Spare wheel

[Themass31]

Hi
When travelling to austria this summer I had to change one of my wheels on my swift 590, I tried to get the wheel from under my caravan but it wouldn't pull out so I had to drop the whole alko frame.
when I did get to my spare wheel both bolts where rusted on so I couldn't get them off and had to call out brake down rescue in Belgium, I felt let down by Broadland considering I get this van serviced each year, I have emailed Broadland but got no response is this something Broadland is responsible for or is it up to the owner to check the serviceability of the alko spare wheel carrier.
craig

 

[SteveW77]

Hi
When travelling to austria this summer I had to change one of my wheels on my swift 590, I tried to get the wheel from under my caravan but it wouldn't pull out so I had to drop the whole alko frame.
when I did get to my spare wheel both bolts where rusted on so I couldn't get them off and had to call out brake down rescue in Belgium, I felt let down by Broadland considering I get this van serviced each year, I have emailed Broadland but got no response is this something Broadland is responsible for or is it up to the owner to check the serviceability of the alko spare wheel carrier.
craig

It's the owners responsibility to ensure that his/ her vehicle is fit for the use.
You may well have a case to say that the servicing agent should have dealt with this on a routine service, but to go on the continent without checking such a basic thing was in my humble opinion foolhardy to say the least.

Steve W

 

[Gybe]

It's the owners responsibility to ensure that his/ her vehicle is fit for the use.
You may well have a case to say that the servicing agent should have dealt with this on a routine service, but to go on the continent without checking such a basic thing was in my humble opinion foolhardy to say the least.
Steve W

So you expect every driver to go around car and caravan checking that every bolt or screw that may just need turning does so easily

Generally this forum seems to believe that wheel changing is a life threatening operation on one hand and only too be carried out by highly trained emergency service personnel and now Craig gets a virtual slap in the face as he isn't Mr Perfect as he expected the service agent to have done a thorough job during servicing. I would say it was doubtfull that the servicing mecahnic checked the spare wheel correctly.
I guess Craig should have also have gone over the caravan and wheels with his torque wrench when he collected it from the dealers servicing workshop or it would have been his fault if a wheel had dropped off 30 seconds up the road ;-)
A good percentage of drivers on the road can't undo wheel bolts or jack even up their cars and many that do often find that they can't remove the alloy wheels from the steel hub it's mated with. Does that also make their cars unfit for use?

Give the guy a break!

 

[Damian]

The spare wheel and assembly should have been checked, the wheel for correct pressure and the carrier greased and all the bits that need removing to get the wheel out also greased to ensure they worked.

The servicing agent has failed to carry out this , as you have found out to your inconvenience.
Having your van serviced by a dealer "should" be enough to ensure a safe and roadworthy van, with everything working as it should.
Sadly it seems your choice of service agent was misplaced.

I would stongly suggest that in future you get a NCC Approved Mobile Workshop to do your servicing, where you can watch what is done and have any questions answered, so that you KNOW ithas been done thoroughly

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I got the van back from service on Saturday and there is a line on the schedule
CORNER STEADIES &SPARE WHEEL CARRIER -CHECK FOR DAMAGE ,OPERATION & LUBRICATE
There should be no need in my opinion to have to check this yourself if its ticked as having been done
Mine was not ticked it was crossed out as the carrier is in the garage and the spare is under the fixed bed but tyre pressure and tread depth were ticked as checked

 

[SteveW77]

It's the owners responsibility to ensure that his/ her vehicle is fit for the use.
You may well have a case to say that the servicing agent should have dealt with this on a routine service, but to go on the continent without checking such a basic thing was in my humble opinion foolhardy to say the least.
Steve W

So you expect every driver to go around car and caravan checking that every bolt or screw that may just need turning does so easily

Generally this forum seems to believe that wheel changing is a life threatening operation on one hand and only too be carried out by highly trained emergency service personnel and now Craig gets a virtual slap in the face as he isn't Mr Perfect as he expected the service agent to have done a thorough job during servicing. I would say it was doubtfull that the servicing mecahnic checked the spare wheel correctly.
I guess Craig should have also have gone over the caravan and wheels with his torque wrench when he collected it from the dealers servicing workshop or it would have been his fault if a wheel had dropped off 30 seconds up the road ;-)
A good percentage of drivers on the road can't undo wheel bolts or jack even up their cars and many that do often find that they can't remove the alloy wheels from the steel hub it's mated with. Does that also make their cars unfit for use?

