Surprised at lack of comment on caravan industry economic issues.

[Buckman]

People don;t pay the same VED. New cars are very different for the 1st year. "expensive" cars are different for the next 5. Cars older than 2017 vary by CO2. Commercial vehicles have another structure (that I don't even pretend know).
The government will only loose out if they set the mileage rate or weight multiplier incorrectly.
Evasion is rife in all uses. Use of lower duty diesel in vehicles that are not allowed to use it is another form. Making a tax hard to evade is a good idea, but nothing will be foolproof.
Maybe the system uses the MOT to track them. Or maybe they carry on paying VED, and only newer cars use road pricing.
Which is , I think, why road pricing is inevitable.

I meant the whether you have the exactly the same car i.e. Ford Fiesta and one does only 100 miles a year and the other 100000 miles they both pay the same VAT! Therefore the income to the government is greater through the current VED system than using a mileage indicator otherwise the government would have implemented the system years ago.

 

[Buckman]

Why would it cost millions? Every year cars over three have to attend an MOT centre where the milage data is already collected. It would not be massively difficult to use that data to generate a a road tax valuation. It would mean that all cars including new ones would have to read by an approved assessor.

If the basis of a charge is miles driven, then fairest way is to simply set a milage charge of say 2p per mile and multiply that by the number of miles travelled. That way those who use the most pay the most. If that does not generate the necessary income, the government can set the the cost per mile to a higher amount.

So after 3 years and at the first MOT, the owner of the new car is hit with massive charges. What if the car is sold within the first 3 years. Then of course if a car sits on the forecourt for several months, but is taken on test drives using garage plates, does the new owner pay for those additional miles? What if the car has multiple drivers with only one registered owner? Too many "what ifs".

 

[Sam Vimes]

Nissan Leaf's are well known for having poor battery management. They are the exception rather than the rule.

You're probably right but I think there's a general perception that understanding the life of an EV battery is important. Which is why I believe manufacturers spell out the warranty T&C's for the battery. Typically 8years/100,000 miles. The cynic in me thinks that with all the telemetry in cars that there will be get out clauses. Too frequent rapid charging;ditto over charging; ditto under charging etc.

 

[Sam Vimes]

The system in New Zealand that used to be just for Diesel Cars, i.e pay per mile, has now been extended to EVs. You buy in advance a certain amount of miles and then this gets checked against what you actually did when it's time for the WOF (read MOT in the UK).

I would imagine that change of ownership is taken into account somehow.

 

[otherclive]

So after 3 years and at the first MOT, the owner of the new car is hit with massive charges. What if the car is sold within the first 3 years. Then of course if a car sits on the forecourt for several months, but is taken on test drives using garage plates, does the new owner pay for those additional miles? What if the car has multiple drivers with only one registered owner? Too many "what ifs".

Our multiple drivers are blissfully unaware of what a fuel station is. So no change there.

 

[Tobes]

I meant the whether you have the exactly the same car i.e. Ford Fiesta and one does only 100 miles a year and the other 100000 miles they both pay the same VAT! Therefore the income to the government is greater through the current VED system than using a mileage indicator otherwise the government would have implemented the system years ago.

Again - not necessarily. If the VED is £190, a road pricing is set at 2p per mile, your example yields a result of £2,002 to the exchequer.

If the average mileage is 8,000 pa and current VED is £200, setting the mileage cost at 2.5p per mile yields the same return for average users paying average VED.

Job done?

The decision not to implement years ago, is (I suspect) in part mechanics (how to collect, what if you drive abroad or off road), and part political will (making previously "free" things "paid for" is unpopular, and does not collect votes.

 

[Tobes]

So after 3 years and at the first MOT, the owner of the new car is hit with massive charges. What if the car is sold within the first 3 years. Then of course if a car sits on the forecourt for several months, but is taken on test drives using garage plates, does the new owner pay for those additional miles? What if the car has multiple drivers with only one registered owner? Too many "what ifs".

Mileage is recorded at ownership change today. That can be used to generate a bill, just like when you read a meter when you move house.

For new cars, you can have the information registered each year - outside of MOT. It's also perfectly possible to set up a monthly or weekly, or daily update that can issue more frequent bills to reduce massive bill events. Very similar to smart meters.

 

[RogerL]

Again - not necessarily. If the VED is £190, a road pricing is set at 2p per mile, your example yields a result of £2,002 to the exchequer.

If the average mileage is 8,000 pa and current VED is £200, setting the mileage cost at 2.5p per mile yields the same return for average users paying average VED.

Job done?

The decision not to implement years ago, is (I suspect) in part mechanics (how to collect, what if you drive abroad or off road), and part political will (making previously "free" things "paid for" is unpopular, and does not collect votes.

Road pricing doesn't need to replace VED, although it could - our present VED system is quite adequate for all types of vehicles.

Road pricing needs to replace the fuel duty that IC vehicles presently pay every time they refuel.

Presently VED raises £7.4 billion while fuel duty raises £29.3 billion including VAT on the duty.

