I was driving my other car, (not the tow car), on the M6 toll today. The car is a hot hatch which is like a sports car to drive and even so I felt the cross wind on the exposed parts of the toll. I gradually came up on 2 different caravans and noticed how long it took me to catch them. Tucking in behind each I was doing 64 mph behind one and 68mph behind the other!!!!!! One was and Eldiss towed by a Hyundai x35. I noticed detail because the van was very nose down. I was amazed at how fast they were towing, never mind with the cross wind. A word of warning- the police catch many speeding on the toll and they have purges with plain cars.
Speeding on M6 toll
- Thread starter waffler
- Start date
- Mar 14, 2005
- 18,683
- 3,940
- 50,935
Fortunately, there was an item on the Birmingham local news yesterday about the council introducing average speed cameras in parts of the city. I for one welcome them as they get round the practice of vehicles just slowing as they approach a camera then speeding up again.
Although not on the toll road, I travel on the M6 daily. Its not just caravans that break the speed limit, I regularly see trailers being towed at 70mph+ with little regard for safety let alone the law.
I'm not sure average speed camera's are smart enough to tell the difference between cars and other traffic when used on stretched not restricted to 50mph
I'm not sure average speed camera's are smart enough to tell the difference between cars and other traffic when used on stretched not restricted to 50mph
I've been towing a caravan for nearly 12 months now ( previously it was boat trailers ) I.ve been up and down M6/ M5,M42, M4 and have only been passed a handful of times by other rigs . I normally tow at an indicated 60-65 mph , that equates to about a true 56 -60 mph on the GPS when towing past HGV I speed up 5 mph . Where are all these Speeding caravans weaving side to side ?Raywood said:
Off topic I know but just a reminder if you are a Caravan Club member the van goes free on the M6 Toll road
I rode a motorbike in plenty of crosswinds , the faster you go less effect the wind has ... Its about apparent wind , as you increase speed the apparent wind moves forward ( look at sails on a catamaran ) Laws of Physics and all that . 64mph is only just over the limit its hardly dangerous particularly when you correct the speedo to true speed as the Police use . Hot hatches I've driven are nearly always effected by side winds more so than less stiffly suspended cars with moderate sidewall aspect ratios . Government has been looking into increasing speedlimits on motorways to 80mph for years (+10% speedo error +1mph ) mind you traffic will put the mockers on that one .waffler said:
Waffler, how do you know your speedo is that accurate? My speedo showing 65 is only 61 on the sat nav.
I'm not condoning speeding in any form, but the guy doing (your claimed) 64 may well have only been showing 60.
And isn't there a proverb that says something about sin and first stone? -)
I'm not condoning speeding in any form, but the guy doing (your claimed) 64 may well have only been showing 60.
And isn't there a proverb that says something about sin and first stone? -)
- Mar 14, 2005
- 18,683
- 3,940
- 50,935
Construction and Use regulations only allow vehicle speedometers to be designed, constructed and tested to show a actual speed or slightly faster. Conventional gearbox sensors have to be constructed to allow for changes in road wheel diameter corresponding to the tyre wear. With tyre at maximum diameter (i.e. new) the indicated speed must not be less than the vehicle actual speed.
There is a common misconception that there is a relaxation of speed limits to the limit +10% + 1mph, This is a fallacy, and it comes about because in times gone by there were several cases where the accused brought into question the accuracy of measuring devices used to bring the prosecution. Failed prosecutions don't look good on a forces record so APCO (the Association of Chief Police Officers) made a suggestion to only go for prosecution when the recorded speed was in excess of 10% +1 mph of the speed limit in force. This effectively negated any dispute about the records integrity and guaranteed prosecution.
That was only a recommendation to police forces, and it is up to the individual force to decide it it adopts it universally of only selectively.
The law its self gives no latitude and provided there is strong enough evidence speeding by as little as 1 MPH can be prosecuted.
A few years ago I believe there there was a CPO in Wales who pronounced a zero tolerance on speeding.
More recently the Gatso manufacturers announced speed cameras that could be guaranteed to be calibrated to an accuracy of better than 1mph.
This is why cruise control is so useful.
There is a common misconception that there is a relaxation of speed limits to the limit +10% + 1mph, This is a fallacy, and it comes about because in times gone by there were several cases where the accused brought into question the accuracy of measuring devices used to bring the prosecution. Failed prosecutions don't look good on a forces record so APCO (the Association of Chief Police Officers) made a suggestion to only go for prosecution when the recorded speed was in excess of 10% +1 mph of the speed limit in force. This effectively negated any dispute about the records integrity and guaranteed prosecution.
That was only a recommendation to police forces, and it is up to the individual force to decide it it adopts it universally of only selectively.
The law its self gives no latitude and provided there is strong enough evidence speeding by as little as 1 MPH can be prosecuted.
