Tow car advice

[mfg1234blue]

Hi All,

Brand new to caravanning but looking forward to it. I am getting a liitle confused with kerb weights, maximum towing etc. Any advice would be appreciated. We are buying a Swift Sprite Major 4 EB Exclusive in the new year. MRO 1310 kgs, MTPLM 1530 kgs. We drive a 2024 Qashqai 1.3 Xtronic automatic with a towing capacity of 1800 kgs and a kerb weight of 1495 kgs. I keep reading about the 85% guide but in reality when would you ever tow with an empty car? Will I be able to tow comfortably?

 

[Hutch]

Hi All,

Brand new to caravanning but looking forward to it. I am getting a liitle confused with kerb weights, maximum towing etc. Any advice would be appreciated. We are buying a Swift Sprite Major 4 EB Exclusive in the new year. MRO 1310 kgs, MTPLM 1530 kgs. We drive a 2024 Qashqai 1.3 Xtronic automatic with a towing capacity of 1800 kgs and a kerb weight of 1495 kgs. I keep reading about the 85% guide but in reality when would you ever tow with an empty car? Will I be able to tow comfortably?

Welcome to the forum, it might help you to start a new thread with your query, be ready to get a lot of answers, and maybe more confused.
My thoughts are the same as yours , empty car never, and forget the 85% "rule" well outdated. It all depends on your driving skills and type of attitude.

 

[Mel]

Welcome to the forum. New Thread created for you
Mel

 

[Beardy]

As above, the 85% is a guide not a law. My advice to you would be to load as much as you can in the car keeping the caravan weight as low as possible and take it very steady until you're comfortable towing. Keep plenty of space between you and the car infront to avoid heavy braking and avoid towing in strong winds where possible. Towing a caravan feels strange to start with, your car will handle very differently but you soon get used to it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There can be no doubt that a caravan represents a very significant increase in the load that a car has to manage, and it should always be treated with the greatest possible respect and caution.

The 85% guidance (it was never a rule) was introduced by the UK caravan industry, but the methodology and evidence for the advice seems to be a lost secret and no-one in the industry is prepared to stand up and and take responsibility for the efficacy or reasoning of the advice. Incidentally the 85% is not the complete advice, it a actually only applies to novice caravanners, and when you are considered to be experienced (Don't ask when that happens!) the advice goes on to suggest you might approach but not exceed 100% towing ratio.

The industry steadfastly refuses to reveal the methodology and evidence they used to produce this advice, nor do they have release any evidence of its efficacy.

As you have mentioned the advice is unrealistic, and if you look more into the details, you will discover the criteria the advice uses (i.e. Kerbweight and MTPLM) are both poorly defined and as you point out the tow vehicle is very unlikely to be at its Kerbweight when towing, if nothing else it will have the weight of the towbar assembly, and the trailers nose load over the "kerbweight"

For these and other technical reasons I am no fan of the industries advice which identifies 85 and 100% figures. But I do agree that it is very sensible for caravaners to keep the weight and size of their caravans as small as is reasonably possible.

Weight ratio's are a part of what make a good outfit, but it also depends on ensuring that -

Both tow vehicle and trailer are on good roadworthy condition,
Good loading practice is used to distribute the user load in both trailer and tow vehicle,
Tyre pressures are correctly adjusted.

In addition its down to the drivers habits and their ability to read and drive to the prevailing conditions.
Remember that speed limits are different for towing, and that speed limits are limits not targets.
The time and space need to complete an manoeuvre is greater because of the weight and size of the combination.

Do not rely on friction couplers and automated trailer braking systems to make an outfit towable, they are not primary safety device to make an outfit safe to drive.

I do advice considering taking a towing course offered by the caravanning clubs. These not only provide useful towing experience and advice, they also help with some of the basic caravan setting up on site.

Based on the figures you have supplied, I do feel the car may be underweight, and possibly underpowered to tow the caravan of that size and weight

 

[Buckman]

I have never been able to find any evidence that the so called outdated 85% rule was introduced by the UK caravan industry? I am not sure even if any of the clubs introduced it as it was only a recommendation for newbies and not even a guideline?

