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To Clive V

Hi Mark

Thanks for this - I do not know much about ethanol as a fuel but clearly from the article it is more widely available in the US.

Rob_Jax mentioned that Holland is using a lot more CNG because they are sitting on a lot of it. With our North Sea Oil reserves maybe we are going the LPG route because we have

a large reserve.

Perhaps the US with its enormous landmass is better suited to producing ethanol from the fermentation of waste biomass.

I would be interested in any thoughts on this.

One thing that springs to mind is that with all three alternative fuels they are simple hydrocarbons, not complex ones. This means that they will be far less polluting.

CNG - methane - one carbon atom plus 4 Hydrogens

Ethane - two carbon atoms plus 6 Hydrogens

Ethanol - as above but with an OH replacing one of the Hydrogens which makes it an alcohol and also liquid at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature range - so easier to handle than methane, ethane or propane. Same stuff as we drink in beer whisky etc. RELATIVELY safe compared to methanol that can make you go blind and can kill you.

Propane - three carbon atoms and 8 carbons.

LPG is mainly Propane with some Ethane.

I am also intrigued by how the Revenue Customs and Excise would view production of ethanol in the UK for fuel? I think I am right in saying that the whole process in the UK is highly regulated and taxed.

Wouldn't it be a shame if the UK's fiscal policies were preventing the development of what seems to be a simple and very environmentally friendly alternative fuel!

Or am I just being my normal cynical self?
 
Hi Mark

Thanks for this - I do not know much about ethanol as a fuel but clearly from the article it is more widely available in the US.

Rob_Jax mentioned that Holland is using a lot more CNG because they are sitting on a lot of it. With our North Sea Oil reserves maybe we are going the LPG route because we have

a large reserve.

Perhaps the US with its enormous landmass is better suited to producing ethanol from the fermentation of waste biomass.

I would be interested in any thoughts on this.

One thing that springs to mind is that with all three alternative fuels they are simple hydrocarbons, not complex ones. This means that they will be far less polluting.

CNG - methane - one carbon atom plus 4 Hydrogens

Ethane - two carbon atoms plus 6 Hydrogens

Ethanol - as above but with an OH replacing one of the Hydrogens which makes it an alcohol and also liquid at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature range - so easier to handle than methane, ethane or propane. Same stuff as we drink in beer whisky etc. RELATIVELY safe compared to methanol that can make you go blind and can kill you.

Propane - three carbon atoms and 8 carbons.

LPG is mainly Propane with some Ethane.

I am also intrigued by how the Revenue Customs and Excise would view production of ethanol in the UK for fuel? I think I am right in saying that the whole process in the UK is highly regulated and taxed.

Wouldn't it be a shame if the UK's fiscal policies were preventing the development of what seems to be a simple and very environmentally friendly alternative fuel!

Or am I just being my normal cynical self?
Click to expand...
I produce Ethanol from my Biomas everyday Clive :O) I've just got to perfect a way of trapping it in a bottle.
 
Hi Mark

Thanks for this - I do not know much about ethanol as a fuel but clearly from the article it is more widely available in the US.

Rob_Jax mentioned that Holland is using a lot more CNG because they are sitting on a lot of it. With our North Sea Oil reserves maybe we are going the LPG route because we have

a large reserve.

Perhaps the US with its enormous landmass is better suited to producing ethanol from the fermentation of waste biomass.

I would be interested in any thoughts on this.

One thing that springs to mind is that with all three alternative fuels they are simple hydrocarbons, not complex ones. This means that they will be far less polluting.

CNG - methane - one carbon atom plus 4 Hydrogens

Ethane - two carbon atoms plus 6 Hydrogens

Ethanol - as above but with an OH replacing one of the Hydrogens which makes it an alcohol and also liquid at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature range - so easier to handle than methane, ethane or propane. Same stuff as we drink in beer whisky etc. RELATIVELY safe compared to methanol that can make you go blind and can kill you.

Propane - three carbon atoms and 8 carbons.

LPG is mainly Propane with some Ethane.

I am also intrigued by how the Revenue Customs and Excise would view production of ethanol in the UK for fuel? I think I am right in saying that the whole process in the UK is highly regulated and taxed.

Wouldn't it be a shame if the UK's fiscal policies were preventing the development of what seems to be a simple and very environmentally friendly alternative fuel!

Or am I just being my normal cynical self?
Click to expand...
Your poor liver!

I do not think I will be having a drink at your home!

Are you coming to the wine tasting at Easter?

I will treat whatever you bring to the table with the greatest possible respect!
 
Hi guys,

One of the task groups at the EN meetings I attend is to investigate adding 5% or 10% of bio-ethanol to gasoline - well actually there is nothing stopping us from doing this today - except that everyone wants to make sure that it doesn't cause problems.

Loads of data from Brazil on bio-ethanol as a fuel, but they don't have winters like we do in Northern Europe - and we don't want to see fuel adsorbing water and freezing in the tank or any other issues arise - so there is still some test work to be completed.

One extra use for bio-ethanol will be to replace the industry sourced methanol (methyl alcohol) used to make bio-diesel. In Europe, bio-diesel is predominantly Rape seed oil methyl ester - surplus ethanol from wine (say) would let the industry make the ethyl ester instead - again more work needs to be completed.

HMC&E:

It's not only the UK, the whole of Europe very rigorously controls ethanol for tax purposes - it was quite a task just shipping the ultra pure ethanol test samples around the different participating organisations in Europe.

The bio-ethanol producer will simply add a denaturant to the ethanol before it is shipped to the refinery, and denatured ethanol is not a tax issue.

But today every country has it's own denaturant - and any possible interactions need to be studied as well - or a single denaturant agreed upon.

Robert
 
Hi Rob

Interesting point re the ethanol absorbing water then freezing - but wouldn't the ethanol act as its own antifreeze? After all my radiator fluid is currently about 25% methanol and that protects down to about -20 deg C.

But I doubt at that concentration it would want to burn well!!

Also - I thought denaturisation applied to protiens so how would a denaturant alter the ethanol so that HMC&E loose interest?

R

Clive
 
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