Towing a Car behind a Motorhome

Oct 9, 2010
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Yes good point sir.
But what it is actually saying is that towing a car with an A frame is illegal when the trailered weight is over 750KG and braking system is not working.
I also believe that it you have a large enough US style RV motorhome and tow a trailer you will also find that you need a licence for an articulated lorry. The 'Smart ' for Two car is around 730kg, so might just creep under the limit for unbraked.
Fiat motorhomers we parked next to in NI had a Smart on a trailer as they had problems with A frame trailing that lead to reduced braking and accelerated brake pad wear.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Ah, but the law refers to MAM (Maximum Allowable Weight) of the trailer and the 730kg that you mention is the minimum kerbweight of a Smart, not its MAM.
 
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Not good with gobbledegook on MAM or anything else in these directives. But does it not say that if brakes are fitted they have to work. I've seen Smarts on fixed frames ( no over run ) and the users seem to think that they are legal under un-braked regs and less than 750kg.
Recently we've seen a 500Abarth and a Suzuki Swift trailed behind motorhomes with unbraked frames, kerb weight around 1100KG. Most users just hang a trailer lighting board off the back and some frames are quite long and I think they are dangerous with 4+ metres behind a motorhome with no side markers.
Whatever the laws might cover I can't imagine how anyone thinks that the tow vehicles brakes are OK with that kind of extra weight behind un-braked.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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OmOnWeelz said:
But does it not say that if brakes are fitted they have to work.
The fact sheet mentioned above does reference minimum braking performance requirements. It also states that it is unclear how the requirements can be fulfilled with a simple overrun brake actuator on the A-frame, especially with respect to a legal requirement to have automatic reverse disengagement of the brakes. So, while A-frames are not illegal as such, fulfilment of the conditions specified would be very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve.
 
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We've thought about changing to a motorhome, but we would want a car so we could get in to town centres, shopping cenrtres, villages, mountains or down beach tracks.
Lutz, your DfT fact sheets says that if fitted with brakes they must work and that a towed car on an A frame becomes a trailer. However MAM is worked out or the law relating to it is applied, in my humble 'Joe :public' mind most small cars that are towed with A frame style hitches have no form of braking and as they are fitted with brakes according to the DfT they should be working when forming part of a trailer that the car becomes.
Or Have I got it wrong? What I've seen towed in a fair number of cases seems to be illegal on those counts and to my mind it makes the braking dangerous as it will be overloaded and I'm not aware of any system that will activate and use the cars brakes.
You can trailer a small car, but then you have to have the added expense of that purchase and you need spave to park it and unload it as we saw with the Smart in Northern Ireland.
Seems easier to stick with our caravan and know we are legal. Even if we were could get A frame style MH outfit legal in the UK it would be just our luck to find we were braking some EU neighbours laws
smiley-cry.gif
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I suspect that most A-frames on the market are strictly illegal even if fitted with an overrun brake (and I have seen those, too). On the Continent even the provisions for attaching the A-frame on the Smart, or whatever, would be illegal they are a technical modification to the towcar which could affect its pedestrian impact and crash performance if involved in a head-crash in the solo condition. How this is viewed in the UK, I don't know, as the fact sheet seems to have ignored that issue.
 
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Thank's, we seem to be in the same corner. I was worried that should we be involvved in an accident the authorities could blame it on lack of Braking capacity re the trailed part of the outfit (well, something like that). In my life that would mean taking the wrap for the accident and the insurers bailing out and leaving us with one hell of a bill.
 