Give the guy a break!

It is recommended that wheel bolts are re torqued after 50 miles, so in answer to your question, yes it would be his fault.
If you are prepared to risk your life and those of your family on a tick in a check box, that is your choice, it isn't mine.

Steve W

 

[WatsonJohnG]

It's the owners responsibility to ensure that his/ her vehicle is fit for the use.
You may well have a case to say that the servicing agent should have dealt with this on a routine service, but to go on the continent without checking such a basic thing was in my humble opinion foolhardy to say the least.
Steve W

So you expect every driver to go around car and caravan checking that every bolt or screw that may just need turning does so easily

Generally this forum seems to believe that wheel changing is a life threatening operation on one hand and only too be carried out by highly trained emergency service personnel and now Craig gets a virtual slap in the face as he isn't Mr Perfect as he expected the service agent to have done a thorough job during servicing. I would say it was doubtfull that the servicing mecahnic checked the spare wheel correctly.
I guess Craig should have also have gone over the caravan and wheels with his torque wrench when he collected it from the dealers servicing workshop or it would have been his fault if a wheel had dropped off 30 seconds up the road ;-)
A good percentage of drivers on the road can't undo wheel bolts or jack even up their cars and many that do often find that they can't remove the alloy wheels from the steel hub it's mated with. Does that also make their cars unfit for use?

Give the guy a break!

It is recommended that wheel bolts are re torqued after 50 miles, so in answer to your question, yes it would be his fault.
If you are prepared to risk your life and those of your family on a tick in a check box, that is your choice, it isn't mine.

Steve W

Sadly as age and infirmity encroach everyone isn't capable of doing a physical check and have to trust the "experts"

 

[Damian]

Quote " It is recommended that wheel bolts are re torqued after 50 miles,"

No it is not.
It is recommended that the torque is checked, not re torqued (unless they have come loose), otherwise you would have to keep doing it every 50 miles !

 

[SteveW77]

Quote " It is recommended that wheel bolts are re torqued after 50 miles,"

No it is not.
It is recommended that the torque is checked, not re torqued (unless they have come loose), otherwise you would have to keep doing it every 50 miles !

Yes you are right, that is what I meant to say.

 

[SteveW77]

It's the owners responsibility to ensure that his/ her vehicle is fit for the use.
You may well have a case to say that the servicing agent should have dealt with this on a routine service, but to go on the continent without checking such a basic thing was in my humble opinion foolhardy to say the least.
Steve W

So you expect every driver to go around car and caravan checking that every bolt or screw that may just need turning does so easily

Generally this forum seems to believe that wheel changing is a life threatening operation on one hand and only too be carried out by highly trained emergency service personnel and now Craig gets a virtual slap in the face as he isn't Mr Perfect as he expected the service agent to have done a thorough job during servicing. I would say it was doubtfull that the servicing mecahnic checked the spare wheel correctly.
I guess Craig should have also have gone over the caravan and wheels with his torque wrench when he collected it from the dealers servicing workshop or it would have been his fault if a wheel had dropped off 30 seconds up the road ;-)
A good percentage of drivers on the road can't undo wheel bolts or jack even up their cars and many that do often find that they can't remove the alloy wheels from the steel hub it's mated with. Does that also make their cars unfit for use?

Give the guy a break!

It is recommended that wheel bolts are re torqued after 50 miles, so in answer to your question, yes it would be his fault.
If you are prepared to risk your life and those of your family on a tick in a check box, that is your choice, it isn't mine.

Steve W

Sadly as age and infirmity encroach everyone isn't capable of doing a physical check and have to trust the "experts"

That may well be the case, but it does not negate your responsibilty.
f the spare wheel carrier fell off of your van, the law would not be interested in when it was last serviced, it would hold you solely responsible as the owner / operator. It is your responsiblity to make sure it is fit for use.
It may well not be your fault, but it is your responsibility.