However some caravan insurers stipulate that the caravan should not weigh more than 95% of the car's MIRO or kerbweight.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have never been able to find any evidence that the so called outdated 85% rule was introduced by the UK caravan industry? I am not sure even if any of the clubs introduced it as it was only a recommendation for newbies and not even a guideline?

However some caravan insurers stipulate that the caravan should not weigh more than 95% of the car's MIRO or kerbweight.

I use the phrase "Caravan industry" in the widest sense, becasue it definitely did come from somewhere within the industry whether it was specifically the NCC, the Clubs or manufacturers is unclear.

There is an uncorroborated story that suggests in th e early days of caravanning , there were no guidances at all about the coupling or caravans to vehicle, but there were some decidedly unsuitable combinations which began to attract government attention.

It is said the Government called together representatives from the industry and users to discuss the issues. It is said the government laid down an ultimatum to the group, that unless the number of incidents reduced, they would bring in legislation and regulations to restrict the use of towing caravans. It is said the outcome was the the start of the "industry" advice. Despite my longstanding contacts within the industry , I been unable to find any formal documentation or admittance by any person or group to the formulation or ownership of the advice.

However I distinctly remember reading and old Caravan Club publication (with imperial weights and measures) which suggested using the the weight of the caravan divided by the Kerbweight of the car - subtly different but very close to the current advice. It was impractical as very few caravanners have any reasonable means of measuring their caravans weight to be able to do the calculation. It's simpler to assume it will be virtually at its MTPLM which is what the industry advice uses.

I cannot agree with the actual figures of 85 and 100% "they" (whoever "they" were) chose, as there is no public evidence of how they were chosen and what evidence was used to inform the decision, nor has there been any formal assessment been published of its efficacy and safety benefits . The only observable coincidence is the UK government has not applied any caravan specific restrictions over the longstanding trailer construction and use regulations.

I do agree with the concept of keeping caravans as small and light weight as possible, but I have no confidence that either 85 or 100% are the most preferable values non of them guarantee safety or necessarily legality - there are occasions where applying the advice without reference to the vehicles' specifications can lead to an illegal outfit.

 

[Buckman]

Apologies I was not knocking your earlier post which was very helpful to newbies. For all we know is that the 85% could be hearsay? At one time it was suggested it was done by engineering students at Bristol University, but that has never been proved.

Not sure why the government would have been involved as legislation basically states if you exceed the gross maximum train weight of the towing vehicle it is an offence. After all many vehicles tow horse boxes which exceed the maximum gross weight of the vehicle, but are within its towing capabilities. The first time I towed a caravan, the caravan was probably well over 100% of the car's maximum gross weight, but that was way back in the early seventies.

Either way it would be interesting to know where this 85% guideline originated. I do however agree that initially someone new to towing would be wise to keep the weight of the caravan down.

 

[RogerL]

Apologies I was not knocking your earlier post which was very helpful to newbies. For all we know is that the 85% could be hearsay? At one time it was suggested it was done by engineering students at Bristol University, but that has never been proved.

Not sure why the government would have been involved as legislation basically states if you exceed the gross maximum train weight of the towing vehicle it is an offence. After all many vehicles tow horse boxes which exceed the maximum gross weight of the vehicle, but are within its towing capabilities. The first time I towed a caravan, the caravan was probably well over 100% of the car's maximum gross weight, but that was way back in the early seventies.

Either way it would be interesting to know where this 85% guideline originated. I do however agree that initially someone new to towing would be wise to keep the weight of the caravan down.

The Caravan Club had towing ratio advice for it's members in the middle of last century - the actual % has varied from 75-80-85% and the 100% advice for experienced towers added later.

The government involvement was to make the towing speed limit dependent on the towing ratio - for some time after WW2 it was 40 mph - the advent of motorways and other dual carriageways created pressure to increase it so 50 mph was permitted if the caravan/trailer's gross weight didn't exceed the towing vehicles kerbweight, ie 100%, both tow vehicle and trailer had to have external signs showing their relative weights and a 50 sticker on the rear of the trailer - the towing limit was further increased to 60 mph in the 1980s with no reference to towing ratio.

It should be noted that caravan suspension and brakes haven't changed since the 1970s although caravans have doubled in weight - my 1983 Ace Globetrotter (mid-range 4/5-berth) had a gross weight of just 800 kg.

