speeding towers

[DomDom]

To be honest, I see all sorts of outfits speeding past me quite regularly. It's scary sometimes seeing the swaying movement and knowing they're only 2 or 3 mph from a snake. Even our outfit is not smooth over about 62 and that's a 2007 Range Rover Vogue pulling a TA Elddis Crusader.

Mind you, I am convinced that a lot of it is to do with the BPW chassis which is vastly more sensitive to loading that our old van with an AL-KO chassis ever was. Even so, with near perfect hitch weight, about 100 kilos under the MTPLM and not loading heavy stuff up high it just seems to want to wander more so I tend to stick with the lorries at about 55 ish. Worth noting with fuel prices the way they are, at 60 we get about 18MPG but at 55 it's more like 23MPG.

Just come back from Lincolnshire, mostly A roads at 45-50 and got 25MPG. Mind you, massive credit to Lincolnshire County Council highways department. Considering how flat the ground is to start with, it's a phenomenal achievement to get the roads as bumpy as they seem to have managed. Respect indeed. Definitely a case of speeding breaks stuff in Lincs.

The bottom line is that it is a limit, not a target. I don't feel the need to rush when I'm on holidays, never have and never will. It's also nice to arrive with all the crocks in one piece as well Not to mention a can of beer which is safe to open without fear of froth all over the place.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Phil,

I question your response to the down hill slide issue.

"Once the wheels are turning ( faster than the rate of slide)"

Maximum directional control occurs when the tyre and road speed match. The level of grip and thus control diminishes as the speed difference increases, either positively or negatively.

If as you suggest you accelerate the wheels such that they turn X% faster than the rate of travel, you would have the same level of grip as if the wheels were turning at minus x%. so there is no benefit having the wheels turning faster

The only benefit of accelerating the wheels would be to get them up to speed quicker than simply allowing them to gather speed by free-wheeling. The danger of artificially accelerating the wheels is that you don't accelerate all the wheels, and that you may quite likely over accelerate them and exacerbate what is already a dangerous situation.

 

[602]

Hi,

I understand that the off-road fraternity sometimes lose traction when descending a steep slppery slope. The solution is to release the brakes, so the steering wheels regain traction (I can do that). Wheels still slipping? Apply a little throttle to get front wheels turning at same speed as the car is moving ( I think I can do that). Still sliding? Change up a gear (now we are getting silly).

Didn't I read somewhere, that if you lose control on a slippy surface, you should dip the clutch and keep off the brakes?

One day, my wife was driving down a narrow winding country lane in her Reliant Sabre 6GT (there's posh) when we met a double decker coming round a bend towards us, leaning like a Citroen 2CV on steroids. Wife steered towards verge, stamped on brakes. Wheels locked, car continued in straight line.
"Get you foot off the brake!" I suggested in a calm, manly way.
"I caaaaaaaan't!" she squeaked the way little women do ...... as we plunged into the hedge.
By the time the bus driver had stopped, and the driver was halfway down from his cab, she had reversed out of the hedge, and we were departing the scene.
Years later,she was invited to a "jolly" at the Hendon police driving school. She enjoyed the skid-pan, but when invited to drive straight at an object, provoke a skid, then lift off .... she decline, saying she knew from experience that she couldn't do it.
Er .... please do not draw her attention to this mail.

602

 

[Philspadders]

Prof, if the wheels are not turning you are sliding. if the wheels are turning at less than the rate of slide you are still sliding. The wheels need to be at or above the rate of slide to regain control. seemples dynamics, i can do the math if you want.

Try it your way it will fail. Do it my way, the tried , tested and proven way and you will succeed.

 

[TimM]

