Surprised at lack of comment on caravan industry economic issues.

[Dustydog]

Under CRA 2015 the car is covered in month 5, but you need to give the dealer one chance at a repair. CRA 2015 over rides any warranty which is in addition to your rights. The dealer cannot exclude the battery.

Agreed but am I correct the Dealer’s liability cannot be greater than the selling price?

 

[Buckman]

Agreed but am I correct the Dealer’s liability cannot be greater than the selling price?

True, but at that point you simply hand back the vehicle and get a refund. After the first 6 months the refund or battery replacement probably works on a pro rata basis taking into account mileage done, age etc. However in the fist year I would expect the full cost to be borne by the dealer if they wanted to go head with a battery replacement. Probably cheaper for them to issue a refund.

Hence my stating in an earlier post, dealers may be reluctant to trade in older EVs. However if the car has a full dealership service history, the battery could have a manufacture warranty for 15 or more years. Our Lexus has that warranty, but it is a hybrid. Not sure about manufacturer warranty on a full EV?

 

[RogerL]

The reality of EV batteries is that total failure is extremely rare - but gradual deterioration over time is normal - the level at which deterioration becomes unacceptable is usually defined in any warranty terms, not in consumer legislation - so is a grey area.

 

[Dustydog]

FredcDrift

Sons Volvo Recharge recommends not charging above 80%
0-80% charge takes same time as 80-100%.

Rapid charge whilst not barred is not recommended. As said earlier this shortens the batteries life and long term performance.

You have to ask why the EV manufacturers don’t use the 80% charge as the basis for all their miles per charge claims😉

Maybe Tesla are different with their rapid chargers?

 

[Tobes]

Road pricing doesn't need to replace VED, although it could - our present VED system is quite adequate for all types of vehicles.

Road pricing needs to replace the fuel duty that IC vehicles presently pay every time they refuel.

Presently VED raises £7.4 billion while fuel duty raises £29.3 billion including VAT on the duty.

Very good point...

 

[Hutch]

FredcDrift

Sons Volvo Recharge recommends not charging above 80%
0-80% charge takes same time as 80-100%.

Rapid charge whilst not barred is not recommended. As said earlier this shortens the batteries life and long term performance.

You have to ask why the EV manufacturers don’t use the 80% charge as the basis for all their miles per charge claims😉

Maybe Tesla are different with their rapid chargers?

My mobile phone is the same. Recharge upto 85% .
Plug in charger one way round and it is slow charging, turn the connector round and it's fast charging.

 

[Tobes]

I think you are completely misunderstanding my post. Do you have access to a national vehicle database showing vehicle mileages as I do not have that access so I am using purely guess work? I took into consideration that the majority of cars probably do less than 12000 miles a year and at 2p per mile that is £240. If you only do 8000 miles a year that is £160 so a loss to the treasury of £80. These are examples and not cast iron proof etc. Just simple guess work.

I don't, but the DVLA does. From an RAC article this year, "The average annual mileage of a car in the UK in 2024 was 7,000 miles, according to the Department of Transport - but if you’re a driver who uses your car a lot less than that, you could be classed as a low mileage driver"

If you sell second hand cars for a living, under CRA 2015 would you be keen on selling a 10 year old EV when there is a possibility the battery could fail within 6 years or it could last another 10 years? It would not be hard for the consumer to claim a new battery a couple of years after purchase. A very grey area for second hand dealers.

How is that any different to selling a used ICE and the cam bel failing destroying the engine? Surely it's exactly the same? The difference being, an ODBII reader will tell you the state of the battery, and its charging history, but it wont tell you the state of the cam belt.

 

[Buckman]

The reality of EV batteries is that total failure is extremely rare - but gradual deterioration over time is normal - the level at which deterioration becomes unacceptable is usually defined in any warranty terms, not in consumer legislation - so is a grey area.

However if a dealership sells a car with a battery that has deteriorated beyond reasonable, the dealer is still responsible for the repair and there is no argument against legislation passed by parliament. However after the first 6 months, it is up to the consumer to prove that the issue with the car existed at time of purchase.

 

[Buckman]

I don't, but the DVLA does. From an RAC article this year, "The average annual mileage of a car in the UK in 2024 was 7,000 miles, according to the Department of Transport - but if you’re a driver who uses your car a lot less than that, you could be classed as a low mileage driver"


How is that any different to selling a used ICE and the cam bel failing destroying the engine? Surely it's exactly the same? The difference being, an ODBII reader will tell you the state of the battery, and its charging history, but it wont tell you the state of the cam belt.

