Following some recent problems with a buyer being unable to collect the Hobby 650 they purchased from me, what is a suitable towcar for this? - apparently the vehicle would need to weigh in excess of 3500kg due to the width of the Hobby being over 2.3 meters (it measures 2.55 meters). This whole issue resulted in the deal falling through. With the exception of a lorry, it seems that there are not many vehicles of this weight.
Towcar for Hobby 650??
- Thread starter Phil_374355571
- Start date
Phil,
As has been said before it may be to the letter of the law that 2.3mtrs is to wide for british roads unless pulled by a huge vehicle, BUT, I have seen the traveling people pulling them with transit vans/minibuses, and to repeat others, how many european tourists come over with their vans being pulled by big 4x4s, I think the police have better things to do than stopping and measuring caravans, If I were you I would conform with the 85% rule and carry on.
Good Luck Tony A.
As has been said before it may be to the letter of the law that 2.3mtrs is to wide for british roads unless pulled by a huge vehicle, BUT, I have seen the traveling people pulling them with transit vans/minibuses, and to repeat others, how many european tourists come over with their vans being pulled by big 4x4s, I think the police have better things to do than stopping and measuring caravans, If I were you I would conform with the 85% rule and carry on.
Good Luck Tony A.
There are loads of threads on this forum regarding vans like yours which some unscrupulous dealers have sold without telling the purchaser the legalities of towing the van.
with the van being over 2.3 meters wide it needs by law to be towed with a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight in excess of 3500 kgs, ie 3501 kgs or more ! there are no vehicles on plg taxation that come in at this weight as anything over this weight is regarded as a heavy goods vehicle and needs to be taxed and plated as such, the only vehicle i could find that was transit sized was a special order 17 seat minibus but this needed to be driven by a driver with a pcv licence so again its not really suitable.
All transit , sprinter , vw and renault type commercial vehicles are rated at a max of 3500 kgs so are illegal.
like i said this has been discussed in great length on the forum quite recently so i would advice you do a search and see the numerous responses.
with the van being over 2.3 meters wide it needs by law to be towed with a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight in excess of 3500 kgs, ie 3501 kgs or more ! there are no vehicles on plg taxation that come in at this weight as anything over this weight is regarded as a heavy goods vehicle and needs to be taxed and plated as such, the only vehicle i could find that was transit sized was a special order 17 seat minibus but this needed to be driven by a driver with a pcv licence so again its not really suitable.
All transit , sprinter , vw and renault type commercial vehicles are rated at a max of 3500 kgs so are illegal.
like i said this has been discussed in great length on the forum quite recently so i would advice you do a search and see the numerous responses.
The 85% rule is much more achievable too I see, my calculations show that the vehicle would need to weigh 2230kg (ish) ???
I saw 3 illegal outfits on my way home from Longleat on Sunday.I don't think the police bother , the same as towing a car behind a motorhome thread elsewhere.
As for dealers , I was looking at a Tec van once and said it was a shame it was too wide but the dealer told me it was only illegal ...if I got caught !!!
Brian
As for dealers , I was looking at a Tec van once and said it was a shame it was too wide but the dealer told me it was only illegal ...if I got caught !!!
Brian
phill, please dont be getting confused, the problem is the width not the weight, regardless of how low you load the van its illegal to tow it with anything less than what has been stated.
Tony's advice is so wrong its bordering on the outrageous, the police do little with travellors basically becouse they know they will be long gone by the time the summons is served so its a pointless waste of resources, much the same with foreign vans, they come they go end of, but to be honest ive seen very few illegal foreign vans in this country so i think tony may just be trying to justify nievity.
just try taking the van in to devon or cornwall and see how much interest the police will give you, honestly they are very keen in that area, we have had our outfit checked twice down there and then theres lancashire police they love to pull vans over, just see how many are being checked on the m6 services next time your in the area.
Top and bottom of the situation is you can not tow the van legally in this country with a vehicle weighing less than 3501 kgs to do so you will invalidate your insurance too which im sure you will agree is not acceptable at all.
