Stolen Van

[natsdad]

Hi all,

Apologies if this is in the wrong place. I bought a 2004 Bailey Wyoming in April this year but unfortunately had to part with it a month later due to lack of use. The couple that I slod it to, tried to CRiS register it and it has come back as stolen.....in 2004.
The person I bought it from had it for 4 years and had all the receipts going back to the dealer in 2004.
The dealer sold the van second hand so obviously he bought it from whoever stole it and the chain has been going since then with me being the 5th owner and so on.
The Police are involved and went to inspect the van last night and look at the altered numbers on the windows etc. Im wondering wher I stand now with regards giving the guy his money back.....he paid cash, as I did...... as if I have to then I will have to get mine back, the person I bought it from will have to get his back and so on.....could take years.

I asked the prevous owners if it was registered and he said that he had never got round to it....apparently neither had the others including the dealer who looks like he didnt even check to see if it was stolen in the first place.

I hope this makes sense.

Any help would be appreciated.

Natsdad

 

[dougie201]

Hi
It seems a bit strange that none of the previous owners got it registered!! Even the dealer!!!

Dougie.....

 

[natsdad]

It certainly does, I did think that, its almost like they tried and found out something dodgy about the van, but having it for 4 years and not registering it is something I certainly wouldnt do.
Natsdad

 

[dougie201]

Yeah neither would i, hopefully you will get a good out come to this. And if you have paperwork that can trace it back to the dealer then hopefully they will be helping the police with there enquires. But the question is, is the paperwork you have genuine. And is the dealer from 2004 ?

Dougie.....

 

[natsdad]

The Police have seized the van and the couple are after a refund from us now. Where do I stand with this.

 

[dougie201]

I personally wouldnt give them a refund until i found out where i stood legaly. You could try citizens advise or give your solicitor a phone. The police may not want you to refund any cash until they have done there investigations.
But i would get legal advise before you do anything. Sorry i cant be of any more help .

Dougie...

 

[Dustydog]

Double check that CRIS haven't made a mistake.
Consult a good Solicitor or qualified expert at a CAB.
Can you establish who really has good Legal Title to the Bailey.
Do not pay back any money at this stage.
Write t o the person from whom you bought the Bailey . Tell them the whole story. It appears they too did not have good Legal Title when they sold you the caravan.
IMO the caravan is the property of any Insurer who paid out for the original theft, assuming it was insured. I expect the Police will have to find this out. I suspect some weeks may elapse with the the Police enquiries so I would keep on their case.
Did you have the Bailey Insured? Your policy may contain a Legal Expenses section where you can get the use of a qualified Legal Expert at your Insurer's expense.

 

[Gagakev]

Sorry to hear of your problems Natsdad, but I keep asking myself why you did'nt do your own CRIS check before you brought the van, for the sake of £12.00 to £15.00, any problems would have been brought to light earlier, but on that note I do hope you sort it out.

 

[natsdad]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and if i could turn the clock back i would and check it, please dont think that i havent thought about it.
The insurance never paid out on the van and was removed from the new owners drive and put into storage awaiting the original owner to come an reclaim it......he wants it back.
This leaves the new owners wanting to claim their money back from me, either amicabally or through the courts.
I can see that from a chain of 6 people, that im goung to be the one that is out of pocket here and shouldnt be.

Natsdad

 

[NickinFrance]

The law is very specific in cases like this, go see a solicitor.

 

[chrisbee1]

One of the problems with CRIS is that is voluntary. Although I would have expected the dealer to do a check the next buyer probably thought that as he was buying from a dealer the van would be kosher and he would have comeback against the dealer if needed. Subsequent buyers might not even be aware that CRIS exists. Those of us that are interested in our hobby tend to do research, join forums etc but talking to others on site it's surprising how many just buy a 'van, hitch up and go. Apart from a two week break once a year they have no interest in caravans or anything to do with them.

 

[ProfJohnL]

This is another sad tale, and it really shows how important it is to do all the necessary cheks when buying secondhand. This is not a jibe at the OP, but where there is an established method such as CRIS for caravans and HPI for cars it really does make sense to use them.

Unfortunately regardless of how inocent you may have been inrespect to the theft, the title to the goods remains with the real owners - whether that is the people from whom it was stolen , or an insurance company if they have paid out on the theft.

As far as you are concerned, you do not have title to the caravan. If you want get your money back, the you hav e to sue the person that sold it to you. Like Nick suggests you need to get proper profesional legal advice.

 

[Beehpee]

It seems odd to me that the person who originally owned the caravan when it was stolen can possibly have any legal right to it, the van would have not been very old when it was first stolen so it would be surprising if it wasn't insured and no way that claim wouldn't be settled in the time elapsed, some people think wrongly that even tho they have been paid out by the insurance if a stolen item is later recovered that it still belongs to them, I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer would be held more responsible than private individuals as I am fairly sure if a dealer buys a car with outstanding hire purchase on it they then become liable for the money owed, at least that's what I was told years ago when I was in similar position with a car, I hope you get this all sorted and I hope you let us know on here the final outcome as it will be a lesson for all. Bp

 

[natsdad]

Apparently the insurance company havent paid out so the original owner still has the legal right to it.
Ive been on to CAB and have been advised to consult a solicitor...as I have on here. Im still in a quandry as to whether the person I sold it to, who is the 6th owner is entitled to his money back from me.