Er unfortunately no, from personal experience you won't necessarily succeed. It depends on what the conditions are. Confession time....
We live at the top of a reasonably steep hill, which is not gritted when it is icy. One morning several years ago there had been some snowfall and my wife and I needed to go to our separate places of work. We set off in our beaten up old series Landrover to check out the conditions and found that the hill was reasonably manageable. We went back up the top again. "Don't worry, you take the Landrover to work. I will take your car down slowly" I said (Rover 220 Coupe). I duly set off. As soon as I went over the brow of the hill I knew I was in serious trouble. The engine braking in 1st gear was surprisingly ineffective. Any attempt to touch the brakes and the ABS just cut them out again. I was going faster and faster and more and more out of control. Yes I had some steering but no way of slowing down; in fact I was speeding up. It was dreadful. It wasn't a case of if I was going to crash; it was where I was going to crash. To make it more interesting, we had already agreed a part exchange deal on the car and it was due to be traded in the coming weekend! I made it round a couple of bends and about 200 yards. It felt like I was on a somewhat out of control toboggan. There was a big bend coming up and I knew I wasn't going to make it. I went in to the hedge fairly hard sideways. Miraculously the wheels hit a frozen rut left by a lorry and stopped me. Even more surprising there was no damage to the car at all, bar some small scratches that polished out. I was extremely lucky.
Morals of the story, snow on top of black ice (which I hadn't appreciated was the case till afterwards) is absolutely lethal, particularly on a hill. Fat sports summer tyres on a light car with lots of power don't work in snow at all, but beaten up old Landrovers with a low ratio box and skinny tyres are pretty good.

We now have a Disco2 with winter tyres and that is, as the Americans would say, "truly awesome" on ice and snow.
End of confession.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Phil,

Be my guest, - it will be interesting to see if the web site can handle the formulae.

But you will find that if there is any differential speed between the forward motion of the axle and the rotational speed (positive or negative) of the wheels, the traction and thus directional control is is reduced.

 

[Steve L]

Hello, reading some of these comments are pathetic, with a safe well maintained Car Caravan etc etc towing at 65 is more than safe. As for your coments s in leo as your so Law abiding, it is an offence to drive without displaying a tax disc wether or not it is DVLA's fault display means displayed. Tax in post does not apply i'm affraid. Also all vehicles with a gvw over 7500kgs must have a tachograph and speed limiter fitted (56 mph with a tollerance of 2 mph)

Actually hollypop, when you apply and pay for a tax disc on line, your vehicle then flags up as taxed on a PNC check. The DVLA allow and the police accept that it takes upto 5 working days for your tax disc to arrive in the post. Yes all vehicles with a gross train weight actually above 3500 Kgs must have a tachograph, vehicles above 7500 Kgs GVW must have one too, but vehicles registered before september 2001 do not need a speed limiter to be fitted. And while we're at it! If you tow a trailer not weighing more than 1000Kgs unladen behind a 3500Kg GVW vehicle, you do not need an operators license.
Having run both types of vehicle and dealing with DVLA and VOSA with all aspects of the usage, I had to swallow their rule book lok stock and barrel.

Sorry to disappoint you Dusty, I was nicknamed the stig by my polish workmates (yep some of them do work for a living), because of the "efficient manner" in which I got them home from building sites. You see they only got paid for the outward drive. This could mean they lost 2 hrs pay per day for 6 days per week if I took my time. However in my prototype tester role I was just as capable as the top gear team of pushing a car to the edge of traction.

Also I will add no one is an angel and everyone has broken some rule or other in their live's. Classic being stopping on double yellows to get the morning paper because the "warlocks" (traffic wardens) haven't got up yet, or "interplod" (local bobby) is waiting for the speeder instead.

Atb Steve L

 

[Icemaker]

What is this constant obsession with reporting people who are "apparently" speeding whilst towing ?. has it really got anything to do with you ? how do you know they are speeding at the rate you say ? ive got a very new vehicle but the speedo is way out, at an indicated 65 on the speedo i am actually doing 60 according to the sat nav at 75 on the speedo im doing 67 on the sat nav. which one is correct i dont know but i go off the speedometer as that is the legal indicator.
so you may say that the allegedly speeding driver "could" cause an accident ! well so could you by concentrating more on others than you are on your own driving ! leave others to do as they wish and you do as you wish, if we had less busy bodies and interferers in this world it would be a much nicer place !.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Waffler,an OK post.You,like me and many others know the answer to your question. No they are Bloody Well Not.
There was an article/letter in a Mag' or an a Forum Site during the last 6wks or so that endorsed just how the insurers in co-operation with the Police and The CPS will pursue any case that they believe is, An I'm al-right;I'm insured so let me get on with my Caravanning Holiday example.The case in question caused a massive amount of damage with the loaded vehicle & caravan contents being spread all around the accident scene.There was an Aircraft Investigation type case put together and the result was that the caravan was hopelessly overloaded, and towards the front.The car with occupants etc was also OTT.
The result was; Insurance Invalidated and the total costs were borne by the perpetrator and the Police threw the book at him.
The mentioned further into the responses/feedback of; when it rains not getting hemmed in and splattered with spray off lorries etc,etc,to me(my personal view/opinion)of stepping up the pace to 60ish is Nuts.The Maximum of 60mph is on the assumption that everything in the wider picture is OK/Fine to be doing it.A wet road & raining with Car & Caravan @ 60mph is not OK/Fine.The nearside lane (Not:- Slow Lane)at 45ish is a dammed site more OK/Fine.
Insurance Companies thrive on(Insured!!?) Idiot Drivers and the best that can happen is that the Idiot is proven that he/she is or was a bigger idiot than they ever suspected.
My Late Father always maintained that the roads were full of Idiot Drivers,his constant aim was to not be a bigger one than the one that had just proved the point.He obtained his license in the army,drove all over the Middle East, North Africa and Italy and carried on in the UK until ill-health called a halt. Sixty Four Years accident free,Not Bad.