Tony's advice is so wrong its bordering on the outrageous, the police do little with travellors basically becouse they know they will be long gone by the time the summons is served so its a pointless waste of resources, much the same with foreign vans, they come they go end of, but to be honest ive seen very few illegal foreign vans in this country so i think tony may just be trying to justify nievity.
just try taking the van in to devon or cornwall and see how much interest the police will give you, honestly they are very keen in that area, we have had our outfit checked twice down there and then theres lancashire police they love to pull vans over, just see how many are being checked on the m6 services next time your in the area.
Top and bottom of the situation is you can not tow the van legally in this country with a vehicle weighing less than 3501 kgs to do so you will invalidate your insurance too which im sure you will agree is not acceptable at all.
Ice maker,
Am I correct in thinking that the large American RVs are registered as PLG.
If that is the case the 17 seat mini bus you sugested can be re registered as PLG. as long as it is only used for personal use & not for gain.
Am I correct in thinking that the large American RVs are registered as PLG.
If that is the case the 17 seat mini bus you sugested can be re registered as PLG. as long as it is only used for personal use & not for gain.
Phil - the Ford F-150 and the Dodge Ram, both imported from the USA are commonly chosen by those who wish to legally tow a caravan wider than 7'6" (2.3m).
All I really need at this stage is something fairly concrete to tell the potential buyer, I can understand the predicament of the dealers when they have to rercommend a towcar for these, but I really cant be dealing with a buyer pulling out again because of this issue. Do I quote the 85% "rule" or the +2.3 metre rule??....or both maybe.
I don't think you have any option but to quote the rule regarding width. As stated previously, weight is not the issue but if there is an accident and the insurance company declines cover retrospectively, the owner will require very deep pockets. The vehicles mentioned that are rated at 3500kg are that weight for a reason i.e. licence requirements to drive them.
not sure whether they are plg or not to be honest graham, the transit 17 seater may be plg but the driver would need a pcv licence regardless of use due to the amount of seats. i think 13 plus driver is the maximum allowed on a normal car licence.
i know we had this problem at work with the staff van, all our van drivers use the van to carry us between station and depot and only have a car licence due to it being a 12 seater but when it broke down the leasing company sent a 15 seater which we used for 2 days before the leasing company realised we should not have it as no one had a pcv licence.
At the end of the day you , i and everyone on here knows that any 4x4 or large mpv is more than capable of towing these vans with ease and in safety but its the law so it screws us up if we want a wider van, we just have to live with it unfortunately but i would never take the risk of invalidating my insurance just for an extra foot or so in width, its an instant ban these days and thats the end of your caravanning.
i know we had this problem at work with the staff van, all our van drivers use the van to carry us between station and depot and only have a car licence due to it being a 12 seater but when it broke down the leasing company sent a 15 seater which we used for 2 days before the leasing company realised we should not have it as no one had a pcv licence.
At the end of the day you , i and everyone on here knows that any 4x4 or large mpv is more than capable of towing these vans with ease and in safety but its the law so it screws us up if we want a wider van, we just have to live with it unfortunately but i would never take the risk of invalidating my insurance just for an extra foot or so in width, its an instant ban these days and thats the end of your caravanning.
Icemaker,
The situation you sugested about your company is correct.
But what I am saying is a different situation in that if you had a vehicle capable of carrying 15 or more seats, but did not carry any passengers only family (wife & 3 kids), it would not come under the law of carrying passengers.
You could also remove several of the seats eg 52 seater coach used for carrying hot rods/stock cars. They are driven on car licenses.
The situation you sugested about your company is correct.
But what I am saying is a different situation in that if you had a vehicle capable of carrying 15 or more seats, but did not carry any passengers only family (wife & 3 kids), it would not come under the law of carrying passengers.
You could also remove several of the seats eg 52 seater coach used for carrying hot rods/stock cars. They are driven on car licenses.
Phil - to avoid a sale falling through again, you need to advise a prospective buyer of the legal requirement for the towing vehicle to be over 3500kg gross weight, noting that 3500kg exactly doesn't qualify. If they're already aware of this requirement there won't be a problem - whether they comply with the law or not isn't then your concern.
The biggest 4x4 is a Toyota LandCruiser V8 but that's only 3300kg.
US-style pickups, jumbo vans or lorrys are the only legal towcars for 2.55m wide caravans.
The biggest 4x4 is a Toyota LandCruiser V8 but that's only 3300kg.