Normally you provide wise answers, but it seems that my posts have totally lost you so I give up on your questions.

 

[Tobes]

I agree entirely that proving a battery was defective at time of sale will be quite a challenge.

As said, unless its brand new it will have a level of capacity degradation.
However, surely if the battery could power the vehicle off the forecourt it will not have "failed" even if not in the first flush of youth at time of sale?

I suspect as with some other lithium batteries it is quite possible to interrogate the system and get its state of health, probably that can be if it is not already one aspect the sales contract can be based on, protecting the vender from CRA 2015 claims in respect to the batteries condition.

THIS - it's entirely possible to query the battery and produce a health report. It can done using a £25 ODBII reader and a piece of free software for an iPhone or android device. It takes 2 mins and produces all the battery health data.

 

[Tobes]

It seems that the rate of capacity deterioration for any car or phone battery is very dependent on the charging regime - allowing the capacity to drop too low is an obvious thing to avoid but rapid charging, particularly from 80-100% should be avoided as well.

So for cars, those used for shorter journeys and charged at home slowly will have excellent battery life for many years - but those used predominantly for longer journeys with a high proportion of rapid charging are likely to deteriorate quicker - and best avoided as used buys.

I've noticed that the battery only lasts about a year on our "old" Moto phone but my newer Pixel has an option to limit charging to 80%, designed to extend the battery life

This is not quite true. Using the battery to 100% and 0% is _not_ harmful. Leaving it full or empty for an extended period of time is.

 

[RogerL]

However if a dealership sells a car with a battery that has deteriorated beyond reasonable, the dealer is still responsible for the repair and there is no argument against legislation passed by parliament. However after the first 6 months, it is up to the consumer to prove that the issue with the car existed at time of purchase.

What's the legal definition of "reasonable" ?

I've used old car batteries as caravan leisure batteries which probably only had 20% of their original capacity, but quite adequate on EHU - if a dealer sold that, has it deteriorated beyond reasonable?

 

[Tobes]

FredcDrift

Sons Volvo Recharge recommends not charging above 80%
0-80% charge takes same time as 80-100%.

The recommendation is not to charge above 80% unless you need to. The specific recommendation is not to leave the battery at high states of charge for extended periods of time.

From the Volvo web site

High state of charge​

Important​

The traction battery can sustain damage if the car's battery level is kept very high for a long period of time.
For regular charging, battery wear can be reduced by selecting a target battery level lower than 100%. Only charge to 100% if the full range is needed for your next trip.

If you are leaving the car plugged in for charging without any immediate plans to drive it, select the target battery level recommended in the car's charging view.

Rapid charge whilst not barred is not recommended. As said earlier this shortens the batteries life and long term performance.

You have to ask why the EV manufacturers don’t use the 80% charge as the basis for all their miles per charge claims😉

Because there is absolutely no constraint on using all 100% of the battery. It's a totally valid thing to do. especially if charged from home before a long trip.

By far and away the biggest reason not to charge beyond 80% is the charging curve. I.e. it just takes much longer.

Maybe Tesla are different with their rapid chargers?

No - they are no different with their chargers, but have different software and rules in their cars being more or less aggressive with their use of the battery. In any Tesla made after about 2022, they use LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries, which have a longer life, more stable chemistry, and contain no Cobalt, than LiMnCo (Lithium Manganese Cobalt), but has a lower energy density and lower charge speed. The bigger Volvo battery is LiMnCo, the smaller is LiFePo4.

 

[Tobes]

True, but at that point you simply hand back the vehicle and get a refund. After the first 6 months the refund or battery replacement probably works on a pro rata basis taking into account mileage done, age etc. However in the fist year I would expect the full cost to be borne by the dealer if they wanted to go head with a battery replacement. Probably cheaper for them to issue a refund.

Hence my stating in an earlier post, dealers may be reluctant to trade in older EVs. However if the car has a full dealership service history, the battery could have a manufacture warranty for 15 or more years. Our Lexus has that warranty, but it is a hybrid. Not sure about manufacturer warranty on a full EV?

If it's a Lexus EV, presumably it would be offered the same courtesy?

 

[Buckman]

What's the legal definition of "reasonable" ?