 

[Buckman]

The government involvement was to make the towing speed limit dependent on the towing ratio - for some time after WW2 it was 40 mph - the advent of motorways and other dual carriageways created pressure to increase it so 50 mph was permitted if the caravan/trailer's gross weight didn't exceed the towing vehicles kerbweight, ie 100%, both tow vehicle and trailer had to have external signs showing their relative weights and a 50 sticker on the rear of the trailer - the towing limit was further increased to 60 mph in the 1980s with no reference to towing ratio.

Was the legislation concerning exceeding the gross maximum train weight introduced in the 1980's thus bypassing any kerbweight restrictions? Prior to this how did people tow horse boxes around? Purely asking for interest and nothing else. Thank.

 

[otherclive]

Given Prof’s long careeer in the industry and Roger’s year of involvement in caravanning and his contacts if they haven’t found the source of the 85% guidance then I’d suggest it’s a bit like trying to find the Holy Grail. But it’s a useful starting point for newbies as long as they hoist in the other good advice available on the Forum or on Club websites.

 

[RogerL]

Was the legislation concerning exceeding the gross maximum train weight introduced in the 1980's thus bypassing any kerbweight restrictions? Prior to this how did people tow horse boxes around? Purely asking for interest and nothing else. Thank.

Ford were publishing towing limits in their sales brochures in the 1970s, so that applied in addition to the 100% / 50mph rules. I don't know when plated gross train weight was introduced. Horse boxes were mainly towed by Land-Rovers

 

[RogerL]

Given Prof’s long careeer in the industry and Roger’s year of involvement in caravanning and his contacts if they haven’t found the source of the 85% guidance then I’d suggest it’s a bit like trying to find the Holy Grail. But it’s a useful starting point for newbies as long as they hoist in the other good advice available on the Forum or on Club websites.

The Caravan Club used to include towing ratio advice in the annual members' handbook, 80% in 1983 when I joined - but they weren't necessarily any good at keeping information up-to-date as they gave incorrect information about towing in the outside lane for many years, despite being told annually of the error!

 

[Hutch]

Hi All,

Brand new to caravanning but looking forward to it. I am getting a liitle confused with kerb weights, maximum towing etc. Any advice would be appreciated. We are buying a Swift Sprite Major 4 EB Exclusive in the new year. MRO 1310 kgs, MTPLM 1530 kgs. We drive a 2024 Qashqai 1.3 Xtronic automatic with a towing capacity of 1800 kgs and a kerb weight of 1495 kgs. I keep reading about the 85% guide but in reality when would you ever tow with an empty car? Will I be able to tow comfortably?

Getting back to the OP's questions, I would this the Qashqai 1.3 might struggle a bit towing a 1530kg caravan.
The MRO of a caravan is very seldom as quoted, normally much higher, and by the time you load the caravan with the very basics, your empty caravan is nearly always very close to your max weights.

 

[Gafferbill]

The OP is new to caravanning and asks a question about the suitability of their current car for towing.
Most input has been about the merits of the 85% guidance and it's origion.
Fo me the discussion admirably demonstrates why the guidance is put forward for new entrants to the world of caravanning.
New entrants are often confused by the myriad of facts and figures that they have to get their head around in order to decide on a safe suitable outfit.

My answer to the OP is to advise that the current car is unsuitable for the caravan that is on order.
The caravan is too heavy and this would likely soon be demonstrated in practice.
The 85% guidance is in place to prevent such a situation and in this case would result in a maximum weight of caravan of 1270 kgs.

The OP is looking for a comfortable tow....
for me that means a lighter caravan or a heavier and more powerful towcar.

 

[mfg1234blue]

Thanks for all the input, very helpful and very confusing at the same time (you did warn me Hutch). This may be a daft question for some but what I still can't get my around is the max towing weight quoted in the Qashqai manual. If Nissan state the 1.3 auto model can tow 1800 and the max caravan weight would at most be 1530, why is this not a good combination?

 

[RogerL]

Thanks for all the input, very helpful and very confusing at the same time (you did warn me Hutch). This may be a daft question for some but what I still can't get my around is the max towing weight quoted in the Qashqai manual. If Nissan state the 1.3 auto model can tow 1800 and the max caravan weight would at most be 1530, why is this not a good combination?