 

[Buckman]

Again - not necessarily. If the VED is £190, a road pricing is set at 2p per mile, your example yields a result of £2,002 to the exchequer.

If the average mileage is 8,000 pa and current VED is £200, setting the mileage cost at 2.5p per mile yields the same return for average users paying average VED.

Job done?

The decision not to implement years ago, is (I suspect) in part mechanics (how to collect, what if you drive abroad or off road), and part political will (making previously "free" things "paid for" is unpopular, and does not collect votes.

I think you are completely misunderstanding my post. Do you have access to a national vehicle database showing vehicle mileages as I do not have that access so I am using purely guess work? I took into consideration that the majority of cars probably do less than 12000 miles a year and at 2p per mile that is £240. If you only do 8000 miles a year that is £160 so a loss to the treasury of £80. These are examples and not cast iron proof etc. Just simple guess work.

You're probably right but I think there's a general perception that understanding the life of an EV battery is important. Which is why I believe manufacturers spell out the warranty T&C's for the battery. Typically 8years/100,000 miles. The cynic in me thinks that with all the telemetry in cars that there will be get out clauses. Too frequent rapid charging;ditto over charging; ditto under charging etc.

If you sell second hand cars for a living, under CRA 2015 would you be keen on selling a 10 year old EV when there is a possibility the battery could fail within 6 years or it could last another 10 years? It would not be hard for the consumer to claim a new battery a couple of years after purchase. A very grey area for second hand dealers.

 

[Dustydog]

If you sell second hand cars for a living, under CRA 2015 would you be keen on selling a 10 year old EV when there is a possibility the battery could fail within 6 years or it could last another 10 years? It would not be hard for the consumer to claim a new battery a couple of years after purchase. A very grey area for second hand dealers.

I’ m not sure that is correct🤔

My take on CRA 2015 is that it also seeks to be reasonable to the seller.

Surely in your scenario the purchaser cannot recover more than their original purchase price?

 

[Buckman]

I’ m not sure that is correct🤔

My take on CRA 2015 is that it also seeks to be reasonable to the seller.

Surely in your scenario the purchaser cannot recover more than their original purchase price?

Within the first 6 months the purchaser could claim and get a full refund less mileage. After the first 6 months probably not, but they may be able to get the dealer to do a part payment towards the cost of the repair if they can prove the fault was inherent and there from day of purchase. As said a very grey area and dealers may not want to take the chance or if they do, offer a very low trade in price. at that point it may be better for the owner to try and sell privately for a higher price. As said it is a very grey area.

Our Lexus dealer has numerous immaculate EVs on their forecourt that come with a full warranty as if new and some where there still 3 months later. They may have been sold since as we have not been there for the past 6 weeks.

 

[otherclive]

Within the first 6 months the purchaser could claim and get a full refund less mileage. After the first 6 months probably not, but they may be able to get the dealer to do a part payment towards the cost of the repair if they can prove the fault was inherent and there from day of purchase. As said a very grey area and dealers may not want to take the chance or if they do, offer a very low trade in price. at that point it may be better for the owner to try and sell privately for a higher price. As said it is a very grey area.

Our Lexus dealer has numerous immaculate EVs on their forecourt that come with a full warranty as if new and some where there still 3 months later. They may have been sold since as we have not been there for the past 6 weeks.

It would be difficult to prove a battery was faulty when really what this discussion is about is battery life, and it’s a fact that batteries do have a finite life during which their ability to store charge deteriorates. That’s not a fault. My wife has just paid Apple to replace her phone battery in a 4 year old phone as charge was below 80%.

 

[JTQ]

I agree entirely that proving a battery was defective at time of sale will be quite a challenge.

As said, unless its brand new it will have a level of capacity degradation.
However, surely if the battery could power the vehicle off the forecourt it will not have "failed" even if not in the first flush of youth at time of sale?

I suspect as with some other lithium batteries it is quite possible to interrogate the system and get its state of health, probably that can be if it is not already one aspect the sales contract can be based on, protecting the vender from CRA 2015 claims in respect to the batteries condition.

 

[RogerL]

It would be difficult to prove a battery was faulty when really what this discussion is about is battery life, and it’s a fact that batteries do have a finite life during which their ability to store charge deteriorates. That’s not a fault. My wife has just paid Apple to replace her phone battery in a 4 year old phone as charge was below 80%.

It seems that the rate of capacity deterioration for any car or phone battery is very dependent on the charging regime - allowing the capacity to drop too low is an obvious thing to avoid but rapid charging, particularly from 80-100% should be avoided as well.

So for cars, those used for shorter journeys and charged at home slowly will have excellent battery life for many years - but those used predominantly for longer journeys with a high proportion of rapid charging are likely to deteriorate quicker - and best avoided as used buys.

I've noticed that the battery only lasts about a year on our "old" Moto phone but my newer Pixel has an option to limit charging to 80%, designed to extend the battery life

 

[Buckman]

It would be difficult to prove a battery was faulty when really what this discussion is about is battery life, and it’s a fact that batteries do have a finite life during which their ability to store charge deteriorates. That’s not a fault. My wife has just paid Apple to replace her phone battery in a 4 year old phone as charge was below 80%.