US-style pickups, jumbo vans or lorrys are the only legal towcars for 2.55m wide caravans.
I think this covers it:
Due to the weight of this caravan, it is necessary to tow using a vehicle weighing approx. 2230kg or more. This has been calculated using the "85% rule" which is included in the "towing code" - if, however, you wish to adhere strictly to the letter of the law you will require a vehicle weighing 3500kg or more as this is the requirement for a caravan over 2.3 meters in width (2.55 meters in this case)
of course thats right graham but you would have to remove the seats so that the vehicle was incapable of being used as a 17 seater, But then you would have reduced the weight of the vehicle so it would no longer comply with the 3500 kgs or over rule so it defeats the object.
Its a bit like we as caravanners do when we want a bit more payload in that we get the vans plate upgraded but in the case of the 17 seat transit it would be in reverse ie your reducing the payload.
One other thing the 17 seat transit is a special order vehicle and last time i checked it was in the region of 24 grand, who in thiere right mind would spend that sort of money on a van with seats and then pass the pcv licence test just to tow a van 1 foot wider than most others ?.
which ever way we look at it it still comes down to a 3501 kg or more vehicle and that puts you in hgv land.
Its a bit like we as caravanners do when we want a bit more payload in that we get the vans plate upgraded but in the case of the 17 seat transit it would be in reverse ie your reducing the payload.
One other thing the 17 seat transit is a special order vehicle and last time i checked it was in the region of 24 grand, who in thiere right mind would spend that sort of money on a van with seats and then pass the pcv licence test just to tow a van 1 foot wider than most others ?.
which ever way we look at it it still comes down to a 3501 kg or more vehicle and that puts you in hgv land.
When I was looking at buying a Defender recently, I was warned to check the plating, as quite a lot have a higher capacity axle/suspension setup; sometimes this is plated over 3500, sometimes the plate is standard (presumably the higher capability was for use off public roads, eg forestry).
So some defenders COULD be capable and legal to tow the Hobby, if plated appropriately.
The problem seems to be that a vehicle over 3500 requires a C class HGV (now known as LGV) licence to drive it, and if the trailer is above 750, then it requires the C+E licence - which is the one for Artics!
I'm sure there are people with Artic licences that go caravanning, but the current discussion is about ordinary drivers.
Of course a lot of this makes no sense at all - my wife can tow our small van with the Range Rover on her B licence, but if we got a bigger van, she would only be legal with a smaller car - but we are talking about what's legal, not what's sensible!
So some defenders COULD be capable and legal to tow the Hobby, if plated appropriately.
The problem seems to be that a vehicle over 3500 requires a C class HGV (now known as LGV) licence to drive it, and if the trailer is above 750, then it requires the C+E licence - which is the one for Artics!
I'm sure there are people with Artic licences that go caravanning, but the current discussion is about ordinary drivers.
Of course a lot of this makes no sense at all - my wife can tow our small van with the Range Rover on her B licence, but if we got a bigger van, she would only be legal with a smaller car - but we are talking about what's legal, not what's sensible!
Oldfogey - if your wife only has a B licence she's limited to an outfit where the max vehicle weight + max braked trailer weight is under 3500kg and the max braked trailer weight is less than the kerb weight of the towing vehicle.
Given the max vehicle weight of a Range Rover that'll leave very few kg for a braked trailer.
On a B licence a driver can also drive a vehicle with max weight up to 3500kg with an unbraked trailer up to 750kg.
Given the max vehicle weight of a Range Rover that'll leave very few kg for a braked trailer.
On a B licence a driver can also drive a vehicle with max weight up to 3500kg with an unbraked trailer up to 750kg.
Oldfogey,
I think you have got the wrong end of the stick.
To tow a trailer wider than 2.3 mtr (7'6") the UNLAIDEN WEIGHT must be over 3500kgs not the gross weight.
Landrover Defenders are not over this weight unlaiden
I think you have got the wrong end of the stick.
To tow a trailer wider than 2.3 mtr (7'6") the UNLAIDEN WEIGHT must be over 3500kgs not the gross weight.
