Swift Production Line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NickinFrance]

I've only just seen Nick's post otherwise I'd have answered it in my previous post.

Not sure what happened, it seemed to take a couple of hours to show up.

When we bought our Abbey 620 three years ago from new we stayed near to the dealers in order to identify any 'issues' that came to light.I inspected the caravan very closely inside and out when it was handed over, in fact I used a check-list to ensure that I missed nothing.

That fact you did that proves (to me) that there is a problem in the caravan buyers mind that a 'perfect' caravan will not be delivered.

I'd have spotted the edging strip before I accepted the caravan,

We bought the caravan second hand at 2 years old & didn't notice it at the time we took delivery, although even if I hadn't taken it back to France that day, I still don't think I would have complained about it & since then we have found other minor niggles that even with a check list, wouldn't have found on collection.

More of us should insist on zero defects before accepting caravans at handovers then manufacturing standards would have to be maintained and supplying dealers would be forced to carry out conscientious pre delivery inspections and remedial work before handovers took place.

I disagree, I feel the dealers should insist upon zero defects on delivery, not the customer. IMHO a repair by the dealer can never be as good as perfect production item.
Also if a perfect item was sent from the factory, it wouldn't really matter how good (or bad) the dealer PDI was.

 

[Surfer]

Using SOGA it is very easy to get a manufacturer into a court room in the event that they don't want to play ball. As you can't call them as a defendent as your contract is with the dealer, you call them as a witness. Amazing how quick issues get resolved when you use this method.

However at the end of the day you should have not resorted to the courts to get a problem resolved within a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Parksy]

I disagree, I feel the dealers should insist upon zero defects on delivery, not the customer. IMHO a repair by the dealer can never be as good as perfect production item.
Also if a perfect item was sent from the factory, it wouldn't really matter how good (or bad) the dealer PDI was.

There is no such thing as a perfect production item unfortunately Nick. The manufacturer can strive to ensure that their product is perfect but human nature dictates that things can go unreported, accidents can happen after the product has left the factory but before it was sold etc so p.d.i.'s will always be necessary no matter how good the end product is post manufacture.
It amazes me that a normally sane person will accept delivery of a product usually costing over £10000 and potentially over £20000 and then not have a really good look at it before signing on the dotted line.
This is why manufacturers and dealers have previously been able to get away with defective caravans and poor pre delivery inspections which we have paid for!
100% insistence on no faults at the point of delivery by every caravan buyer would force standards to rise. These points are not aimed at any specific manufacturer or dealer network, we should all get what we have paid for when buying a new caravan no matter who made or sold it.

Used caravans which Nick mentions are a different thing altogether, the manufacturer can't be held responsible for every defect because the previous owner might have been at fault. I was under the impression that your caravan had been bought new and that you were disappointed with minor faults, as anyone would be in that instance.
Very close and comprehensive inspection is required to buy a 'perfect' used caravan, check lists are even more important as is research into known snags or faults. It might be difficult to prove that 'minor faults' mentioned by Nick were present at the time of manufacture but if it had been me I would still have mentioned them to the vendor.

Surfer makes a good point about calling manufacturers as witnesses, that would make one or two of them sit up and take notice.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

now that the three year parts warranty is expired I used a NCC approved mobile service engineer to complete a full annual service this time. The guy did a great job and was cheaper than the dealers plus we didn't have to visit Somerset for the service.

We bought our first new caravan in 2004 from a dealer 52 miles away.
Our second new van was bought in 2009 and the dealer is only 4 miles away.
In neither instance did we take the van back to the dealers for servicing or warranty work. It was all done by the same mobile engineer. It saves the hassle of getting the van to the dealers plus a saving in money.

 

[NickinFrance]

There is no such thing as a perfect production item unfortunately Nick.

Yet you expect a perfect item after a dealer has done his PDI, I contend that a perfect item should leave the factory, after all a dealer PDI is nothing more than a final inspection & rectification before the customer receives the product.

The manufacturer can strive to ensure that their product is perfect but human nature dictates that things can go unreported,

That's what 'Final Inspections' are for.

accidents can happen after the product has left the factory but before it was sold etc so p.d.i.'s will always be necessary no matter how good the end product is post manufacture.

If the caravan is properly prepared for dispatch, the only damage should be external, something a look around should notice.

