts, regards to misrepresentation and also second hand goods, etc, and to enclose photocopies (which they supplied) of our engineers report.
They said it could be lenghty but that hopefully they will relise that we arent just about to go away, but that in fact they should either
1) purchase the van back
2) pay for the repairs to be carried out by an registered engineer at our convenience
3) pay our losses if we have to pass the van to trade

Im also very tempted to quote help recieved via PCmag, but would that be ok with you Parksy??
Prof John, i do appriciate your balance view, and im glad for your input.
Surfer, thanks again for helping us fight a good fight
cant remembered who said about Martin Lewis but yes he came to thought the other night i may well email him later,via MSE

thanks all again EVERYONE, it isnt half as lonely doing and going through all this with all this support you are giving us, thank you.
lollie x

 

[Parksy]

Im also very tempted to quote help recieved via PCmag, but would that be ok with you Parksy??

Please do Lollie, it's such a pity that you are in this unfortunate situation but one of the many browsers or lurkers who never post on this forum may be helped or informed by reading about this.
Buying a used caravan can be a minefield and Practical Caravan magazine has the expertise to help while fellow forum members have in many cases had some experience.

 

[Surfer]

Pleased to hear that you got some positive advice from CAB. Hopefully they will capitulate and refund your money.

 

[AKA]

Hi guys
I have just typed my draft letter and i must admit it is very carthartic, and quite fun being that i must remain emotionless actually being a scientist im finding that going into reporting mode quite good!!! wish I could print it here just now but that wouldnt be appropriate

, but i will when we come to some what conclusion, even if PCmag follows this up i think it would be helpful for other to view it..what I will say is that clear parts of the law are stated as supplied by yourselves, PCmag and CAB, and 3 clear option that they have, with a response date at a maximum of 7 days, we intend to post RD tomorrow.
a bit of a happier lollie,

Now are you'se any good at getting wounds to heal LOL

 

[Parksy]

Now are you'se any good at getting wounds to heal LOL

According to the milkmaids round at Screwham Hall, Lord Braykewynde regularly practices the 'laying on of hands' but I would steer clear if I were you

 

[AKA]

ohhhhhhhhh eeeeeeerrrrrrrr!!!! I say, RUN!!! LOL hahaha
the bugging things are so itchy

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Now are you'se any good at getting wounds to heal LOL

According to the milkmaids round at Screwham Hall, Lord Braykewynde regularly practices the 'laying on of hands' but I would steer clear if I were you

Sadly that's all I'm good for these days with the milkmaids and stable lasses due to chillblains but my chambermaid would write me a reference especially after she's given me my nightcap of Horlicks and Viagra

 

[AKA]

As a scientist and a woman Im hoping they cancel each out LOL

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Steady Lord B, take plenty of Horlics with your Viagra, you don't want that little blue pill stuck in your throat, you could end up with a very stiff neck