Steve W

Steve W

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi Steve
I agree with what you are saying and so its all the more important that dealers do a good job of servicing as we are not all able to do it ourselves
My dealer at North Staffs Caravans is excellent and I trust them to do a good job and later today I will complete the Approved Workshop Scheme survey with very favourable comments
There is no danger of my spare wheel carrier dropping off unless its onto the bench in the garage

 

[Gybe]

When a car or caravan is serviced is it not supposed to be legal and have good legal tyres including the spare when it leaves the dealer?
I'd like to know how the spare wheel and tyre were checked correctly by the service mechanic if the carrier fixing were siezed. Making the assumption that Craig had recently had the caravan in for servicing it woud be very surprising if the fixings had siezed solid and the carrrier wouldn't come free
The issue isn't that Graig is at fault in any way here, the issue is did the service agent do the job they were paid to do.
A spare wheel carrier that can not be moved doesn't pose a danger when travelling and nor does it make the unit unfit for use on the road.
After all many cars don't even have a spare wheel and will be unable to travel if the tyre gets a large hole or damaged.
Can someone please explain how being unable to immediately fit the spare puts the driver at fault?
Moderator Damian's post also suggests that the service agent is at fault and suggestion made here would put a lot of drivers at risk who rely on others to maintain the road worthiness of vehicles or trailers.

 

[SteveW77]

When a car or caravan is serviced is it not supposed to be legal and have good legal tyres including the spare when it leaves the dealer?

The short answer to that is no.
The dealer or workshop has a legal responsibility but only for the work that they carried out, They have a legal duty to bring any faults to the attention of the owner / operator, but they can only advise. They cannot insist that work is carried out or refuse to release the vehicle.

As I have already said under the law the state of your vehicle is your responsibility.

 

[Raywood]

I disagree with Steve W on the legal position. You are required to make sure your vehicle is in a roadworthy condition but if you can show that it was serviced and the item concerned is part of that this is a good defence. Before you were prosecuted the maintanance would normaly be investigated and you would only be likely to be prosecuted if they could show neglect on your part.

 

[Surfer]

It's the owners responsibility to ensure that his/ her vehicle is fit for the use.
You may well have a case to say that the servicing agent should have dealt with this on a routine service, but to go on the continent without checking such a basic thing was in my humble opinion foolhardy to say the least.
Steve W

So you expect every driver to go around car and caravan checking that every bolt or screw that may just need turning does so easily

Generally this forum seems to believe that wheel changing is a life threatening operation on one hand and only too be carried out by highly trained emergency service personnel and now Craig gets a virtual slap in the face as he isn't Mr Perfect as he expected the service agent to have done a thorough job during servicing. I would say it was doubtfull that the servicing mecahnic checked the spare wheel correctly.
I guess Craig should have also have gone over the caravan and wheels with his torque wrench when he collected it from the dealers servicing workshop or it would have been his fault if a wheel had dropped off 30 seconds up the road ;-)
A good percentage of drivers on the road can't undo wheel bolts or jack even up their cars and many that do often find that they can't remove the alloy wheels from the steel hub it's mated with. Does that also make their cars unfit for use?

Give the guy a break!

It is recommended that wheel bolts are re torqued after 50 miles, so in answer to your question, yes it would be his fault.
If you are prepared to risk your life and those of your family on a tick in a check box, that is your choice, it isn't mine.

Steve W

Sadly as age and infirmity encroach everyone isn't capable of doing a physical check and have to trust the "experts"

That may well be the case, but it does not negate your responsibilty.
f the spare wheel carrier fell off of your van, the law would not be interested in when it was last serviced, it would hold you solely responsible as the owner / operator. It is your responsiblity to make sure it is fit for use.
It may well not be your fault, but it is your responsibility.

Steve W

Steve W

By the same token you probably would have very good grounds for compensation from the dealer that serviced your caravan as the servicing would be covered under Sale of Goods Act for starters.

 

[SteveW77]

It's the owners responsibility to ensure that his/ her vehicle is fit for the use.
You may well have a case to say that the servicing agent should have dealt with this on a routine service, but to go on the continent without checking such a basic thing was in my humble opinion foolhardy to say the least.
Steve W

So you expect every driver to go around car and caravan checking that every bolt or screw that may just need turning does so easily

Generally this forum seems to believe that wheel changing is a life threatening operation on one hand and only too be carried out by highly trained emergency service personnel and now Craig gets a virtual slap in the face as he isn't Mr Perfect as he expected the service agent to have done a thorough job during servicing. I would say it was doubtfull that the servicing mecahnic checked the spare wheel correctly.
I guess Craig should have also have gone over the caravan and wheels with his torque wrench when he collected it from the dealers servicing workshop or it would have been his fault if a wheel had dropped off 30 seconds up the road ;-)
A good percentage of drivers on the road can't undo wheel bolts or jack even up their cars and many that do often find that they can't remove the alloy wheels from the steel hub it's mated with. Does that also make their cars unfit for use?

