speeding towers

[waffler]

Been to Kent via M40. M25 and back via M1 and M6. We tow a coachman vip with a sorento. About 64% match. The van has ATC and Tyron. Traffic conditions were such that I stayed with the lorries 56 mph and was amazed to be passed by outfits towing at what must have been 70 mph. Twin axles towed by family cars! We know that overtaking downhill can be dangerous and yet these outfits were passing me!

Is your car insurance valid if you ignore the weight limits and then speed?

 

[602]

Hi,

The Road Traffic Acts 1994, I think para 143 (might be 148), give a long list of excuses that the insurance companies CAN NOT use to avoid paying out on a THIRD PARTY claim. The list includes weight of vehicle, and the manner in which it was being driven.
However, the insurers have the right to recover their losses from YOU.
They may also refuse to pay out for OWN DAMAGE, but I suppose you could sue them.

602

 

[Steve L]

Yea Waffler, there are plenty of idiots about.
I always say, " you've got the home on the back, so why rush, you can always stop and have a knapp or a bacon buttie< so why rush and risk an accident?"
Like you I'm quite content to sit at 56-58 Mph and go with the flow. After all, even after a 100 mile dash at 70Mph the berks dashing only make at best 15 mins on our relaxed drive. I bet their blood pressure is at boiling point and they have crampped hands from all the concentration on the dash for the ferry. Of coarseyou know what the usual jovial term is for cramped hands and obviously the term of that suit's the speeding tower's to a tee.

I'm quite sure that if the blame stick came out in an accident and speed or overloading could be proved to be a major cotributary factor, then you would not only see your insurer persuing you for payment of costs, but also the police prosecuting for dangerous driving and finally the other injured parties sueing for injury, distress and loss of earnings.

So all in all, life would be very difficult to say the least. Of coarse, just get a conviction for that on your record and it could also be goodbye to your well paid public sector job. That covers everyone from a street cleaner to teacher, fireman, policeman, paramedic, security guard, taxi driver, judge and soforth.

So, all those who think they are "considerably better than yow" could be brought down to earth with a massive bump!

So think before you dash it could cost you more than CRASH otr CASH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve L.

 

[JohnM20]

Hi Waffler
Like you I normally tow at about 55mph not least of which is because of the big saving in fuel consumption and whilst I am not an eco warrior, appreciate that this also equates to less CO emmisions. Also like you, I am amazed by the number of outfits that come past me at considerable speed, obviously well above the 60mph limit and some looking very unsafe with the car fully loaded, 2 or 3 kids in the back and bikes on the car roof. Have these drivers ever considered the stopping distance with such an increase in weight of the whole outfit ?
This time of the year seems to bring out more of this type of driver / outfit that leads me to think that they are not 'caravanners' but families with a caravan who use it once a year for their trip to Cornwall, with their ignorance of limits and possible "I only use it once a year so it doesn't need servicing". From a recent personal experience, I was appalled when I found out that my 40 year old nephew from America had borrowed a caravan from a friend when he visited the UK recently. He had never towed a caravan before and knew nothing about speed limits, weight limits or whether the caravan was roadworthy which, from reports that I have had, it was not. Apparently it was green with mould and burst a tyre on his first journey with it. And this was with three young children in the car. I had tried to warn him via my sister but some people will not heed any advice.
Getting back to speeding, when I was working I was out on the road every day and noticed on many many occasions that the car that raced past me at well above the sped limit was frequently only a car or two in front at the next set of traffic lights or island.
Caravanning is a leisure activity so why don't people drive leisurely. Have they got to be the first one through the site gate when they are allowed in at 12.00 noon. Slow down, life is too short to live it at speed.
JohnM

 

[DeliDave_]

Of course no one should speed or overload their vans but how would a conviction lose a streetsweeper their job unless they went to prison.Your other arguments are on the ball but thats a bit wild

 

[rudski01]

If sitting in the slow lane getting hemmed in, blinded by spray of wagons at 56 mph is your preference then fair enough. Personnely i don't condone speeding and its been talked about on here to the death but i would rather sit at 60ish and trundle past the wagons and i feel more in control, we have a twin axle that is always loaded safely and towed by wait for it... a large 4X4 it never twitches when passing wagons and is never a grip the steering wheel to death moment. I don't have children but always have my partner and dog with me and would never drive so dangerously to put there lives in jeapordy, not everybody want's to play with the lorrys though!