Maximum towing weights, defined by the vehicle manufacturer, apply to all types of trailers - because of the large body, touring caravans are one of the least stable types of trailer, particularly because of the large side area which acts as a sail.

 

[mfg1234blue]

Thank you Roger

 

[Buckman]

The 85% guidance is in place to prevent such a situation and in this case would result in a maximum weight of caravan of 1270 kgs.

The OP is looking for a comfortable tow....
for me that means a lighter caravan or a heavier and more powerful towcar.

Good advice, but point of order is that the 85% has never been put in place.

 

[otherclive]

Good advice, but point of order is that the 85% has never been put in place.

The source of the 85% figure has never been discovered, and for years forums have been debating it. But it is very much in place as a quick search will reveal. The Clubs, insurers guide, caravan makers, matching sites and dealerships many refer to the 85% some as a “guide” others as a “rule”. So any newbie would find it hard to avoid. But what many fail to state is that it’s a starting point for new caravanners and that it’s to be considered in the context of a broader set of measures aimed at giving a safe towing experience. Where this Forum is good is that members replies to queries do address the whole picture and not just the 85%.

 

[trevormonty]

Hi All,

Brand new to caravanning but looking forward to it. I am getting a liitle confused with kerb weights, maximum towing etc. Any advice would be appreciated. We are buying a Swift Sprite Major 4 EB Exclusive in the new year. MRO 1310 kgs, MTPLM 1530 kgs. We drive a 2024 Qashqai 1.3 Xtronic automatic with a towing capacity of 1800 kgs and a kerb weight of 1495 kgs. I keep reading about the 85% guide but in reality when would you ever tow with an empty car? Will I be able to tow comfortably?

The webpage I looked at had Qashqai (2wd) max towing at 1500kg, but it can vary between markets. If it is 1800kg then use it initially and see how you go. Don't be surprised if you need to upgrade.
If your model is fwd you will soon discovery why most people tow with AWD or 4WD.

 

[otherclive]

The webpage I looked at had Qashqai (2wd) max towing at 1500kg, but it can vary between markets. If it is 1800kg then use it initially and see how you go. Don't be surprised if you need to upgrade.
If your model is fwd you will soon discovery why most people tow with AWD or 4WD.

For years I happily caravanned with front wheel or rear wheel drive cars without any issues. In fact the only times I had difficulty exiting a site were with three different cars with 4 wheel drive, or AWD. It’s a British thing as when you are in Europe the Germans, Dutch, French etc predominantly tow with two wheel drive cars, not SUVs.
I also tended to go for estate cars which I found an excellent combination for towing usage and our solo usage. They gave significant flexibility of function and being lower gave a nice ride too.
The one thing my SUVs (Discovery, Sorento mk1 and Foresters) gave me was the ability to go on tracks that an estate or saloon would not cope with. But don’t disregard the ability of estate cars as a good towing vehicle.

 

[Buckman]

Our first car that we used for towing was FWD S80. Towed okay but was useless on wet grass due to wheel spin. Traded it in for an older 4x4.

 

[Dustydog]

For years I happily caravanned with front wheel or rear wheel drive cars without any issues. In fact the only times I had difficulty exiting a site were with three different cars with 4 wheel drive, or AWD. It’s a British thing as when you are in Europe the Germans, Dutch, French etc predominantly tow with two wheel drive cars, not SUVs.
I also tended to go for estate cars which I found an excellent combination for towing usage and our solo usage. They gave significant flexibility of function and being lower gave a nice ride too.
The one thing my SUVs (Discovery, Sorento mk1 and Foresters) gave me was the ability to go on tracks that an estate or saloon would not cope with. But don’t disregard the ability of estate cars as a good Vauxhall’s and Renault’s were FWD. powerful and fast and yes lots of wheel spin with a boot of throttle on wet grass.

My Vauxhalls and Renault’s were FWD. Powerful and fast. Wheel spin easy to achieve. The solution was to start off in 2nd, no throttle, just gentle lifting off the clutch. Never got stuck.
However as caravans have grown in weight and size I prefer AWD. But rest assured FWD will do the job. It’s all in the right foot!