Speed limits in France

[DavenGill1]

Hi all, we are off to France next week for our first caravan holiday in Europe. I have been reading up on the speed limits as to what speed I can pull the caravan and believe it is down to the weight of the car and what it is capable of pulling and not the combined weight of car and van.
I drive an Audi A4 auto and the caravan is a 2005 Bailey Pageant Champagne.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[RogerL]

AFAIK, it's the combined MAMs of car and caravan that need to be under 3500kg to tow at France's higher limits - but the obtuse way the French do everything it could be different.

 

[Sproket]

Have you had a look at your log book ... All the info should be there to help you calculate your max train weight

{ F.1} Max. permissible mass ( max weight of car when fully loaded )

{ O } Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer:

{ O.1} braked (kg) (max allowed towable weight)

{ O.2} unbraked (kg)

 

[NigelHutson]

It is the actual combined mass of the car and caravan that matters.

Under 3500 kg you can tow at 90 kph (single carriageway road), 110 kph (dual-carriageway) or 130 kph (motorway) unless it's poor weather conditions when 80, 100 and 110 limits apply.

Over 3500 kg, the limits for the same roads are 80 kph, 90 kph and 90 kph.

 

[TrevorM]

Hi. I looked into this before going to France this year and was surprised by the French regulations (as I understand them - I am sure someone will correct me if I have misunderstood them.)
It seems speed limits are determined not by actual towing combination weights, but by the maximum Gross Train Weight permitted for the towing vehicle. To me this defies logic as it means a lightweight caravan / trailer towed by a small vehicle could have a higher permitted maximum speed than a larger vehicle towing the same trailer.
Having re-read Sprocket's and RogerL's posts, I now see they also suggest it is maximum weights not actual ones which matter.

Enjoy your holidays.
Trev M.

 

[RogerL]

Plated weights are used throughout Europe to enforce legislation of this type - so that police only have to do basic arithmetic on the plated figures, no need for a weighbridge.

Of course, overloading can only be dealt with by weighing.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is the actual combined mass of the car and caravan that matters.

Under 3500 kg you can tow at 90 kph (single carriageway road), 110 kph (dual-carriageway) or 130 kph (motorway) unless it's poor weather conditions when 80, 100 and 110 limits apply.

Over 3500 kg, the limits for the same roads are 80 kph, 90 kph and 90 kph.

Hello Nigel,

Your answer seems out of kilter with everyone else. I don't tow abroad so i have never looked into the details, but I am aware that other EU countries seem to enforce towing regs more ruthlessly than the good old UK, so getting it right is even more important when travelling abroad.

It might be helpful if you could support your answer with sources.

 

[DeliDave_]

I looked into it about the sticker business and thought it was the plated weights,if it was actual weights they would have to weigh each unit they pulled to check.

 

[Craigyoung]

We came back last week after 2ooo miles towing through France for our first time , a real eye opener , you'll not want to go much quicker than your allowed the way the French drive ! But good luck at someone letting you out for an overtake as I found out ! Enjoy your holidays .

 

[DavenGill1]

Thank you for all your replies. Roll on Thursday.

 

[Gafferbill]

........nobody has mentioned that you may encounter sections of road in France with a specific lower speed limit for towing vehicles. These will be marked with a sign showing a car towing a caravan and the limit that applies.
These road sections have been identified as dangerous usually because of long steep declines or the possibility of strong crosswinds.

Have an enjoyable safe first trip

 

[NigelHutson]

My apologies to you all!

It is the PLATED masses that count, not the ACTUAL mass! That's where the UK is certainly out of kilter with the rest of Europe, when there are variances as to whether it's actual masses or plated masses that count (speaking from experience in a previous life!).

Having said that, even if my car/caravan combination was under the 3500 kgs, I'd still probably err towards the lower limits anyway. You're on holiday, so what's the rush. Any idiot can put foot to the floor, but higher speeds are likely to spell more trouble if a problem occurs.

From experience at the Tow Car Awards, there are some popular tow cars that have been tested under ideal test track conditions. A few have had quite serious stability issues at only slightly over 60 mph (c.100 kph). Up to that point they were fine, but on perfectly straight roads (without any other vehicles) at just above 60/65 the caravans started to wave about, and bearing in mind that 130 kph equates to 80 mph...............

 

[RogerL]

That's where the UK is certainly out of kilter with the rest of Europe

???

Apart from overloading issues, the UK uses plated weights, not actual weights, for driver and speed limit legislation.

