This one, bought last month from Alpha batteries, absolutely superb service.
https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-100ah-platinum-100ah-agm-leisure-battery-pagm100-12-ncc-class-a/
This one, bought last month from Alpha batteries, absolutely superb service.
https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-100ah-platinum-100ah-agm-leisure-battery-pagm100-12-ncc-class-a/
I have a 2012 Sprite Alpine 4. I have found the build quality great, but I bought mine used not new. Considering its now 7yrs old, its like new inside, but I am not sure how much use the previous owners had out of it (very little by the look of it!).
jamestaylor18 said:
Oh come on James!
Like new????
At 7 years old I cannot possibly believe the inside is really like new!, No cussions sagging a little, the kitchen top has no scrtaches, not a sign of wear on the door handles,etc.etc.. Would a dealer offer you the new price?
I have no reason to doubt that you may have taken great care over the caravan and that is a cretdit to you, But bit or realism please.
It's the same rose tinted thinking that some people use when they claim their car's so good they don't notice the weight of the caravan affecting the way the car drives. Perhaps they should pay more attention.
ProfJohnL said:
That’s a bit harsh and you have no way of knowing what it is like inside. The first owners may have been meticulous and/or hardly used the caravan for a number of reasons. And the OP might also look after it with care.
I think most who read his post know what he’s trying to convey. I don’t suppose for one minute the OP would expect to get “new” price but what he’s saying is that at 7 years old it’s still in an extremely excellent condition, some of which is down to good ownership and some down to good build quality. I have the same model year and they did seem well built. Axles and rear panels excepted but they are external.
.......I really enjoy caravanning and have done over many years. Apart from buying odds and ends from a dealers shop I have not dealt with dealers since 1995!
That suits me just fine.
Just bought a 2011 used Swift privately with all the gear from someone giving up.
The caravan was half the new price and had been well looked after and came with many extras.
There are absolute bargains to be found on the used market.
That suits me just fine.
Just bought a 2011 used Swift privately with all the gear from someone giving up.
The caravan was half the new price and had been well looked after and came with many extras.
There are absolute bargains to be found on the used market.
ProfJohnL said:
Not The Prof I know,
The OP only said what he feels about how good a carvan he is fortunate enough to be able to enjoy.
Lighten up Prof, have a wee dram
ReverendJT said:
No worries... most of the issues were spotted at delivery. Some of the Veneer scuffs were sorted the same day. We decided to take the caravan away and come back to get the remaining issues fixed as we'd booked a week away. During that trip we collated some more, such as the water pump and its effect on the lights.
I think the issues I've had are fairly par for the course for a new caravan. But we really do love it. It's a 'basic'/entry level caravan but it has every thing we need.
ReverendJT said:
I don't know about that... seems to have been a known issue for a long time.
ReverendJT said:
:lol: It was a legacy from Xbox Live. Just reused the name.
CustardAvenger said:
But don't you think they should have been detected before you were offered the caravan? The dealer hadn't done the job they are paid and expected to do. The customer expects perfect products, the CRA requires them to sell perfect brand new products, and the Manufacture expectes the dealer to sort out the problems they create by not doing the job right first time. - So dealers should be in no doubt about their obligations to all parties.
If the dealer fails to to prepare the caravan properly, the customer has evey right (including legal rites) to be indignant about it.
Ultimately we know a lot of it is actually the fault of the manufacturers, and they do need to make improvements. But dealers must know the dire condition that manufactures allow to leave the factory, so they should have full goods inwards inspection as part of thier business plan. If dealers don't like the condition of the caravans they recieve, then they should start rejecting them back to thier suppliers. Its in the dealers hands, and there is no reasons why they should allow faults of any sort to reach the customer.
Have to agree. It beats me why dealers make trouble for themselves with unhappy customers when rejecting or rectifying the caravan would probably make for an easier life for them. Possibly delaying the sale hits their cash flow but at what long term cost.
There have been numerous studies by all sorts of companies about the real costs of allowing a fault to reach the end customer.
One study that sticks in my mind, was a company who manufactured an electrical appliance. The design called for a earth wire to be fixed to a 3mm stud welded to the body of the appliance. It was specified by the designer (who was well qualified and knowledgeable about such things) to use a ring crimmped ring terminal sandwiched between a pair of shake proof washers. The design and bill of materials was approved and passed to the buyers. One bright spark decided to save £0.001 per appliance by changing the specification of the clamping washers, and it was slipped through into production.