A few years ago I believe there there was a CPO in Wales who pronounced a zero tolerance on speeding.
More recently the Gatso manufacturers announced speed cameras that could be guaranteed to be calibrated to an accuracy of better than 1mph.
This is why cruise control is so useful.
- Nov 8, 2015
- 126
- 5
- 10,585
ACPO guidelines actually advise that enforcement be considered at 10% + 3MPH over the speed limit......been this for years with the exception you quote for North Wales (when they had the crazy Chief Con).....see point 9.6 here
https://www.cambs.police.uk/roadsafety/docs/201305-uoba-joining-forces-safer-roads.pdf
https://www.cambs.police.uk/roadsafety/docs/201305-uoba-joining-forces-safer-roads.pdf
https://www.cambs.police.uk/roadsafety/docs/201305-uoba-joining-forces-safer-roads.pdf[/quote00buzz said:
00buzz ... I lived through that era ,has he gone now ? Used tow my boat from Macclesfield to Treaddur Bay . Loads of people got done (I didn't ) . That was a really interesting PDF .I thought I was going to get blasted for my comments . But I always like to think its the style or lack of it that attracts you to the men in blue . For instance overtaking them at an indicated 80mph and jamming my brakes on when I spot the unmarked car, that's dangerous ,not me breaking the law at 74mph ,.
On a point of interest to Caravaners Trailers ,boat trailers single axle twin axles all tow brilliant and stable .unlike caravans and if you can see the trailer easy to reverse .
That was actually a myth about a zero tolerance in North Wales he said their should be zero tolerance on speeding but it never happened, I would have known about it if it did driving the A55 many times a week between our three work sites. And yes he has long gone.
But on the same point one thing to be aware of is is North Wales Police run some unusual unmarked cars, see someone the other day pulled up by a twin cab pickup truck with blue lights behind the griletcl!
But on the same point one thing to be aware of is is North Wales Police run some unusual unmarked cars, see someone the other day pulled up by a twin cab pickup truck with blue lights behind the griletcl!
- Mar 14, 2005
- 18,683
- 3,940
- 50,935
Thank you 00buz,
I had not seen the document previously, and I got the number of mph wrong. However the point I made is stlll entirely valid. The APCO document are only guidelines, and have no status in LAW. For example if a driver were summonsed for alleged speeding, and the figures used fell outside of the guidelines, a claim for mitigation could not use the guidelines as a definitive defence.
Hello Martin
You write:
"On a point of interest to Caravaners Trailers ,boat trailers single axle twin axles all tow brilliant and stable .unlike caravans and if you can see the trailer easy to reverse ."
Are you claiming that is always the case ? because if so that,s untrue. I have seen the results of badly matched towing outfits that have resulted in loss of stability with quite spectacular results involving garden trailers, boats and camping trailers as well as caravans. To be fair some may have been the results of trailers brakes not being maintained properly, and some may be down to poor driving, but in essence no trailer can be considered inherently safe.
I had not seen the document previously, and I got the number of mph wrong. However the point I made is stlll entirely valid. The APCO document are only guidelines, and have no status in LAW. For example if a driver were summonsed for alleged speeding, and the figures used fell outside of the guidelines, a claim for mitigation could not use the guidelines as a definitive defence.
Hello Martin
You write:
"On a point of interest to Caravaners Trailers ,boat trailers single axle twin axles all tow brilliant and stable .unlike caravans and if you can see the trailer easy to reverse ."
Are you claiming that is always the case ? because if so that,s untrue. I have seen the results of badly matched towing outfits that have resulted in loss of stability with quite spectacular results involving garden trailers, boats and camping trailers as well as caravans. To be fair some may have been the results of trailers brakes not being maintained properly, and some may be down to poor driving, but in essence no trailer can be considered inherently safe.
I don't worry anymore because I stay within the speed limits . My brother lives at Llandudno and he says the police presence is quite heavy with their .... Road Safety Vans ... always in areas that drop from 50 to 30 mph when some drivers are slowing . Its 20 years since I traveled on a Friday night to our static when I was in a hurry and hoping that 70 mph was very flexible .Mogwyth said:
Hi Prof. As a generalisation I stick by my statement . Can I ask you how many garden trailers have you seen that have caused accidents ? What is a badly matched towing outfit . Where are you obtaining all your statics from ? or are you basing it on personal observations . You are right about any trailer being inherently unsafe ,they are. but so are pushbikes and any other vehicle come to that . I must admit I'm curious as to what led to all those caravans that have turned over on the motorway Perhaps we she all be made aware to what has caused all these caravan calamities . Facts not just opinions pleaseProfJohnL said:
- May 7, 2012
- 8,596
- 1,818
- 30,935
Last year I followed a twin axle Lunar down the M6. He was moving from side to side despite not exceeding 60 and having a decent tow car. I can only assume that was loaded very badly but certainly the problem was so acute I stayed behind him as overtaking looked potentially dangerous.