Give the guy a break!

It is recommended that wheel bolts are re torqued after 50 miles, so in answer to your question, yes it would be his fault.
If you are prepared to risk your life and those of your family on a tick in a check box, that is your choice, it isn't mine.

Steve W

Sadly as age and infirmity encroach everyone isn't capable of doing a physical check and have to trust the "experts"

That may well be the case, but it does not negate your responsibilty.
f the spare wheel carrier fell off of your van, the law would not be interested in when it was last serviced, it would hold you solely responsible as the owner / operator. It is your responsiblity to make sure it is fit for use.
It may well not be your fault, but it is your responsibility.

Steve W

Steve W

By the same token you probably would have very good grounds for compensation from the dealer that serviced your caravan as the servicing would be covered under Sale of Goods Act for starters.

I was not talking of compensation or prosecution, all I was saying is that you are responsible for your vehicle

It would be almost impossible to prove that a dealer did not issue a verbal warning about the condition of the vehicle, in fact I would be very supprised if their invoice did not carry a disclaimer to cover such conditions.

As for the OPs original problem, I would not expect the seized carrier to be freed on a routine service, this could possibly entail a lengthy proccess, which without pre authorization could well end in a dispute over the cost of such a repair.

Steve W

 

[otherclive]

I now rarely stow the spare in the Alko carrier. When we went abroad I always took the spare out and carried it in the van as a safet precaution because otherwise you are pulling it out into the traffic flow. Now I always carry the spare in the van whatever as even in UK it makes for a quicker exchange should I get a flat. Some people find you cannot extract the spare because the van has dropped and they can't fit the jack to lift it either. So keeping it in the van suits me. On site it goes underneath chained to the chassis and hidden from view behind the awning.

 

[Damian]

Quote " I would not expect the seized carrier to be freed on a routine service, "

You are wrong on this point.
During the service the spare wheel should be removed and the tyre checked for cracking, splits, pressure, tyre depth etc and the carrier MUST be in working order.
If it is seized then the service agent MUST sort it out otherwise the wheel cannot be checked.
You are paying for a service and the carrier forms part of the service.
There is , as has been pointe dout a specific part of the schedule: CORNER STEADIES &SPARE WHEEL CARRIER -CHECK FOR DAMAGE ,OPERATION & LUBRICATE"
If the carrier is seized, there is no point in lubricating it before it has been freed !

Verbal warnings are not permitted, any remedial work required MUST be written down and if of a danger to the user, signed for as having been explained and understood

 

[SteveW77]

Quote " I would not expect the seized carrier to be freed on a routine service, "

You are wrong on this point.
During the service the spare wheel should be removed and the tyre checked for cracking, splits, pressure, tyre depth etc and the carrier MUST be in working order.
If it is seized then the service agent MUST sort it out otherwise the wheel cannot be checked.
You are paying for a service and the carrier forms part of the service.

There is , as has been pointe dout a specific part of the schedule: CORNER STEADIES &SPARE WHEEL CARRIER -CHECK FOR DAMAGE ,OPERATION & LUBRICATE"
If the carrier is seized, there is no point in lubricating it before it has been freed !

Verbal warnings are not permitted, any remedial work required MUST be written down and if of a danger to the user, signed for as having been explained and understood

So you would undertake all this extra work without being paid for it would you?
I for one would be unhappy to be presented with bill for £35--£50 more than I agreed to pay for the service.

Steve W

 

[Damian]

Quote " So you would undertake all this extra work without being paid for it would you?"

Its NOT extra work, it is part of the service which you are paying for.
The only "Extra" works are things like blown light bulbs, gas hoses, and some charge for one shot nuts.
Appliance servicing (IE Stripping and replacing parts) is extra, but that is only after agreement with the owner.