 

[Philspadders]

You do of course pull back into lane 1 when it is sfe to do so?, or perhaps you are better than those with only single axle ubnits and small cars .

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Waffler
Is your car insurance valid if you ignore the weight limits and then speed?

Most Motor policies have what is known as a due diligence clause . In effect you the Insured agree to keep your vehicle in a good state of repair and roadworthiness. In reality it may be difficult for the Insurer to prove you were speeding . If you've just scattered the remains of your caravan across the M5 then the Insurer can't weigh it. However he will know the makes etc and will be prepared to take action if say you are towing a 1900kgs with a Reliant Robin. LOL.

I've never understood the need to race. Apart from anything else it must be shaking the caravan to bits!

 

[rudski01]

You do of course pull back into lane 1 when it is sfe to do so?, or perhaps you are better than those with only single axle ubnits and small cars .

Whats any of what i said got to do with being better? it's common sense to pull back in and 99% of wagon drivers flash to let you know when it's safe to do so and i always thank them for it. And i always pull into the 1st lane when not towing anything it's the lazy A**ses that sit in the middle lane because they don't read the traffic and cause the fast lane to snarl up, but thats another argument altogether.

Cheers

 

[hollypop1]

Hi all,
one thing I would like to add, if you tow at the same speed as Hgv's 56 ish not only can you hold them up but also they are forever up your rear or overtaking. Towing just a bit quicker than these at 60mph appears to be a lot safer.
By the way I tow at 60-65mph always load both Van and Car safely well within 85% guide, and leave plenty of space in front in case of eventualities.
thanks
Hollypop.

 

[TimM]

I tend to tow at 60 when I can on dual carriage ways and motorways. I have ended up with a Disco2 and a smallish 2 berth caravan. Its nearly always a very stable outfit but some conditions do seem to upset it a bit and 60 becomes too fast. I'm not sure quite why, but a strongish wind on the rear quarter of the caravan starts it moving around a bit and I slow down. Slowing going down hill is obvious to most people. Some of the long motorway hills in France have special lanes to pull in and go slowly down the steep hills. I usually feel in those conditions that if I can feel the caravan beginning to push the car then its time to drop the speed down. Might be a bit over the top but it suites me and has worked so far. I used to tow a heavy twin axle with the same car and that was much more sensitive to speed and wind conditions. I think it acted more like a big sail pushing the back of the car around. The smaller caravan is definitely more stable in our case. I saw a large single axle at the weekend that was going it some and moving about all over the place. We were solo and gave it a wide berth as we went passed. A snake looked highly probable but the driver seemed oblivious to what was going on behind him. I hope he made it to his destination. There are overturned caravans and jacknifed caravans on the radio travel every day at the moment. I'm not that surprised, but having said that, nearly all caravans do travel very sensibly.

 

[Dustydog]

Hollypop
Just in case any newbies get the wrong end of your
By the way I tow at 60-65mph always load both Van and Car safely well within 85% guide, and leave plenty of space in front in case of eventualities.

Breaking the speed limits is a crime! It's your licence NOT theirs.

 

[Philspadders]

its not just a crime its dangerous. think about other road users and consioder what may happen to them if you lose it at 65 with the van on the back.... its not just your life you risk but those of others.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Phil, your last posting seems to imply that it is generally unsafe to tow at 65mph. I must first stress that I do not encourage anyone to break the law, and I also try to remain fully compliant, but there is a difference between speeding and driving at excessive speed.

There are plenty of outfits that can tow with good road behaviour at 65mph and above as proven in places where the 60mph speed limit does not apply. Whilst that is true it does of course depend on the individual outfit and the driver. Being capable of travelling at these speeds does not mean you should.