Used caravans which Nick mentions are a different thing altogether, the manufacturer can't be held responsible for every defect because the previous owner might have been at fault. I was under the impression that your caravan had been bought new and that you were disappointed with minor faults, as anyone would be in that instance.

Ours was a rather special case, we bought second hand thinking that the original buyer would have had any problems rectified because we didn't want the expense of bringing the caravan back to the UK for any snagging items. Like you I had no confidence that a perfect new caravan would be supplied.

It might be difficult to prove that 'minor faults' mentioned by Nick were present at the time of manufacture but if it had been me I would still have mentioned them to the vendor.

I can't see why the original buyer would have chopped off 20mm of trim or shortened waste pipes, so guess they really were manufacturing faults.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Whoa just calm down a bit!

Both Parksy and Nick has some valid points.

No one that I know of deliberately buys a new product and wants faults, so as customers we want zero defects. Surprisingly I have never come across a manufacture that doesn’t want zero defects either, so in reality we both want the same thing.

Now we know that in reality zero defects is not a possible, there will always be some faults that can occur for what ever reason, but believe it or not it is possible get quite close with good design and diligence in the production, and at every stage that follows. So it is worth striving towards zero defects.

It doesn’t happen by accident there has to be a concerted effort by everyone involved, and it has to be driven from the top. There has to be a long term commitment and at first it does cost a little more, but where every company that has moved in this direction has found that ultimately their overall costs have been driven down, and profitability up.

 

[Parksy]

There is no such thing as a perfect production item unfortunately Nick.

Yet you expect a perfect item after a dealer has done his PDI, I contend that a perfect item should leave the factory, after all a dealer PDI is nothing more than a final inspection & rectification before the customer receives the product.

The manufacturer can strive to ensure that their product is perfect but human nature dictates that things can go unreported,

That's what 'Final Inspections' are for.

accidents can happen after the product has left the factory but before it was sold etc so p.d.i.'s will always be necessary no matter how good the end product is post manufacture.

If the caravan is properly prepared for dispatch, the only damage should be external, something a look around should notice.

Used caravans which Nick mentions are a different thing altogether, the manufacturer can't be held responsible for every defect because the previous owner might have been at fault. I was under the impression that your caravan had been bought new and that you were disappointed with minor faults, as anyone would be in that instance.

Ours was a rather special case, we bought second hand thinking that the original buyer would have had any problems rectified because we didn't want the expense of bringing the caravan back to the UK for any snagging items. Like you I had no confidence that a perfect new caravan would be supplied.

It might be difficult to prove that 'minor faults' mentioned by Nick were present at the time of manufacture but if it had been me I would still have mentioned them to the vendor.

I can't see why the original buyer would have chopped off 20mm of trim or shortened waste pipes, so guess they really were manufacturing faults.

Sorry Nick in France
I thought that this topic was about the Caravan Channel footage showing caravan production and assembly at Swifts factory in Cottingham.
Along with several other caravan owners at the time I went along on a factory visit. I took part in a discussion about quality and standards with various members of Swifts management team at that time.
While I accept that 100% perfection is difficult to achieve I believe that Swift have at least acknowledged the scale of the problem and have gone some way to addressing it.
I am satisfied with my caravan which was built by Swift. I took steps at the time of the handover to ensure that my caravan which was paid for at the time was as near to perfect as makes no difference.
My comments were meant to encourage other buyers of new caravans, which is what we were discussing, to do the same.
I'm of the opinion that if caravan buyers are less naive and trusting to luck then standards would be generally raised and the caravan industry might eventually shake off the cottage industry mentality that has caused so many problems for us, the end customer.

What I didn't expect was that for whatever reason another forum member would try to engage in some silly points scoring excersise seemingly directed at me.
Grow Up!

 

[Dustydog]

We bought our first new caravan in 2004 from a dealer 52 miles away.
Our second new van was bought in 2009 and the dealer is only 4 miles away.
In neither instance did we take the van back to the dealers for servicing or warranty work. It was all done by the same mobile engineer. It saves the hassle of getting the van to the dealers plus a saving in money.