Oct 22, 2009
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Hello all, I really am puzzled by the reason that people with motor homes tow another vehicle behind them. I can fully understand that some people are not comfortable with the idea of towing so a motorhome is the answer.We considered it ourselves but were put off by the restriction of free movement.The only way round this was "tow a eurobox" to get about with.Not a viable option for us so ergo,caravan.Please tell me what did we forget in the equation? I am not anti motorhomes and am genuinly interested in the reasons that lead people to choose a motorhome and small car instead of a caravan and car.Some time in the future we may revisit the motor home option so need to have all the advice available.
Thursdays Child
 
Oct 30, 2009
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Lutz said:
It also states that it is unclear how the requirements can be fulfilled with a simple overrun brake actuator on the A-frame, especially with respect to a legal requirement to have automatic reverse disengagement of the brakes. So, while A-frames are not illegal as such, fulfilment of the conditions specified would be very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve.

hi.
if the above statement is true "and I dont doubt it" then people with older vans (pre alko chasis) must be illegal as they did not have automatic disengagement of the brakes this had to be done manually via a lever or a semicercular clip that was engaged prior to reversing, I believe some boat trailers still use this arangement too.
the other statement I dont get is the alleged problems to the brakes of the towing vehicle by towing a unbraked trailer of 750kg especialy on a motorhome because all motor homes are either van based convertions or custom built onto pickup chasis both of which use comercial running gear and well able to cope with such loads.
our m/home was based on the VW LT35 which in van form could carry 3ton and tow a 2500kg trailer "quote from the handbook" so a unbraked trailer of 750kg would have been no problem to it at all.
to take lutz's arguement to conclusion all such trailers (and they are trailers if attached to a tow vehicle) would be illegal but A frames can be fitted with overun brakes via the h/brake the car the unit would then be a braked trailer so the 750kg limit would not apply. the fact that braking via the rear wheels may give 25% efficiency only is not a issue as there is no test on trailer brakes.and not all trailers brake on all the wheels.
I had this conversation allready with a guy that was towing a converted polo behind a huge m/home while away last year he showed me the legislation leaflet and went through every part of it the weight, the brakes, the lights,ect and yes I had to agree he was completely road legal he even had a third party insurance certificate for the polo when not been driven ie "on tow" this guy knew his stuff. allright well he convinced me and i'm one of the worlds sceptics.

colin
 
Oct 30, 2009
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by the way while on the subject can anyone remember some TV programs from a while back:- billy connelly towing his bike a 3 wheeled harley "behind the disco " ok so a harley isn't 750kg but the pincipal is the same or fred dibnah towing a landrover with perminantly attached A frame at the front behind the steam engine. definitly more than 750kg can't remember either getting nicked though.
colin
 
Mar 14, 2005
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colin-yorkshire said:
if the above statement is true "and I dont doubt it" then people with older vans (pre alko chasis) must be illegal as they did not have automatic disengagement of the brakes this had to be done manually via a lever or a semicercular clip that was engaged prior to reversing, I believe some boat trailers still use this arangement too.
The fact sheet states that automatic reverse disengagement did not become a legal requirement until October 1988 so older caravans are not illegal and boat trailers are not exempt.
colin yorkshire said:
the other statement I dont get is the alleged problems to the brakes of the towing vehicle by towing a unbraked trailer of 750kg especialy on a motorhome because all motor homes are either van based convertions or custom built onto pickup chasis both of which use comercial running gear and well able to cope with such loads.
The legal requirement states brakes are required on any trailer weighing more than 750kg, no matter what it is towed by, even if it's a 12 ton truck.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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Lutz said:
colin-yorkshire said:
if the above statement is true "and I dont doubt it" then people with older vans (pre alko chasis) must be illegal as they did not have automatic disengagement of the brakes this had to be done manually via a lever or a semicercular clip that was engaged prior to reversing, I believe some boat trailers still use this arangement too.
The fact sheet states that automatic reverse disengagement did not become a legal requirement until October 1988 so older caravans are not illegal and boat trailers are not exempt.
colin yorkshire said:
the other statement I dont get is the alleged problems to the brakes of the towing vehicle by towing a unbraked trailer of 750kg especialy on a motorhome because all motor homes are either van based convertions or custom built onto pickup chasis both of which use comercial running gear and well able to cope with such loads.
The legal requirement states brakes are required on any trailer weighing more than 750kg, no matter what it is towed by, even if it's a 12 ton truck.