 

[SteveW77]

We came back last week after 2ooo miles towing through France for our first time , a real eye opener , you'll not want to go much quicker than your allowed the way the French drive ! But good luck at someone letting you out for an overtake as I found out ! Enjoy your holidays .

Your observations on French drivers seem to totally at odds with my experiences over the last 12 yrs of driving in France. There road system is generally in a better state than those of this country and lane discipline is far better.
I look forward to my bi-annual trips though France, very relaxing compared to the bun fight that takes place on the M25 every day.

 

[SteveW77]

My apologies to you all!

It is the PLATED masses that count, not the ACTUAL mass! That's where the UK is certainly out of kilter with the rest of Europe, when there are variances as to whether it's actual masses or plated masses that count (speaking from experience in a previous life!).

Having said that, even if my car/caravan combination was under the 3500 kgs, I'd still probably err towards the lower limits anyway. You're on holiday, so what's the rush. Any idiot can put foot to the floor, but higher speeds are likely to spell more trouble if a problem occurs.

From experience at the Tow Car Awards, there are some popular tow cars that have been tested under ideal test track conditions. A few have had quite serious stability issues at only slightly over 60 mph (c.100 kph). Up to that point they were fine, but on perfectly straight roads (without any other vehicles) at just above 60/65 the caravans started to wave about, and bearing in mind that 130 kph equates to 80 mph...............

Using that criteria, you could say that 30mph is a better overall towing speed. If you want to poodle your way to the bottom of Italy or the Spanish costas feel free.
As for me I will use my many years of towing experience and make the best possible safe speed that the law allows.

 

[NigelHutson]

Yes, 30 mph would be safer Steve, of that there can be no argument if everyone did the 30 mph, but common sense prevails! The point that I'm making is that 60 mph is probably safer (slower speed, more time to react if necessary - especially bearing in mind that the average reaction time is between 1 and 2 seconds in the real world (Johansen 1977), impact at lower speed if that should occur) than 80, especially with a caravan in tow.

Personally, I think that the law in France is pretty stupid, given tha in my case, I have a tow car (and previous winner of the TCA which I bought following the testing) which weighs in at around the 2,700 kg towing a caravan grossed at 1500 kg. Surely that would be much safer at higher speeds than a Focus sized car towing its maximum and yet under the 3500 kg limit. However, I am restricted to 90 kph, so be it. I would probably tow at between 60 mph and 65 mph if allowed, but I'm not, so quite happy c.56 mph. I still get there, and probably not much after someone who travels at the higher permitted speed, and certainly more relaxed.

There are always certain individuals who regard speed limits as targets and not limits, just as there are those who have a higher perceived ability in their driving skills than actual ability. I used to measure them up on a regular basis! Certainly for a first time tower, I would suggest erring on the side of caution, wouldn't you?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Apart from overloading issues, the UK uses plated weights, not actual weights, for driver and speed limit legislation.

Hello Roger,

The drivers licence categoryB wording as shown on the Govt web site is rather ambiguous at the moment.

Quote, (https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories)
Category B

You can drive vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) with up to 8 passenger seats (with a trailer up to 750kg).

You can also tow heavier trailers if the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.
End Quote

Where as the first part refers to MAM (which is a limit) the second part only refers to the total weight ( which by its wording suggest its a measured weight) Taken at face value it implies it might be possible to tow a trailer wither an MAM that exceeds the combinations 3500Kg limit provide the trailer is empty or part loaded and the combination does weigh less than 3500.

This deviates from the established conventions of relating categories to plated weight values (MAM's). It is well established in the HGV and PSV sections where you can only drive the vehicle if you licence covers the MAM. The convention supports the principle of that you cannot drive a vehicle where its MAM exceeds your licence entitlement, even if its actual weight falls within the stated limit.

I am currently trying to find the Govt department that accepts responsibility for the content of the web site, so the details can be checked, ......... Every dept contacted so far denies responsibility, and the Is there something wrong box, never seems to elicit a reply.

 

[RogerL]

Websites aren't law - even if they're www.gov.uk ones.

B-only licences restrict the driver to a towed outfit of 3500 kg combined MAM - no debate!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Websites aren't law - even if they're www.gov.uk ones.

B-only licences restrict the driver to a towed outfit of 3500 kg combined MAM - no debate!

Hello Roger

I totally agree web sites are not the letter of the law, however in this case this is about the only available source of information for most people.