The other aspect to this is that some outfits are unsafe at speeds well below the speed limit, whilst not speeding, they are travelling at excessive speed, which if in the view of the authorities the vehicle is unsafe, the driver may be prosecuted for a dangerous driving, or having an unsafe vehicle or load.
So whilst towing in the UK at 65mph is illegal it is not necessarily unsafe.

 

[Guest]

Totally agree Prof, passed an outfit on the M42 this morning, probably doing the 'legal limit' in the nearside lane, however this fairly large S/A was being towed by a SWB Shogun and it's front wheels were nearly off the ground!!
I can only guess what nose weight might cause this? but this type of thing and a myriad of others that cause grief, simply sticking to speed limits on it's own won't help.

 

[JonnyRockstar]

Putting the legal side of it to one side a point and breaking the law - which is safer ?
A modern and well maintained car towing a modern and wel maintained caravan at 65-70 mph or towing at 60mph with the opposite !!

 

[Philspadders]

"A modern and well maintained car towing a modern and wel maintained caravan at 65-70 mph or towing at 60mph with the opposite !!"

Thats assuming the car and caravan are correctly loaded and maintained and that the driver is skilled enough to deal with any situation that may occur- and i doubt many drivers are. Most drivers have a very arrogant attitude towards driving, we all think we are highly skilled and competant.
If you think you are so skilled then lets hope that you dont have an accident and if you do it only affects you and not anyone else.

heres a question, and do not google the answer .

You are driving down hill and the car enters a forward slide , you apply the brakes and still continue sliding , at which point you have no steering and no control. How do you regain control of the vehicle ?

I have carried out this monuver and it it did not come easily, but after lots of training finally have it mastered.

 

[Philspadders]

come on guys, you are such good drivers you must know the answer to this.

How do you find grip on muddy track and are stuck in ruts?

Try an experiment. Find a quiet road, lay out some cones in a line, speed up to them then stop with out hitting them. The do it again but stop later, let your ABS kick and steer out of the way while still braking . Bet you cant do it.

 

[Steve L]

It doesn't matter a jot how old your outfit is, it is how well maintained and loaded that gives maximum security of towing.
I've towed a 1982 Link 575 twin axle van with a 1998 Laguna which went on to tow a 2005 Abbey 540se. I now tow with a 2001 Rover75 cdti.

Towing above 60Mph is illegal in this country. No matter how much you try to go with the flow with lorry's, you will get overtaken by pre 2001 lorry's because there was no requirement for speed limiters to be fitted. Most large haulage firms tend to use thes later lorry's at night on the trunk runs as there is less traffic about and the driver can make good time.

As most of you know I have been a test driver for two top sports car manufacturers and a top british luxury car producer where on a track I drove to 155Mph and beyond. However you will find me doing about 58 Mph on the motorway and 50Mph on normal roads, but again that is only where suitable conditions exist. People should not be encouraged to just *** over the speed limit as it is there for safety reasons to control the majority of drivers and not the minority who think they are better than yow.

I couldn't give a hoot if a lorry wants to overtake, I just follow the highway code advice and slow a little to aid his quick passage. What I also do is to glide to the right of my lane and as the lorry draws level with the back of my caravan, I move to the far left of my lane, which cuts down the bow wave of air buffetting the caravan which can cause a sway if it is too strong.

Caravan towing is the starting point to a good holiday so relax take your time and leave the rodent race behind.

Atb Steve L.

 

[hollypop1]

Hello, reading some of these comments are pathetic, with a safe well maintained Car Caravan etc etc towing at 65 is more than safe. As for your coments s in leo as your so Law abiding, it is an offence to drive without displaying a tax disc wether or not it is DVLA's fault display means displayed. Tax in post does not apply i'm affraid. Also all vehicles with a gvw over 7500kgs must have a tachograph and speed limiter fitted (56 mph with a tollerance of 2 mph)

 

[Dustydog]

Steve in Leo
Were you the original stig from Top Gear??

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

As most of you know I have been a test driver for two top sports car manufacturers and a top british luxury car producer where on a track I drove to 155Mph and beyond.