Any costly additional work is also only after agreement of the owner.
NO extra work should be undertaken without the owners consent, so you should NEVER be presented with a bill you are not expecting.

In my case I quote a "Fully Inclusive" service charge to include all normal service items , which in the case of this topic would include making the carrier workable, even if it did take a while longer....thats the way it is, some you win and are quick,relatively speaking, some take a while longer.

 

[Gybe]

So you would undertake all this extra work without being paid for it would you?
I for one would be unhappy to be presented with bill for £35--£50 more than I agreed to pay for the service.
Steve W

Steve W , do you live in the UK as you seem too come frome a different world from the rest of us.
When a vehicle goes in for service, spare wheel and tyre checking should be included in the service schedule and costs as Damian pointed out.
All drivers of our works vehicles must carry out daily checks of the vehicle being driven and and trailer's towed.We even keep electronic records that we have completed checks as it helps with the companies insurance bill. But nothing in our training or H&S sessions suggests that we must check for siezed bolts and no one has ever suggested that we are responsible for work that has been carried out by dealers. We've actually had the reverse scenario where dealers have paid sizeable bills for problems caused and time lost because of poor workmanship.
I don't believe that a caravan is seen differently to a commercial trailer.

 

[SteveW77]

All drivers of our works vehicles must carry out daily checks of the vehicle being driven and and trailer's towed

Exactly, are you going to tell me that they never check the spare tyre pressures.
If the OP carried out these checks every time he/she used their van, they would not have found the themselves in the position they did.
I remove the spare carrier and fit it the other way round when I travel on the continent,so I don't have to remove the wheel in the slow lane of their motorways. I do not leave the spare tyre pressure check to be done once a year when it is serviced, I check it every time I take the van out the same as I check all the wheel bolts.

Steve W

 

[anotherDavid]

Since I do almost all of my caravanning on the continent one of the first things I did on my new van was to reverse the spare wheel carrier to avoid working out in the road retrieving the spare. On a brand new van I had the greatest of difficulty not only removing the securing nut that holds the spare in the cradle but the further bolt that passes through one of the wheel holes. These had been tightened to such a degree that I had to resort to consideralbe brute force to slack them off. I am only glad I was not doing this at the side of the road. I as a retired mechanical engineer am well aware of torque settings and the principles behind them and this was totally unnecesary. I have not replaced the additonal bolt at all since the large central wingnut is more than sufficient to locate the wheel in the cradle. As regards checking the spare wheel pressure every journey I carry an inflator and would consider putting an extra few pounds in after changing a wheel the least of my problems.
After all this I still think the Alko carrier is rubish and totally unfit for purpose but I dont have room in the gas locker for a spare with this van.
David

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

All drivers of our works vehicles must carry out daily checks of the vehicle being driven and and trailer's towed

Exactly, are you going to tell me that they never check the spare tyre pressures.
If the OP carried out these checks every time he/she used their van, they would not have found the themselves in the position they did.
Steve W

hi all, in essence what Steve W writes is correct, however life's not that simple is it!!
as an ex delivery driver, we had to do the very same checks on a daily basis, at the start of the shift and fill in the check sheet, engine oil, water, lights, body damage, horn, fixtures and fittings, everthing inc washer bottle level, but wheels and tyres were visual inspection only, as the maintenance dept took care of that, there were no means of checking the tyre pressures or spare and no tools provided to check them or even change the wheel just a number for the national tyre call out services,
in private life things are a little more straight forward yes as the driver you must be aware of the vehicle condition but some things are left to the proffesionals on a service and MOT.
by all means check the oil, water, lights, and tyres, on a daily or weekly basis but every time before you turn the ignition key!!! not realistic is it?
in the case of the OP the spare wheel and carrier SHOULD have been checked on the service not at the side of the road before a journey, the time to check would have been after the van was returned from the service if the owner has the technical skill and knowhow to check it not all owners have, Damians point on this is correct.
by the way my ALKO carrier went into a skip one month after buying the van totally useless piece of scrap. IMO

 

[Themass31]

Lesson learnt from my experience the spare wheel is now located in the front locker adds to the nose weight but a hell of a lot easier to check and change, disappointed that BL didn't even reply to me considering this is the second van off them and over 10 yrs of my servicing business .
craig.