Landrover Defenders are not over this weight unlaiden
Straight from the National Trailer and Towing Association Web Site
Maximum Trailer Dimensions
Towing vehicle up to 3500kg GVW
Length (excluding the coupling and drawbar) 7.0 m
Width Maximum 2.3 m
Towing vehicle over 3500kg GVW
Length (excluding the coupling and drawbar) 12 m (min 4 wheels)
Width Maximum 2.55 m
Length of towing vehicle and trailer combined 18 m
Maximum overhang of load from rear of trailer 3.05 m
Maximum Trailer Dimensions
Towing vehicle up to 3500kg GVW
Length (excluding the coupling and drawbar) 7.0 m
Width Maximum 2.3 m
Towing vehicle over 3500kg GVW
Length (excluding the coupling and drawbar) 12 m (min 4 wheels)
Width Maximum 2.55 m
Length of towing vehicle and trailer combined 18 m
Maximum overhang of load from rear of trailer 3.05 m
Graham South Brum
The GROSS weight has to be 3501kg or more to tow a trailer wider than 2.3m
The unladen weight is irrelevant, in this respect.
The GROSS weight has to be 3501kg or more to tow a trailer wider than 2.3m
The unladen weight is irrelevant, in this respect.
Thanks for confirming I was right about GVW over 3500, RogerL.
Re my wife towing with a B licence, Range Rover GVW is 2504Kg, leaving 996Kg for the caravan - ours has a Laden weight of 685Kg, so 301Kg in hand.
My point is that if we changed the van, it would likely come over the 996, and she would not be able to tow it - unless we got a smaller car! What kind of sense does that make?
Re my wife towing with a B licence, Range Rover GVW is 2504Kg, leaving 996Kg for the caravan - ours has a Laden weight of 685Kg, so 301Kg in hand.
My point is that if we changed the van, it would likely come over the 996, and she would not be able to tow it - unless we got a smaller car! What kind of sense does that make?
- Mar 14, 2005
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It would be difficult to define driving licence categories otherwise. Having a limit which depends on gross train weight appears to be a fairly realistic attempt by those that put the law together to have some sort of correlation between overall weight and necessary driving skill. I really don't see how it could have been done in another way to avoid the apparent anomaly that you have described. Having only a 100% weight ratio limit, for example, would, in the extreme for a heavy vehicle with a very low payload, permit a gross train weight of 3500+3500 = 7000kg which would be an over 60% increase over what is allowed today and therefore not in line with what the law intended. Besides, to allow the powers-that-be to check the legality of an outfit, one would need to have a plated kerbweight as documented proof, which is something that is not the case today.
"Re my wife towing with a B licence, Range Rover GVW is 2504Kg, leaving 996Kg for the caravan - ours has a Laden weight of 685Kg, so 301Kg in hand."
Oldfogey - I didn't realise there were caravans with MTPLM as low as 685kg although the smaller! Eriba Touring caravans do have a 900kg MTPLM.
As Lutz says, the line has to be drawn somewhere. The fact that a 17-year old could pass their test and then tow a 1520kg caravan on a motorway at 60mph with a 1520kg kerb, 1980kg gross, towcar on a B licence without any training is frightening.
If you need an example my Subaru Outback is 1520kg kerb, 1970kg gross - but I tow a 1250kg caravan on a B+E.
Oldfogey - I didn't realise there were caravans with MTPLM as low as 685kg although the smaller! Eriba Touring caravans do have a 900kg MTPLM.
As Lutz says, the line has to be drawn somewhere. The fact that a 17-year old could pass their test and then tow a 1520kg caravan on a motorway at 60mph with a 1520kg kerb, 1980kg gross, towcar on a B licence without any training is frightening.
If you need an example my Subaru Outback is 1520kg kerb, 1970kg gross - but I tow a 1250kg caravan on a B+E.
The law is there to help apparently in the name of safety but i cant help thinking its still a half hearted attempt and one that once again penalises the "more gentile" society that us caravanners portray.
A 17 year old cant tow any thing over what has been stated (without a competency test) but if they have the money they can go straight out and buy a 180 mph super car, personally i know which ones worse and its not the one thats restricted.
We still have a lot to learn in this country, the law is an ass.
A 17 year old cant tow any thing over what has been stated (without a competency test) but if they have the money they can go straight out and buy a 180 mph super car, personally i know which ones worse and its not the one thats restricted.
We still have a lot to learn in this country, the law is an ass.
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