I've used old car batteries as caravan leisure batteries which probably only had 20% of their original capacity, but quite adequate on EHU - if a dealer sold that, has it deteriorated beyond reasonable?

That would be for a court to decide and not us mere plebs, but a court would use age, cost and state of the EV car when making a decision i.e. a 10 year old EV car costing £20k, low mileage and in good condition, one would expect the battery to last at least 5 years. By the same token, the same car costing £5k or less with high mileage,scrapes etc one would expect the battery to only last 2- 3 years as it probably would have been subject to numerous recharging.

 

[Tobes]

Normally you provide wise answers, but it seems that my posts have totally lost you so I give up on your questions.

I think there are two questions.
1) does change from VED to road pricing result in a loss of revenue to the exchequer? The answer to that is it depends on the price point of the mileage driven and total number of miles. The DVLA have _all_ of that information _today_. They know the annual mileage of every car over 3 years old as it's declared in the MOT, and they know the mileage of every new car when it reaches 3 years old. They also know the cost of VED for all those cars. So to set an exchequer revenue neutral price, you add up the annual VED for all cars and devide by the annual mileage. That sets you a road price cost.

BIG FACTOR - this ignores all of the revenue from fuel duty and VAT on fuel. That needs working in to the calculation too, but again - it's a known quantity, and could be accounted for.

2) Is there a way to know the exact mileage of every car? I think this is what you are getting at, and would require some investment. The simplest way is to record at every MOT and owner change, but it still leaves the question of off road miles or foreign miles and how to deal with them.

 

[Tobes]

That would be for a court to decide and not us mere plebs, but a court would use age, cost and state of the EV car when making a decision i.e. a 10 year old EV car costing £20k, low mileage and in good condition, one would expect the battery to last at least 5 years. By the same token, the same car costing £5k or less with high mileage,scrapes etc one would expect the battery to only last 2- 3 years as it probably would have been subject to numerous recharging.

The major element here though, is you can simply ask the car. The dealer can do it. The user can do it. It's not hard, but does require a simple inexpensive tool. IMHO, it should be mandatory for _any_ EV (used or new) to be sold with a battery status record, presented in a standard format. It could easily be added to the MOT as a readout similar to the emissions test that has been added, and could be tracked with the mileage on any vehicle. It would add massive confidence to the owners and prospective buyers, and take an enormous amount of fear and speculation out of the relative mystery of the whole battery ownership and life question.

 

[otherclive]

Slight Fred Drift. Some years back Apple lost a Class Action law case because they were throttling back the performance of the phones without letting the owners know. This was to extend battery life.

Apple pays out over claims it deliberately slowed down iPhones

The tech giant is compensating US customers and faces similar allegations in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yes, now your phone tells you what it is doing wrt battery management and you can opt to keep the original speeds but the penalty being even less battery life. My point though was that batteries for EV or phones don’t act in isolation and as part of the item the battery is integrated into it and is managed as part of the total system.

 

[Dustydog]

Because there is absolutely no constraint on using all 100% of the battery. It's a totally valid thing to do. especially if charged from home before a long trip.

By far and away the biggest reason not to charge beyond 80% is the charging curve. I.e. it just takes much longer.

Thanks Tobes, we are close on everything bar one minor academic point.

The Volvo handbook does make it clear that for regular charging, battery wear can be reduced by selecting a target battery level lower than 100%. Only charge to 100% if the full range is needed for your next trip.
That does make sense.
Do you think a used EV should detail how many charges over 100% have been made? I have no idea what % of life may be reduced but it must be something otherwise the handbook wouldn’t mention it?

Son is still very happy the Volvo 90% of the time serves him very well particularly his home charging system which has storage batteries and solar panels.

 

[otherclive]

What's the legal definition of "reasonable" ?

I've used old car batteries as caravan leisure batteries which probably only had 20% of their original capacity, but quite adequate on EHU - if a dealer sold that, has it deteriorated beyond reasonable?

Warranties that I have looked at consider battery capability below 70% to be the trigger point. Makers warranties seem to be around 8 years or 100k miles although Toyota go fur the if you I have the car serviced by their dealership. The warranty is renewed annually for 12 months or 10k miles. And the car doesn’t have to have a prior FTSH. Plus 15 years for hybrid.