Oh sorry Lutz I was waiting for the rest of your post to appear as it seems you only picked out the first two points and then stopped I assumed your keyboard had run out of ink bud.

lets take the first point first so to speak yes I have read the fact sheet and as normal it is unclear as to exactly what is a legal requirement in detail and as usual with british law leaves a middle bit that is open to interpretation with the phrase " only the courts can decide" to me this means there is a grey area.
exactly when the alko type chasis became standard fittment to all caravans used on the roads I don't know but I am sure it was later than 1988 and I do know as a fact that some breakback boat trailers dont't have auto reverse brakes moreover it does not follow that all t/axel trailers brake on all 4 wheels some it is only 2.

2nd nowhere in my post do I refer to unbraked trailers over 750kg
apart from a reference to the land rover towed by old fred behind the steam engine and come to think of it he used to tow a coal trailer from time to time without brakes, it is possible of course that steam engines are exempt from the legistlation.

I am sure you will excuse me for playing the devils advocate here but there are gaping holes in the interpretation of the said legistlations if you read them carefully they are there to see. I know this topic comes up now and again but it is complex and not truly understood even by the so-called experts.let alone joe public if the letter of the law was so plain most of us who tow trailers would be illegal in some way every time we towed.

the first paragraph reads any vehicle towed by another ie motorhome is effectively a trailer and subject to trailer regulations and then goes on to explain them. However if the said towed vehicle is now a trailer and not a motor vehicle in itself any reference to its mam weight is meaningless as these include driver and passengers neither of which could be carried in a trailer.
it also states in reference to the above that the brakes "if the weight is over 750kg" the braking efficiency must be over 50% well maybe in germany trailers have tests but here in the uk that is not the case so there is no provision for calculating the brake efficiency of a trailer many would have seen many years of service without being tested ever so how does one know what the figure is.
as I wrote in my first post I have had this conversation before and seeing first hand the modifications required "as undersood" it is possible to tow a car with a Aframe legally many do rightly or wrongly in the end it is up to the courts to decide not us.

colin
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Just because trailers do not have to be MOT'd that doesn't mean that their brakes do not have to meet the same requirements as a towing vehicle. With the introduction of Full Vehicle Type Approval for caravans at the latest, manufacturers will have to demonstrate and document that their caravans meet the provisions of the regulations.
Furthermore, I'd like to know where the law specifically exempts boat trailers. Why should they? Just because there may be some about without brakes, that doesn't make them legal and I hardly think that they have any acquired rights.
The Directgov website specifically includes trailers in the definition of MAM that they give. It "is the maximum weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely while used on the road", although I don't understand why they say vehicle or trailer - as if a trailer is not a vehicle. OK, it's not a motor vehicle, but it's still a vehicle.
Even if, as you say, there may be some grey areas left for the courts to decide, they could also decide against me and I'm surprised that anyone would want to take the risk.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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hi Lutz
thanks for the reply,
I think with your last reply you acctually hint at the point I was trying to make regarding grey areas when it is unclear exactly what the regulations require at the time they are made and to wether the said regulations are specfic or all emcumbasing not to mention retrospective it does seem at times that regulations are made for a specific purpose ie aimed at caravans without regard to how it effects other uses or purposes like boats and other non commercial applications.
the fact of the matter is here in the uk irrespective of application of any new "local or eu" driven regulations trailers do not allways conform to the same rules either because of age or because of purpose of application why this is the case I do not know however it IS true. for instance not all braked trailers have auto reverse disengagement and not all t/a axel trailers brake on all the wheels there is no provision here in the uk for testing the efficiency of trailer brakes once in service irrespective of any certificate issued by the manufacturer ether in the future or from the past.
to say that a small car towed behind a motor vehicle must comply with all requrements applicable to new caravans seems rather odd when other trailers are clearly not following the same set of rules. you cannot take one instance of "the rules" and apply it to all other critera cart blanche.
one I can think of that fits this area is the towing of trailers by m/cycles in particular trikes as far as I am aware there is no type approval on tow bars no tow limits imposed similar to the ones applicable to cars towing caravans to use the same critera for both is nonsense however a bike is a motor vehicle and its attachment is a trailer so in theory the same rules apply to both.