How could we forget Steve, you tell us every day ... heh! heh! heh! ;O)

I never get involved on forums with driving debates because of the simple fact ALL MEN think they are excellent drivers.
After driving for 30 years on the frontline Ambulance Service I never had an accident but I can assure you I had many close scrapes and near misses but luck played a large part in a lot of them.
In one incident while responding to a 999 call 14 miles away a car pulled out of a lane immediately to my left and then stopped to let me by. This was a regular occurence but what the plonkers don't realise is they are an added obstacle in the way and in this case I had a clear straight road so was motoring. My problem began when they stopped to let me by and about 5 cars were coming the other way leaving me with nowhere to go. Even today I'm not sure how I got through without hitting anyone, especially when trying to peer through the smoke from tyres. I was aware of the skid, it was as if I was waltzing through the obstacles, and I controlled the skid but it was only by the grace of God that the ambulance or other vehicles never received a scratch. I don't care how good a lot of people think they are at driving, that was down to luck and other factors like no oil on the road or it being dry. Another time it could have easily have ended up with fatalities because of the impatience of one driver who couldn't wait to let us pass before pulling out.
Sadly it was all in vain because we were too late to save the young woman.

 

[Parksy]

heres a question, and do not google the answer .

You are driving down hill and the car enters a forward slide , you apply the brakes and still continue sliding , at which point you have no steering and no control. How do you regain control of the vehicle ?

I have carried out this monuver and it it did not come easily, but after lots of training finally have it mastered.

What we were taught before ABS, Traction Control and other electronic driving aids were in common use was what was called 'cadence braking'.
When wheels are locked the ability of the front wheels to steer the vehicle is greatly reduced or non existent. If we were driving in snow or icy slippery conditions at low speeds lorries could easily start to slide if the brakes were locked on. To regain some steering the footbrake was applied and released rapidly, the theory being that the tyres when turning would regain some purchase on the road surface with the braking action keeping the vehicle speed down.
In a sense the cadence braking was emulating what ABS does now.
It works at low speeds, I wouldn't like to be in a position where I had to try it at high speed :0(

 

[Philspadders]

nope, you are ging down hill, the wheels have stopped and you are sliding. Cadence wont help.. yet.

You are correct in a sense, but this is what i was getting at earlier, its okay drivers saying " i have a big tow car , i have a TA so i am safe" . No you are not as you simply do not have the skills.

The answer to my post.... take your foot off the brake.. you need to regain control, so you need to get the wheel turning again. This may even mean applying a bit of gas which goes against evry instinct in your body.

Once the wheels are turning ( faster than the rate of slide) then you can start to regain control of the vehicle, you can start to have some steering control, some braking control ( cadence is the best way , just very soft , short taps on the pedal) and you can usually come to stop in a controlled manner.

But we do have a lotus test driver conbtributing so peraps he could shed some further light on this and other skills that may usefull. 4 wheel drifts, rear wheel drift, handbrake braking , correcting understeeer /oversteer etc

 

[Parksy]

I was close then Phil because to begin the cadence procedure the brakes are released but although in times past I've used the 'soft tap' cadence method when necessary I've never tried applying throttle which would definitely cause squeaky bum syndrome for me!
I agree that it would work in some situations but I've never been in an out of control slide for the length of time that it would take to carry out the procedure that you mentioned using the throttle.

its okay drivers saying " i have a big tow car , i have a TA so i am safe" . No you are not as you simply do not have the skills.

As it happens I do own a fairly large 4x4 and a t/a but I can assure you that I for one never take anything for granted. I take steps such as correct loading, checks on tyre pressures and condition etc to limit the possibility of things going wrong and depending on the situation, road conditions etc I try to maintain a speed of between 55 - 60 mph indicated by gps on motorways whenever possible. I still see caravanners overtaking me with quite a margin of speed but to be honest I don't worry about them because I'm too busy concentrating on what's around me.
The way that I see it is that if the speed merchants are away from my immediate surroundings so much the better.