 

[chrisbee1]

Actually hollypop, when you apply and pay for a tax disc on line, your vehicle then flags up as taxed on a PNC check. The DVLA allow and the police accept that it takes upto 5 working days for your tax disc to arrive in the post. Yes all vehicles with a gross train weight actually above 3500 Kgs must have a tachograph, vehicles above 7500 Kgs GVW must have one too, but vehicles registered before september 2001 do not need a speed limiter to be fitted. And while we're at it! If you tow a trailer not weighing more than 1000Kgs unladen behind a 3500Kg GVW vehicle, you do not need an operators license.
Having run both types of vehicle and dealing with DVLA and VOSA with all aspects of the usage, I had to swallow their rule book lok stock and barrel.

Atb Steve L

You're a bit out with the dates. A LGV with a MTW above 12001 first registered after 1 Jan 1988 required a speed limiter to be fitted by 1 Aug 1993 although it was set to 60mph. Those registered from 1 Jan 1994 had to have it set to 85 kph. There have been various changes to the legislation over the years, mainly the speed now set to 90kph, but to find an artic on trunk work without the requirement for a RSL to be fitted is rare I would suggest.

 

[Philspadders]

"But you will find that if there is any differential speed between the forward motion of the axle and the rotational speed (positive or negative) of the wheels, the traction and thus directional control is is reduced."

so where there was non we now have reduce control which as we know is better than non.

But Prof you have chiosen tio ignore the fundamentals.
if the forward motion is 5m/min and the rotation of the wheels as measured on the circumference is 3m /min then the vehicle is still sliding.
However if the velocity is 5m / min and the roational velocity of the wheel is 5.5m/min then you can start to regain control.
That was quite clearly stated in the post. Its a technique i have used , but like all driving skills , takes a great deal of practice.

And that is why when i see a post by someone stating that they happily brake law because they have correctkly loaded the van etc i get slightly angry.
As drivers we all think we have the skills of a world class rally driver, and that is simply not the case. I wonder if the speeders would carry on doing this if there was a 12" steel spike fixed to the ctr of the steering wheel. After all, in their eyes they are perfectly safe.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

If, heaven forbid, that I'm ever in the middle lane overtaking with traffic in the outside and have a blow out/snake I somehow don't think I'll remember the words of advice in this thread because my sphincter muscle will be in competition with my brain for my attention :O)

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
sorry guys time to take a reality check here allthough some of the posts are quite amusing and some of the ideas quite quiant it has to be remembered that the national speed limits were introduced to save fuel during some long ago forgotten oil crisis. As a by product it was noticed that the accident and fatality rates reduced after the limits were introduced so they stayed in place after the crisis was over. bearing in mind the type and top speed of the cars on the road at the time 70mph was in fact quite generous as some cars at the time this was allmost there top speed anyway. seeing as how most cars these days even the smalliest ones could achieve this upper limit in 3rd or 4th gear just shows how far vehicle design as come, but the same limits still apply to a 40year old moggy 1000 as they do to a brand new insignia. I must point out at this point that I DO NOT advocate breaking the speed laws however I am not naive enough to be suprised when it happens.
the same goes for towing a trailer time was when you could fill the van to its capacity and hang it on to a cortina via a home made tow bar and go, but not anymore so it is supprising there ARE still towing stability problems encountered and some who show disgust at anyone who dares to tow @ 1mph over the 60 limit like its something they never have done ever.
lets face it a outfit that is 100% stable @ 60mph does not become a out of control monster @65 it may be illegal but in its self not the only factor involved so am I supprised to see speeding towers not in the slightest what I am supprised at is despite all the legistlation in place the ammout of ill matched dangerious units there is out there, some of them snaking along @ 50 because they dare not go any faster, so would I break the limit to get passed them and put as much distance as possible between them and me ABSOLUTELY. the post by DomDom illustrates this.