Some 1000 appliances later, the issue with the clamping washers was highlighted, and in fact the product had its electrical approval rescinded because the earth connection was deemed to be insecure.
It cost the company about £25 per appliance to remedy the problem, plus the cost of re submitting the appliance for approvals.
The buying muppet saved the company probably less than £10, but the costs of correcting it ran to close on £50K
Caravan manufacturers do not seem to understand the real cost of their products leaving the factory with faults. The real cost of rectifying such things is far greater than if the manufacturers were to do it right first time.
The real costs are hidden, because firstly caravan manufacturers build into their selling price a quite hefty sum to cover some of the costs of warranty repairs. Its few years ago now but I came into possession of some information that suggested that a sum of nearly 8% of the RRP was budgeted per caravan for warranty costs. (do not ask which manufacture that was, as I will not tell!)
And that isn’t the whole story, because of the way the Manufacturer's warranty is structured, the end user has to subsidise those costs by providing the transport to and from the dealership, and covers any costs associated with that, such as loss of earnings, or overnight accommodations if its a very long journey and of course inconvenience of having a faulty product off loaded onto them, even ruined holidays or plans.
If caravan manufacturers were to really put customers first, and stop making silly and avoidable design and production errors, it is my guess they could easily reduce the price of a caravan by 5 to 8% and still maintain the same gross profit but from a lower turnover. That should impress the accountants.
To boot they would have far more satisfied customers, Dealers would have less essential fire fighting, and the industry would be seen in a much better light.
One study that sticks in my mind, was a company who manufactured an electrical appliance. The design called for a earth wire to be fixed to a 3mm stud welded to the body of the appliance. It was specified by the designer (who was well qualified and knowledgeable about such things) to use a ring crimmped ring terminal sandwiched between a pair of shake proof washers. The design and bill of materials was approved and passed to the buyers. One bright spark decided to save £0.001 per appliance by changing the specification of the clamping washers, and it was slipped through into production.
Some 1000 appliances later, the issue with the clamping washers was highlighted, and in fact the product had its electrical approval rescinded because the earth connection was deemed to be insecure.
It cost the company about £25 per appliance to remedy the problem, plus the cost of re submitting the appliance for approvals.
The buying muppet saved the company probably less than £10, but the costs of correcting it ran to close on £50K
Caravan manufacturers do not seem to understand the real cost of their products leaving the factory with faults. The real cost of rectifying such things is far greater than if the manufacturers were to do it right first time.
The real costs are hidden, because firstly caravan manufacturers build into their selling price a quite hefty sum to cover some of the costs of warranty repairs. Its few years ago now but I came into possession of some information that suggested that a sum of nearly 8% of the RRP was budgeted per caravan for warranty costs. (do not ask which manufacture that was, as I will not tell!)
And that isn’t the whole story, because of the way the Manufacturer's warranty is structured, the end user has to subsidise those costs by providing the transport to and from the dealership, and covers any costs associated with that, such as loss of earnings, or overnight accommodations if its a very long journey and of course inconvenience of having a faulty product off loaded onto them, even ruined holidays or plans.
If caravan manufacturers were to really put customers first, and stop making silly and avoidable design and production errors, it is my guess they could easily reduce the price of a caravan by 5 to 8% and still maintain the same gross profit but from a lower turnover. That should impress the accountants.
To boot they would have far more satisfied customers, Dealers would have less essential fire fighting, and the industry would be seen in a much better light.
ProfJohnL said:
Prof
You have a valid point on how warranty costs are hidden in the selling price. Years ago I had a work colleague who had a mk 1 Golf which at the time was a quite revolutionary car. It was forever going wrong to such an extent that even before his warranty expired he got rid of it. He then bought a Datsun Cherry and when I looked over the Datsun the difference compared to the Golf was chalk and cheese. The layout and precision of pipe and cable runs in the Datsun engine bay made the Golf look as it it had been all thrown into the engine bay. As his ownership progressed he told me that Datsun warranty costs worked out at less than 1/10 of Volkswagens. And in most surveys Japanese cars are still consistently placed above European mainstream and prestige makes. Unfortunately for us caravanners there is no realistic competition to the home grown products. With cars the Japanese and latterly Koreans competed in the domestic markets price band. But German caravans aren’t pitched at the mainstream market to provide serious competition to UK producers. Rock and a hard place spring to mind. It would be really great to see a UK maker grab quality by the horns and make it a USP.