it was not my intention to appear to be having a go at you or anyone else that contributes to this forum but to widen the discussion a bit you may well be correct in your interpretation of the existing regulations all I am saying is not all trailers comply with them.

colin
 
Oct 30, 2009
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hi all.
while we wait for any further comments/disscusions I thought it may be good time to try and answer Thursdays child's question,
Thursdays Child said:
Hello all, I really am puzzled by the reason that people with motor homes tow another vehicle behind them. I can fully understand that some people are not comfortable with the idea of towing so a motorhome is the answer.We considered it ourselves but were put off by the restriction of free movement.The only way round this was "tow a eurobox" to get about with.Not a viable option for us so ergo,caravan.Please tell me what did we forget in the equation? I am not anti motorhomes and am genuinly interested in the reasons that lead people to choose a motorhome and small car instead of a caravan and car.Some time in the future we may revisit the motor home option so need to have all the advice available.

Thursdays Child

right well acctually you did not forget much in the equation exept the size factor the m/home we had was based on the long wheel base VW LT35 dimensions of were 20ft long 7ft wide and 9ft 6in high not a small vehicle but "no monster either"it had a sun canopy that had zips down the ends so side and front panels could be added to form a servicable awning.the only thing extra we needed was the EHU plug in case the battery power dropped everything else was on board.
the benifits for having a m/home rather than a van and car were because.it was more mobile there were no setting up/packing up times 2mins after arriving all done plus we could go and do the grand tours staying one night somewhere before moving on sites were only used 50% of the time plus if we did book for a extended stay on one site we could tour round stay overnight at the destination and return to the site next day. at most of the commercial sites fees were at the minimum rates and if we stayed somewhere and did not like it, it took minimum effort to move on. also it was quicker to get from place to place not being restricted to towing laws. the key word here is freedom
however there was a down side "there allways is" often on site where a specific pitch was not booked someone .would steal your pitch while you were away from the site "even with a reserved sign present" it was hard sometimes to find level pitches some seem level untill the m/home was parked on it, and then you find the plates slide off the table and most parking bays are too small often having to park over 2 bays and obtaining 2 tickets at extra cost that is of course if you could find a car park without a barrier near enough to where you wanted to be, most of the time you ended up a mile away on an overflow park with all the other motor homes.all bearing in mind this is not the largest of vehicles.imagine one twice as big.
this is where the small car comes in handy tow it behind the m/home and commute no one can steal your pitch as you can leave the car there even if you go out in the van you save fuel as the small car uses less and should the unthinkable happen and the motorhome has a problem you have alternative transport, while a small car may effect the mobility a tad it does increase the freedom and probably why some with large motorhomes tow one.
I hope this goes some way to answering your question,
colin
 
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colin-yorkshire said:
not all braked trailers have auto reverse disengagement and not all t/a axel trailers brake on all the wheels there is no provision here in the uk for testing the efficiency of trailer brakes once in service irrespective of any certificate issued by the manufacturer ether in the future or from the past.
to say that a small car towed behind a motor vehicle must comply with all requrements applicable to new caravans seems rather odd when other trailers are clearly not following the same set of rules. you cannot take one instance of "the rules" and apply it to all other critera cart blanche.
As I pointed out before, trailers over 750kg built before the 1st October 1988 did not have to have auto reverse disengagement, but those built since then do.
As far as one can deduce from the fact sheet a trailer is a trailer, whether it's a small car towed behind a motor home or a caravan or any other type of trailer. Nowhere is there any mention of the rules not applying to all types. It wouldn't be logical either, as from a safety standpoint there is not reason why one should not set the same requirements.
As far as braking performance is concerned, without provisions of some form of measurement, even in the UK, it would not be possible to get Total Vehicle Type Approval as will be required also for caravans. If braking performance can be measured on the Continent, there is no reason why it should be impossible, given the right equipment, to do the same in the UK. I hardly think that UK manufacturers are going to have their testing done on the Continent.
If the required braking performance can be achieved with brakes on just 2 of the 4 wheels of a twin, so be it.
The fact that there may be trailers on UK roads which don't fulfil the requirements doesn't make them legal. It's just that nobody has bothered to check.
 

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