Actually discussion was about "lack of comment on caravan industry" and not batteries. Fred Drift strikes again, but it is interesting. Taking into consideration the cost of the car, its age and mileage, as the battery is not a separate entity, if a battery does not last, it is the car as a whole unit that is regarded as being not fit for purpose and not just the battery.

 

[RogerL]

I agree entirely that proving a battery was defective at time of sale will be quite a challenge.

As said, unless its brand new it will have a level of capacity degradation.
However, surly if the battery could power the vehicle off the forecourt it will not have "failed" even if not in the first flush of youth, at time of sale?

I suspect as with some other lithium batteries it is quite possible to interrogate the system and get its state of health, probably that can be if it is not already one aspect the sales contract can be based on, protecting the vender from CRA 2015 claims in respect to the batteries condition.

If the battery develops a fault within 6 months of purchase, it's up to the seller to prove it didn't exist at point of sale, not for the buyer to prove it did exist.

 

[Dustydog]

Buckman's explanation takes us to a different scenario,
A manufacturers warranty is outside CRA as your contract is with the Dealer..
Kia for example give very long warranties and subject to the Ts&Cs will probably replace the EV battery even where the cost is greater than the car's value. .

 

[JTQ]

If the battery develops a fault within 6 months of purchase, it's up to the seller to prove it didn't exist at point of sale, not for the buyer to prove it did exist.

Point accepted.
The vehicle working, to a significant extent implies the battery has not got a "fault" in they tend to work or not

 

[Buckman]

If the battery develops a fault within 6 months of purchase, it's up to the seller to prove it didn't exist at point of sale, not for the buyer to prove it did exist.

Please do not get confused about CRA 2015 and batteries as that is a non-scenario. The battery is not bought as a separate unit as it forms part of the whole package. If car does not want to move, the car is at fault and not fit for purpose.

 

[otherclive]

Actually discussion was about "lack of comment on caravan industry" and not batteries. Fred Drift strikes again, but it is interesting. Taking into consideration the cost of the car, its age and mileage, as the battery is not a separate entity, if a battery does not last, it is the car as a whole unit that is regarded as being not fit for purpose and not just the battery.

What do you mean by “if the batttery does not last” that’s an extremely loose definition on which to possibly pursue action against the seller.

 

[otherclive]

It seems that the rate of capacity deterioration for any car or phone battery is very dependent on the charging regime - allowing the capacity to drop too low is an obvious thing to avoid but rapid charging, particularly from 80-100% should be avoided as well.

So for cars, those used for shorter journeys and charged at home slowly will have excellent battery life for many years - but those used predominantly for longer journeys with a high proportion of rapid charging are likely to deteriorate quicker - and best avoided as used buys.

I've noticed that the battery only lasts about a year on our "old" Moto phone but my newer Pixel has an option to limit charging to 80%, designed to extend the battery life

When Apple replaced my wife’s phone battery the technician showed her the historical charging regime. When it was charged, state of charge when low on charge, how much charge went in etc.The phones BMS adjusts its performance to get as much duration as it can from the deteriorating battery. So I guess a EV cars battery will do similar.

 

[Buckman]

What do you mean by “if the batttery does not last” that’s an extremely loose definition on which to possibly pursue action against the seller.

It was meant to be loose as at present I am not aware of any scenario where such an issue has happened on 10 year or older EV. I don't think there were many EVs around pre 2015?

As pointed out previously, the battery is not the issue under CRA 2015, but the car is an issue.

 

[Dustydog]

It was meant to be loose as at present I am not aware of any scenario where such an issue has happened on 10 year or older EV. I don't think there were many EVs around pre 2015?

As pointed out previously, the battery is not the issue under CRA 2015, but the car is an issue.

So I pay £5k for an 8 year old EV with a 6 month “insurance “type warranty.
A penny to a pound it will exclude the battery.

Battery fails totally in month 5.

Will I get a new battery?

Or will,I get my £5 k back less an amount for usage?

 

[Sam Vimes]

When Apple replaced my wife’s phone battery the technician showed her the historical charging regime. When it was charged, state of charge when low on charge, how much charge went in etc.The phones BMS adjusts its performance to get as much duration as it can from the deteriorating battery. So I guess a EV cars battery will do similar.

Slight Fred Drift. Some years back Apple lost a Class Action law case because they were throttling back the performance of the phones without letting the owners know. This was to extend battery life.

Apple pays out over claims it deliberately slowed down iPhones

The tech giant is compensating US customers and faces similar allegations in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Buckman]

So I pay £5k for an 8 year old EV with a 6 month “insurance “type warranty.
A penny to a pound it will exclude the battery.

Battery fails totally in month 5.

Will I get a new battery?

Or will,I get my £5 k back less an amount for usage?

Under CRA 2015 the car is covered in month 5, but you need to give the dealer one chance at a repair. CRA 2015 over rides any warranty which is in addition to your rights. The dealer cannot exclude the battery.