ProfJohnL said:
I agree.
The dealer was requested to rectify the issues we identified on the day of collection, and subsequent issues only identified/occurring after actual use. I have tightened 1 screw to save a mirror from possibly smashing.
Is it right that I, the customer am the final QA? No... but I don't think dealers or manufacturers have the people with such a critical eye as the new owner who has all the time they like to inspect the product.
On your final point, what authority would a dealer have to reject a caravan? Surely, if they did that enough they would lose their franchise?
CustardAvenger said:
Well they should have time! - and incidentaly the final customers cannot be Quality Assurance, as only a supplier can assure the quality of a product or service, not the user. Perhaps you meant Quality Inspector.
If the caravan industries principles were applied elsewhere, I think there would be a massive outcry if travellers were left to fault find aircraft, Or patients were given un tested drugs or procedures. I. sure you could find numerous other examples of where the caravban industries Quality Managment procedures would be deemed unsafe.
The most effective quality systems are those where operators at each stage of a process are held responsible for the work they carry out, and where their imediate customer (i.r. the next process) has some form of sanction such as returning non conforming goods to the previous stage.
No one likes a backlog of returned work, and the best option is to make sure what you do is right first time. A lesson the caravan industry shows no sign of accepting.
CustardAvenger said:
That is one of the problems which activley encourages the present diabolical practices of the industry. Unlike retail sales where the customer has enshrined rites to return fauly good to their supplier, commecrial contracts do not benefit from the same protection. YET, caravan manufacturers are all too ready to return fault goods to their suppliers - I know becasue I used to work for one supplier, and we constantly received returnd product from manufactures who claimed the products were faulty when installed - in most cases becasue the caravan assemblers had damaged them, or stripped fittings from them Or theyd been stored outside in the rain, or fork lift trucks had driven their forks through them. We defrinately did not supply them in that condition, and we had documatary evidence that each applaince had to be fully functional before its serial number could be issued and applied.just before it was packaged.
If ALL the dealers decided to retrun faulty goods to the manufacturers, it would soon make the manufactures sit up.
I appreciate rejecting a caravan might upset the maker but the maker relies on the dealer to sell their caravans. If they drop the dealer they lose sales so the dealer does have some power there. Having said that in most cases the problems are easily fixed and the dealer should have those rectified before the customer arrives.
I suspect any PDI is done the day before the customer calls so anything that needs time to sort out cannot be fixed so they just hand it over.
I suspect any PDI is done the day before the customer calls so anything that needs time to sort out cannot be fixed so they just hand it over.
ReverendJT said:
:lol: It was a legacy from Xbox Live. Just reused the name.[/quote]
Mine is also my gaming handle.
I agree that manufacturers should employ better quality inspectors, or at least employ some in the first place! It just sounds like a lack of pride and care in what they are producing. You wouldn't expect to pick anything else up as new or old with as many issues.
Imagine the free marketing companies would get from forums such as this if one if the manufacturers could get it right.
I often caravan, not sure if that's the correct terminology, with a friend who is an electro/mechanical architect and he designed a gear box for 'the most popular van in the UK' some years ago. The manufacturer of the part decided it didn't require the dust cap in the design as it would be cheaper without it, they are squeezed on price massively. And that's exactly what happened. All of them started dying for want of a point, point of a penny part. It seems to be a perennial problem that he still sees to this day; manufacturers won't buy the part he specs because another part is cheaper and the meantime between failures will last just up to the end of the warranty period. So it is a conspiracy, not a theory!
Imagine the free marketing companies would get from forums such as this if one if the manufacturers could get it right.
I often caravan, not sure if that's the correct terminology, with a friend who is an electro/mechanical architect and he designed a gear box for 'the most popular van in the UK' some years ago. The manufacturer of the part decided it didn't require the dust cap in the design as it would be cheaper without it, they are squeezed on price massively. And that's exactly what happened. All of them started dying for want of a point, point of a penny part. It seems to be a perennial problem that he still sees to this day; manufacturers won't buy the part he specs because another part is cheaper and the meantime between failures will last just up to the end of the warranty period. So it is a conspiracy, not a theory!
The three essentials for caravan makers are price, style, weight. Reliability is not a consideration.