To be honest, I see all sorts of outfits speeding past me quite regularly. It's scary sometimes seeing the swaying movement and knowing they're only 2 or 3 mph from a snake. Even our outfit is not smooth over about 62 and that's a 2007 Range Rover Vogue pulling a TA Elddis Crusader.

sorry mate but a unit that is not smooth @ 62mph is not right somewhere, because a waggle at 62 in good conditions is a waggle @ 50 in poor conditions, as for being only 2 or 3 miles per hr from a snake a unit that is that badly suited is dangerious at any speed let alone 60. one final word on the subject anyone who has not the confidence or ability to tow their outfit anywhere in any conditions at any appropriate speed is is my view out of their depth or the unit they are using is not matched or loaded correctly.

colin

 

[Dustydog]

Sorry to disappoint you Dusty, I was nicknamed the stig by my polish workmates (yep some of them do work for a living), because of the "efficient manner" in which I got them home from building sites. You see they only got paid for the outward drive. This could mean they lost 2 hrs pay per day for 6 days per week if I took my time.

Aha. I was correct but it was the Polish builders not Clarkson who named you the Stig!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Phil,
My original response said there was 'no benefit' and I should have extended that to say no benefit over allowing the wheels to free wheel.

The fact is that if there is any differential in speed between the tyres and the motion of the vehicle, by definition the tyres must be sliding or skidding.
The scenario you gave had the vehicles forward motion at 5m/min, and the free-wheel wheel at only 3m/min, a differential of -2m/min. yet you only had the powered wheels at 5.5m/min. which is a differntial of only +0.5m/min. but it is still skidding. There will be a difference between the two scenarios, but redress the speed differentials so they are opposite but equal, and there is no difference and thus no advantage to over-speeding the wheels.

There are some practical disadvantages to accelerating the wheels, You would need to have a superb and accurate feel for the speed of the vehicle, as you have no reference as the speedometer would not be registering the true speed. The driver would need to have incredible self control over their actions when a skid starts, they would need exceptional throttle control to be able to accurately feed just enough power to finely control the speed of the wheel, and the uncertainty of how the tractive effort would be split through the driven axles differential. All of that in a slip second? I think it is not humanly possible to orchestrate all those actions in the heat of the moment. even with a great deal of practice. There is a very real danger that you will apply too much throttle and the wheels will spin much faster that the actual forward travel of the vehicle impairing any grip it may have had.

By comparison, the free-wheel method, guarantees the wheels will never exceed the speed of the vehicle, and each wheel is free to asume the speed of that part of the vehicle, such as when turning a bend. there is no danger of adding any extra energy to the system that has caused the loss of traction in the first place.

I have only very very rarely come across a situation where I have needed to use such techniques, and I hope such opportunities will be few and far between in the future for both of us.

 

[602]

Hi,
A well matched combination could be perfectly safe at well over the legal speed limit ...... until something goes wrong.

I remember seeing a Jaguar parked on the verge/shoulder of the M4, with a caravan attached. The Jag was facing the wrong way, and the caravan was inverted. I'd bet a few quid that that didn't happen at legal speeds.