I have previously seen a Hobby twin axle fly past at what was probably over 70. He lost it passing a row of lorries and I am still baffled as to how he did recover it. What amazed me was that even after almost writing off a very expensive caravan he was off again doing the same thing.
I normally drive at just below 60 on the motorway when towing but we are regularly overtaken by other caravans many swaying to a greater or lesser extent.
For those who think a small amount above the speed limit is safe my sister was caught for doing 31 in a 30 area.l
I have previously seen a Hobby twin axle fly past at what was probably over 70. He lost it passing a row of lorries and I am still baffled as to how he did recover it. What amazed me was that even after almost writing off a very expensive caravan he was off again doing the same thing.
I normally drive at just below 60 on the motorway when towing but we are regularly overtaken by other caravans many swaying to a greater or lesser extent.
For those who think a small amount above the speed limit is safe my sister was caught for doing 31 in a 30 area.l
- Mar 14, 2005
- 18,683
- 3,940
- 50,935
martindf3 said:
As a fact, I have seen three cars damaged when the driver lost control when towing garden trailers, and one of them was my Brother in Law. I have witnessed a camping trailer go awol when following it on the motorway. I have also seen plenty of camping and dingy trailers jumping all over the road, A jackknifed a Motor cruiser, and more than a fair share of caravans in a mess on the roads. Not to mention the traffic reports and newsreels of such events.
I quite agree that all forms of transport have potential risks, more often than not it's down to the way they are driven, but add any sort of trailer into the mix and the potential risks rises dramatically.
Fact what has causes all those overturned caravans is the inability of the driver to control what ever situation has arisen, and speed. - Note I have not said speeding though that is often factor.
As for "facts not opinions", then what is :
"On a point of interest to Caravaners Trailers ,boat trailers single axle twin axles all tow brilliant and stable .unlike caravans and if you can see the trailer easy to reverse ."?
- May 7, 2012
- 8,596
- 1,818
- 30,935
Not having towed anything other than a caravan on the motorway or a dual carriageway I cannot comment from personal experience how other things tow. A major problem with caravans though is the large slab sides which are clearly more prone to being caught by the wind but as for other problems I would have thought there was very little difference.
The main problems when towing seem to me
1. Excessive weight of the trailer compared with the tow car or poor loading both of which cause instability,
2. Side winds and bow waves from passing traffic
3.Excessive speed for the combination
4. Mechanical failure or tyre failures
Accidents are often a combination of any of the first three and are usually preventable if the proper care is taken, but the fourth can happen to anyone although good maintanence is the best defence to this.
The main problems when towing seem to me
1. Excessive weight of the trailer compared with the tow car or poor loading both of which cause instability,
2. Side winds and bow waves from passing traffic
3.Excessive speed for the combination
4. Mechanical failure or tyre failures
Accidents are often a combination of any of the first three and are usually preventable if the proper care is taken, but the fourth can happen to anyone although good maintanence is the best defence to this.
I have to say Prof , It is a fact that I haven't seen any real accidents caused by trailers and they are a lot easier to pull than a caravan and reverse .I feel its very unfortunate that you have witnessed so many incidents.ProfJohnL said:
So what did you brother in law do to lose control of his garden trailer ?
- Mar 14, 2005
- 18,683
- 3,940
- 50,935
martindf3 said:
I have witnessed these incidents they were not accidents as there was a human cause. I still can't agree with your universal statement. All trailers present a challenge to a driver. Some cope admirably and a few have grave difficulties, for a variety of reasons. As for reversing, the bigger the distance between the hitch and caravan wheels, the slower the caravan responds to turning when reversing. so they're easier to correct. Smaller trailers can start to go off course far more quickly and thus tend to cause more problems especially for novices. Granted you can see around small trailers more easily than a caravan which should be an advantage, but not everyone has the innate ability to reverse trailers.
- May 7, 2012
- 8,596
- 1,818
- 30,935
I have not seen any actual accidents involving trailers but have had to deal with a few and caravans do seem to be more of a problem than other trailers. Caravans too heavy for the tow car do feature but it is difficult to be sure if bad loading is a factor after the contents are deposited all over the road. Speed is probably a contributory factor but getting the real speed from the driver is difficult and you have to rely on witness evidence which is subjective.
Only come across one incident with a boat trailer but that was a very old trailer and an old and worn B&B hitch came off an ALKO tow ball. That one was probably a one off but is a point to watch with very old trailers.
Only come across one incident with a boat trailer but that was a very old trailer and an old and worn B&B hitch came off an ALKO tow ball. That one was probably a one off but is a point to watch with very old trailers.
Facebook
Twitter