Just a follow up in case anyone's interested.
We did buy a new Swift Sprite (dealer special) in the end, the difference in finishing seemed to be the dealer that i bought it from had bothered to fix all but one issue before they put it on the forecourt for sale - which gives me the impression they care. The issue being that the front drawer doesn't quite close when the soft close came into play..
Since having the 'van for a few weeks the only other issue we've had is one lock on the gas container pops out, which the dealer has on order (under warranty).
We are really happy with the quality so far. The dealer was MG Caravans in Royston.
Thank you again for all the advice.
ReverendJT
We did buy a new Swift Sprite (dealer special) in the end, the difference in finishing seemed to be the dealer that i bought it from had bothered to fix all but one issue before they put it on the forecourt for sale - which gives me the impression they care. The issue being that the front drawer doesn't quite close when the soft close came into play..
Since having the 'van for a few weeks the only other issue we've had is one lock on the gas container pops out, which the dealer has on order (under warranty).
We are really happy with the quality so far. The dealer was MG Caravans in Royston.
Thank you again for all the advice.
ReverendJT
Hi ReverendJT,
Glad to hear you didn't let my list of gripes put you off!!
In the meantime i've had 1 or 2 more issues, that I think you should be aware of just in case. I previously mentioned that the trim panel above the microwave fell off. Well it fell off again, but got damaged on it's way down. Its only held on by 4 magnetic cabinet catches (on the 2018 variant) so had to be replaced under warranty. The dealer has now screwed it into place. In addition to this the Awning Light seemed to have gone mouldy inside. Had gotten cracked somehow (i have no proper awning which could have hit it) and let water in. Was also replaced under warranty.
One thing I have resolved myself is a grinding/creaking hitch. I have always cleaned the towball before a trip, but the hitch would sometimes creak and groan at low speeds; was particularly bad on the way home from Cornwall the other week, but was silent on the way down after I had proactively cleaned both ball and hitch. Seems that I have to clean the towball and the inside of the hitch with brake cleaner before every journey to stop the noise.
Glad to hear you didn't let my list of gripes put you off!!
In the meantime i've had 1 or 2 more issues, that I think you should be aware of just in case. I previously mentioned that the trim panel above the microwave fell off. Well it fell off again, but got damaged on it's way down. Its only held on by 4 magnetic cabinet catches (on the 2018 variant) so had to be replaced under warranty. The dealer has now screwed it into place. In addition to this the Awning Light seemed to have gone mouldy inside. Had gotten cracked somehow (i have no proper awning which could have hit it) and let water in. Was also replaced under warranty.
One thing I have resolved myself is a grinding/creaking hitch. I have always cleaned the towball before a trip, but the hitch would sometimes creak and groan at low speeds; was particularly bad on the way home from Cornwall the other week, but was silent on the way down after I had proactively cleaned both ball and hitch. Seems that I have to clean the towball and the inside of the hitch with brake cleaner before every journey to stop the noise.
Nothings fallen off yet, fingers crossed it won't. You would think 4 magnets would be enough to hold a tiny bit of fake wood.
And we'll see about the hitch, haven't had it long enough yet.
And we'll see about the hitch, haven't had it long enough yet.
I'm glad you are pleased with what you have getting & I'm glad that you weren't put off also buy my comments since !
Since all my things have been done nothing else has gone wrong since last year . Ive aint had any noisiness coming from hitch and I'm away every few weeks with ours so hopefully all ok .
Good luck with your van enjoy what you have .
Craig .
Since all my things have been done nothing else has gone wrong since last year . Ive aint had any noisiness coming from hitch and I'm away every few weeks with ours so hopefully all ok .
Good luck with your van enjoy what you have .
Craig .
Gi,
We have an Alpine 2,it has had more faults than any other new caravan we've had.Having said that most of the faults have been on the fitted equipment although a few have been build quality issues.
1. "High security" door lock replaced
2 Furniture next to work top collapsed .Replaced
3. Cupboard doors (various),catches not working.
4.Had to change over cupboard function above cooker(food cupboard was above hob - changed it to dishes cupboard.)- this is a bad design feature by Sprite/Swift.
I know these vans are considered "entry level"but they will have to up their quality game.
There is no excuse for problems on an entry level model. The standard expected at law is exactly the same as if you bought the top of the range model. The problem is that the top of the range ones can be just as bad.
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