In 2013 the regulations were changed, and the wording of the EU DIRECTIVE 2006/126/EC states:-

(b) Category B:
motor vehicles with a maximum authorised mass not exceeding 3 500 kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver; motor vehicles in this category may be combined with a trailer having a maximum authorised mass which does not exceed 750 kg.Without prejudice to the provisions of type-approval rules for the vehicles concerned, motor vehicles in this category may be
combined with a trailer with a maximum authorised mass exceeding 750 kg, provided that the maximum authorised mass of this combination does not exceed 4 250 kg. In case such a
combination exceeds 3 500 kg, M

This is definitely at odds with current UK Govt web site which fails to indicate the final limit is the WEIGHT of the out fit rather than the directives COMBINED MAM.

 

[DeliDave_]

Yes, 30 mph would be safer Steve, of that there can be no argument if everyone did the 30 mph, but common sense prevails! The point that I'm making is that 60 mph is probably safer (slower speed, more time to react if necessary - especially bearing in mind that the average reaction time is between 1 and 2 seconds in the real world (Johansen 1977), impact at lower speed if that should occur) than 80, especially with a caravan in tow.

Personally, I think that the law in France is pretty stupid, given tha in my case, I have a tow car (and previous winner of the TCA which I bought following the testing) which weighs in at around the 2,700 kg towing a caravan grossed at 1500 kg. Surely that would be much safer at higher speeds than a Focus sized car towing its maximum and yet under the 3500 kg limit. However, I am restricted to 90 kph, so be it. I would probably tow at between 60 mph and 65 mph if allowed, but I'm not, so quite happy c.56 mph. I still get there, and probably not much after someone who travels at the higher permitted speed, and certainly more relaxed.

There are always certain individuals who regard speed limits as targets and not limits, just as there are those who have a higher perceived ability in their driving skills than actual ability. I used to measure them up on a regular basis! Certainly for a first time tower, I would suggest erring on the side of caution, wouldn't you?

Excellent advice

 

[Gafferbill]

The quote from the gov.uk website is perfectly clear but to put it in plain English..........

You can drive vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) with up to 8 passenger seats (with a trailer up to 750kg).

This means a B licence holder can drive vehicles up to 3,500kgs MAM and that vehicle can have up to 8 seats and can tow a trailer up to 750kgs.
The gross train weight of that vehicle and trailer can be up to 4250kgs.

They can also tow heavier trailers if the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.

This means a B licence holder who wants to tow a trailer heavier than 750kgs is restricted to a gross train weight of 3500kgs.

B licence holders who passed their driving test before January 1st 1997 have different entitlements.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The quote from the gov.uk website is perfectly clear but to put it in plain English..........

You can drive vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) with up to 8 passenger seats (with a trailer up to 750kg).

This means a B licence holder can drive vehicles up to 3,500kgs MAM and that vehicle can have up to 8 seats and can tow a trailer up to 750kgs.
The gross train weight of that vehicle and trailer can be up to 4250kgs.

They can also tow heavier trailers if the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.

This means a B licence holder who wants to tow a trailer heavier than 750kgs is restricted to a gross train weight of 3500kgs.

B licence holders who passed their driving test before January 1st 1997 have different entitlements.

Hello Gaffer,
The key difference is in your second blue quote. "If the total weight" This does not refer to the MAM. The actual part loaded weight of an out fit may be less than the 3500kg licence limit but the combined MAM's may be greater than the limit.

The EU directive continuously refers to the Combined Maximum Authorised Masses, not the measured weight which is implied in the UK Govs Web Site.

The EU Directive is obligatory on all assigned member states, so the UK web page wording is non compliant by referring to' weight' rather than ' MAM's', and could lead to a Cat B caravanner not be licenced to drive their outfit, which is real weight less than 3500Kg but has the combined mechanical capacity to be over 3500Kg.

 

[DavenGill1]

Good afternoon all, this topic seems to have gone off at a different angle, I do not have a problem with my licence, I passed my test many years ago. I am guessing from all the replies (thank you all for taking the time) if I stay at and around 60mph on there motorways I will not have a problem?

Many thanks

 

[RogerL]

Good afternoon all, this topic seems to have gone off at a different angle, I do not have a problem with my licence, I passed my test many years ago. I am guessing from all the replies (thank you all for taking the time) if I stay at and around 60mph on there motorways I will not have a problem?

Many thanks

With a larger outfit, ie over 3500kg combined MAM, the French towing limit is 56mph on motorways

 

[DavenGill1]

Thank you RogerL.