602

 

[Steve L]

I quite agree 602, it's not until something goes wrong that people take notice. By then it is too late!! They usually end up hurting family members or innocent members of the public (other drivers) by their thoughtless actions.
On my very first excursion with a 1984 Renault 18 estate and a 10ft sprite circa 1960's borrowed from my brother-in-law, to see if we liked caravanning. (28 years ago).
We were passed by a car towing at a stupid speed, he was even overtaking cars. Then 10 miles up the M5 we came across an accident. It was the speeder. The caravan was matchwood, the car had no glass left and was on it's roof. Later that day on the news we saw the accident again. He had killed his wife and seriously injured the two children and to top it all he was likely to be paralised.
Just how much grief does it take before people abide by speed limits (they are not targets), and also take care to maintain their cars and caravans, and load them correctly.
I come across motorist's on a daily basis who clearly have got past the good for use date, and vehicles clearly not fit for purpose.
I would fully advocate driving assessments every 5 years upto 50 and bi-annually after that. Then on every license renewal after 70. Also I would support the same assessment for trailer users with the trailer attatched to the car. It would weed out the incompetent people who let their standards slip and those who couldn't give a toss.
Of coarse the big hurdle would be having enough qualified assessors and cost to the public. Well that's the usual excuses for not doing a scheme.
We had a mindless moron speed across a giveway line at a crossroads that he didn't see, causing our friends to T-bone him at 50Mph, just because he was on his phone! If our friends had been just 2 seconds earlier, he would of T-boned them and undoubtedly would of killed or seriously injured at least one of them. He admitted liability but what will he get ? Driving without due care, using a phone while driving, and as long as he's been a good boy his license remains intact but with a few points. Or as I percieve it , a slap on the wrist's.

What ever happened to a thinking caring driver these days.

Atb Steve L.

 

[SteveW77]

Any unit is safe until something goes wrong regardless of the speed at which it is travelling.

As for the Jag, you can bet as much as you like, but you don't know why the accident happened, you are only guessing.
not exactly scientific.

Steve W

 

[extrucker1]

hi all, when iwas taught Cadence braking, it was explaned that when the brake shoes first come into contact with the drums, that is when the greatest braking effect was. so by using the cadence method the brakes never got hot, or had a chance to exband away from the drums. this was when all cars had drum brakes. allso if you have no drive to any wheels, your out of control anyway. ray.

 

[rudski01]

The mentioned further into the responses/feedback of; when it rains not getting hemmed in and splattered with spray off lorries etc,etc,to me(my personal view/opinion)of stepping up the pace to 60ish is Nuts.The Maximum of 60mph is on the assumption that everything in the wider picture is OK/Fine to be doing it.A wet road & raining with Car & Caravan @ 60mph is not OK/Fine.The nearside lane (Not:- Slow Lane)at 45ish is a dammed site more OK/Fine.
Insurance Companies thrive on(Insured!!?) Idiot Drivers and the best that can happen is that the Idiot is proven that he/she is or was a bigger idiot than they ever suspected. And to prove that idiot drivers were doing 60 means they can't wriggle out of paying up because it's the legal limit insurance companys will allways try and avoid payment

And i bet the LGV drivers love you, your the type of person that causes accidents by driving so slow causing frustration and anger people end up taking risks to get on with their everyday lifes. As i said before if you wan't to play with the LGVs then fair enough some of us don't want to. Well loaded vans and good combinations are steady in these modern times, any one can have a blow out that could turn a van over at 45 or 60 it all depends on lady luck aswell i'm afraid. And to prove that idiot drivers were doing 60 means they can't wriggle out of paying up because it's the legal limit! insurance companys will allways try and avoid payment whatever the circumstances. I just wish the police would stop people for driving so irritatingly slow on main roads.

 

[602]

As for the Jag, you can bet as much as you like, but you don't know why the accident happened, you are only guessing.
not exactly scientific.

Hi Steve
I feel I was adequately scientific ..... I said I'd bet a few quid, I didn't say I'd bet everything I have.
I think the courts consider themselves able to accept prima facia evidence, unless the driver can offer an alternative explanation.
602

 

[SteveW77]

By delving in to legal practices and court proceedures I think we are getting away from the main theme of the thread,

However I would point out that when on jury service you are told only to take factual evidence into consideration, not speculation or un-supported opinions.

Steve W

 

[602]

Hi Steve,

Points taken.

Would you like to look at
http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/08/24/video-driver-survives-airborne-100mph-smash/
and offer an unscientific opinion about the likely cause of this accident. The driver should be able to cadge free drinks for years on the strength of this video. ;-) The 11th commandment says "Thou shalt not get caught". I think that includes passing a police car.
602

 

[Duncan123]

Thank God somebody got the RSL info right!!
You would be suprised however how easy it is to disable them,quite a few wagons run without them(mostly night trunks).