Our dealer is worth their weight in gold but like LB it is a 90 mile round trip. Drop off the day before and collect next afternoon. Ok double journey but it saves me getting up at 6.00 am and hitching in the dark. If our dealer was second rate I'd have no hesitation in using a mobile engineer.
Our last two caravans came with a number of minor faults, loose trim, coat pegs loose etc but nothing that couldn't be fixed by me . The major one , a new worksurface, was replaced by the dealer at the first service.
The worksurface edging had come away simply because insufficient glue had been used.
When the De Havilland Mosquito was being assembled there were large signs saying don't spare the glue it costs next to nothing!
Irrespective of the Bailey and Swift videos showing "organised chaos" I do feel confident the standards have improved. Our latest Bailey has been pretty good on the whole , certainly better than the Pageant and Elddis.

I just hope in these tough economic times some idiot cost accountant doesn't start reducing the amount of glue , screws and sealant used in construction!

 

[NickinFrance]

What I didn't expect was that for whatever reason another forum member would try to engage in some silly points scoring excersise seemingly directed at me.
Grow Up!

Sorry if you feel that way, my posts certainly weren't intended that way & I don't see the 'point scoring' element in my posts.
However you are coming across as an apologist for Swift.
My position is quite simple:
I don't think piecework is conducive to something as complex as a caravan.
Dealers shouldn't be expected to rectify manufacturing faults, possibly caused by production being rushed because of piecework.
I totally agree with Prof John L that Quality is a state of mind & culture, I did an apprenticeship with a company that made electronic systems for the MoD & I remember our Chief Inspector telling me that for every stage of production & use the cost of a component failing increased by a factor of at least 10. i.e it cost less than 1p to test a resistor at Goods-inwards & ultimately could result in the loss of a submarine if it failed in service.
An extreme case but it must be cheaper for a manufacturer to 'get it right first time' than having a dealer rectify it (usually after the customer has found the fault).
I agree that quality has got better in recent years but there is still a perceived problem, no doubt inviting customers to the factory helps & lets hope they acted upon the comments made by customers during such visits.
For the record, I bought an UK manufactured caravan after having a good look at 'foreign' ones because IMHO they offered better value for money & I couldn't see that much difference in quality for what I was prepared to pay.

 

[Parksy]

What I didn't expect was that for whatever reason another forum member would try to engage in some silly points scoring excersise seemingly directed at me.
Grow Up!

Sorry if you feel that way, my posts certainly weren't intended that way & I don't see the 'point scoring' element in my posts.
However you are coming across as an apologist for Swift.

I'm not an apologist for any manufacturing company Nick, however having seen Swift caravans being made and having discussed the issues surrounding quality control with Swift management and also having bought two Swift built caravans from brand new I feel that I'm qualified to hold an opinion.
There are were some misconceptions aired earlier in this topic about production methods used by Swift and also the fact that Swift caravan assembly workers don't wear company overalls.
I'm certainly not pretending that any manufacturer is prefect, rather the opposite in fact. What I'm actually trying to do is to raise customer awareness, nobody should be too trusting when buying a caravan.
I'm of the opinion that things in the caravan industry have improved over the past five years or so but definitely not to the extent where a customer should blithely hand over upwards of ten thousand pounds, hitch up and drive away without knowing what they are buying.
I'm saying that we buy our caravans from dealers, not manufacturers and by customers taking nothing at face value and rejecting even minor faults at the time of handover dealers and by extension manufacturers will have to at least approach perfection and provide what was paid for. This hasn't always been the case as a browse through any caravan forum would prove.
It's no coincidence that the power of the end customer has increased since the internet has become widely available and understood by people who are economically active. Another reason why I believe that the industry is at a crossroads as stated earlier is that customer access to information is more readily available partly through forums such as this.
Bailey have had to redesign the Pegasus, especially the front panel, after internet complaints proved that the stone chip problem was very significant and would impact on sales if not addressed. How long would that process have taken if internet forums didn't exist I wonder?

 

[graham_somersham]

In my simple mind it appears that the industry is fixed into the fault rectification frame of mind rather than the fault prevention way of working. Surely if manufacturers continue to employ people who are happy to turn out sub standard work or purchase components with design faults it is fair that the consumers anger is directed at them. When you step back and take an honest look the caravan industry has not progressed greatly from the wooden shed on wheels era. There are some great designers in the UK but unfortunately they appear not to want to work in the caravan industry. If cars were still built using unseasoned softwood they would be laughed at but it is acceptable for caravans to by built with cheap timber that rots at the first sign of of water ingress that is frequently caused by poor design or incorrect materials such as mild steel screws used with aluminium causing galvanic corrosion.