I now have another van, which is going through the CRiS process and thankfully is legitamate....at least it came back not stolen when they checked. Im not the first and certainly wont be the last erson to get caught out, but it annoys me when the new owner is demanding that he recovers the cost through me.

natsdad

 

[kelvin3]

A little confused so stay with me.
CRiS Registration
All caravans manufactured since 1992 by NCC members are recorded on the CRiS database by their unique 17 digit Vehicle Identification Number (VIN). This VIN and the caravan description are recorded on a Touring Caravan Registration Document, which is sent to the caravan's registered keeper. Even if you own a pre-1992 caravan, or imported your own caravan into the UK, you can still register it with CRiS yourself. Many insurance companies now require CRiS registration before they will issue a policy.
To apply for your caravan to be CRiS registered and electronically tagged, contact CRiS on 01722 411430 or email cris.uk@hpi.co.uk for further information.
Now I understood that pre 1998 it didn’t have to be but after this it was mandatory???

So the dealer sold it on not having the documentation. For the dealer to be the registered owner they would have to register it but it is common practice to just get the previous owner to sign that it is sold and the dealer moves this on to the subsequent buyer to complete the purchase.

Is this dealer still in business?

Natsdad don’t be too hard on these people because I am sure you would be doing the same in their shoes.

Just to confirm this, was the van stolen before the dealer, if so then the dealer is dodgy. Or because it was never paid out are the original owners dodgy and tried to pull a fast one?

 

[NickinFrance]

Im still in a quandry as to whether the person I sold it to, who is the 6th owner is entitled to his money back from me.

A Solicitor will tell you, a friend was in a similar situation with a car some years ago & the result wasn't as simple or as logical as one would have thought (I guess that's what keeps solicitors in business).
Whatever you do, don't, at this stage admit any fault or offer anything back to your buyer.

 

[chrisbee1]

Kelvin,
Although the caravan will be CRIS registered there is no requirement for the seller (or buyer) to tell them that the caravan has changed hands. It is purely voluntary. When I bought my first van (after carefully checking out the seller) I did a CRIS check. Because the last two owners hadn’t registered it and I didn’t have the name and address of the last CRIS listed owner all CRIS would tell me was that it was not reported as stolen. I was unable to get it registered in my name as the last listed owner hadn’t told CRIS he had sold it a couple of years previously and CRIS would not give me his contact details. In a nutshell, the person to whom the van is CRIS registered is NOT necessarily the legal owner.

 

[natsdad]

Is this dealer still in business?

Natsdad don’t be too hard on these people because I am sure you would be doing the same in their shoes.

Just to confirm this, was the van stolen before the dealer, if so then the dealer is dodgy. Or because it was never paid out are the original owners dodgy and tried to pull a fast one?

Kelvin,

Yes the dealer is still in business and will at some point be contacted by the police and as for being hard on the buyers, i have no intention of doing that and have put myself in their situation, but they need to put themselves in mine.....would you be happy paying nearly 7000 back without being reimbursed from the person you bought it from. Which is why im seeking advice as to exactly where I stand.

Natsdad

 

[natsdad]

chrisbee 1,
The van has 2 numbers changed on the CRiS number on the windows and the VIN plate, surely the dealer nmust have checked this when he was offered the van...isnt that what theyre supposed to do.

Ive registered my new one, but the last registered keeper was in Southampton and I bought it from Lincolnshire....not stolen thank god. From what CRiS told me they have 31 days to respond confirming the van was sold and if they dont hear then a certificate is issued to me.

Natsdad

 

[natsdad]

I agree and wish I had checked, but like I said earlier hindsight is a wonderful thing.
I am going to seek legal advice and the police are coming round next week to take a statement. My issue isnt with the person before me, its whether im legally bound to refund any money that was paid to me.

Natsdad

 

[Gagakev]

Something does'nt quite add up here;
1. OK you didnt check it or register it with CRIS.
2. Your telling us that none of the four previous owners/dealer had it registered/checked, sorry but find that really hard to believe.
3. Taken from your first post;
I bought a 2004 Bailey Wyoming in April this year but unfortunately had to part with it a month later due to lack of use
4. Taken from a following reply
I now have another van, which is going through the CRiS process and thankfully is legitamate....at least it came back not stolen
Why would you sell a van due to lack of use then buy another just a few weeks later????
Is it going through the CRIS or has it been through the process.

.

 

[natsdad]

gagakev please dont try and mae me out to look like im in the wrong here.
The day i bought the van i was offered a job, since i didnt think i was going to get the use out of it i decided to sell it. I think i probably used it twice while i had it...my mrs spent some time by herself in it while i was working.
I have since discovered that i have more time on my hands and decided to get another one which is going through the cris registration process.

Hopefully you feel that ive explained myself enough. I asked for advice on here as i thought it was he best place to come. Everyone has without a doubt been more helpfull than i can possibly imagine and a big thank you goes to them.

And yes im telling you that it quite clearly has never been cris registered. Please dont make me out to be a liar.

 

[Sproket]

Something does'nt quite add up here;
1. OK you didnt check it or register it with CRIS.
2. Your telling us that none of the four previous owners/dealer had it registered/checked, sorry but find that really hard to believe.
3. Taken from your first post;
I bought a 2004 Bailey Wyoming in April this year but unfortunately had to part with it a month later due to lack of use
4. Taken from a following reply
I now have another van, which is going through the CRiS process and thankfully is legitamate....at least it came back not stolen
Why would you sell a van due to lack of use then buy another just a few weeks later????
Is it going through the CRIS or has it been through the process.

.

How's about a new avtar for Gaga ?
No fee required

 

[DeliDave_]

imho you looked at the paperwork and bought it and sold it in good faith and as others have found hindsight is wonderful.I would just say to the buyer that you will be happy to repay him when you have been repaid and leave it at that.If he takes court proceedings you will have to do the same to your seller.Hopefully the dealer who should be experienced and check things out will take the hit,he is the one who should have known better.

 

[natsdad]

Deli Dave_374550494
Thanks ever so much for that reply, thats exactly it.
And ill take that advice.

Thanks again

Natsdad