Toyota Warranty | Toyota Car Warranty | Toyota UK

At Toyota, we take great pride in the quality and reliability of our vehicles. Discover Toyota Relax - up to 10 years (100,000 miles) Toyota warranty.

www.toyota.co.uk

 

[otherclive]

Thanks Tobes, we are close on everything bar one minor academic point.

The Volvo handbook does make it clear that for regular charging, battery wear can be reduced by selecting a target battery level lower than 100%. Only charge to 100% if the full range is needed for your next trip.
That does make sense.
Do you think a used EV should detail how many charges over 100% have been made? I have no idea what % of life may be reduced but it must be something otherwise the handbook wouldn’t mention it?

Son is still very happy the Volvo 90% of the time serves him very well particularly his home charging system which has storage batteries and solar panels.

I’d be surprised if the charging system and BMS allowed charging over 100%.

 

[Buckman]

Warranties that I have looked at consider battery capability below 70% to be the trigger point. Makers warranties seem to be around 8 years or 100k miles although Toyota go fur the if you I have the car serviced by their dealership. The warranty is renewed annually for 12 months or 10k miles. And the car doesn’t have to have a prior FTSH.

I am not sure about this, but possibly a second hand dealer could charge up an EV car prior to delivery so battery status looks good, but in reality it may not be as good as it seems. I don't think anyone on here has a 10 or more year old car to be able to state whether this is correct or not?

Pity about the caravan industry economic woes as obviously not very important any longer. I read that Swift have posted a large loss for 2024 prior to taxation. Not good.

 

[RogerL]

I think there are two questions.
1) does change from VED to road pricing result in a loss of revenue to the exchequer? The answer to that is it depends on the price point of the mileage driven and total number of miles. The DVLA have _all_ of that information _today_. They know the annual mileage of every car over 3 years old as it's declared in the MOT, and they know the mileage of every new car when it reaches 3 years old. They also know the cost of VED for all those cars. So to set an exchequer revenue neutral price, you add up the annual VED for all cars and devide by the annual mileage. That sets you a road price cost.

BIG FACTOR - this ignores all of the revenue from fuel duty and VAT on fuel. That needs working in to the calculation too, but again - it's a known quantity, and could be accounted for.

2) Is there a way to know the exact mileage of every car? I think this is what you are getting at, and would require some investment. The simplest way is to record at every MOT and owner change, but it still leaves the question of off road miles or foreign miles and how to deal with them.

I feel sure that using the MoT recorded mileage is a non-starter for taxation - it has always been subject to abuse by a minority of owners who want to make their car more valuable when they sell it, or avoid penalties when they hand back a leased car - modern cars with electronic odometers aren't difficult to "clock" with the right box of tricks - in addition it already happens that cars can be switched between miles and km which can give a confusing MoT history.

If the MoT recorded mileage was used for VED/fuel duty replacement taxation then fraud would be widespread - I'd suggest more people cheating than not cheating.

 

[Buckman]

I feel sure that using the MoT recorded mileage is a non-starter for taxation - it has always been subject to abuse by a minority of owners who want to make their car more valuable when they sell it, or avoid penalties when they hand back a leased car - modern cars with electronic odometers aren't difficult to "clock" with the right box of tricks - in addition it already happens that cars can be switched between miles and km which can give a confusing MoT history.

If the MoT recorded mileage was used for VED/fuel duty replacement taxation then fraud would be widespread - I'd suggest more people cheating than not cheating.

On a previous car, the speedo was in kms for speedo mileage although speedo reading itself was mph. Sadly when it went for its MOT the tester recorded the kms done as miles done. In effect, for example instead of 60k miles it showed 100000 miles. Once the MOT certificate has been issued impossible to change. When selling the vehicle it created issues.

 

[otherclive]

I am not sure about this, but possibly a second hand dealer could charge up an EV car prior to delivery so battery status looks good, but in reality it may not be as good as it seems. I don't think anyone on here has a 10 or more year old car to be able to state whether this is correct or not?

Pity about the caravan industry economic woes as obviously not very important any longer. I read that Swift have posted a large loss for 2024 prior to taxation. Not good.

These are not your caravan lead acid battery hooked up to a relatively unsophisticated charger. They have comprehensive management systems to control charge and discharge. I think drift came in when a useful post by Tobes early on about tow car improvements to EVs was challenged a few posts later. Swifts problem along with Knaus and Trigano was the initial post to the thread. As Deborah M says ………..