Towing Capacity

[Icaru5]

Possibly guaranteed safe towing is not quite right but a good ratio should make the outfit safe.
As for bow waves I find that they only ones that disturb our outfit to any extent are the white van men passing at speeds well over 70.

a good ratio low ratio is likely to be safer than a big ratio, but that is not the same as saying it is "safe" which implies there is no danger or risk.

A solo car has its stability margins seriously eroded when it becomes a tow car, so in no way can towing be described as "safe", it requires greater attention from the driver and any lapse of that attention has a greater chance of becoming a serious incident. I place this use of the word safe in the same group a "rule " for weight ratio's as neither can be a definite outcome of the practice.

Seriously eroded[/

Prof,
Not quite your usual stance
A seriously eroded performance may be crying out for some intervention like suspension aids etc?
Surely most vehicles designs take into account towing within the prescribed and recognised limits
I’d hate us to deter the newbies :woohoo:

I stand by my statement, but perhaps it needs a little clarification. Something that looses half or more of its potential is seriously eroded, so for example the rate of acceleration of a car and caravan is roughly half that of the solo car. This does not mean its incapable, just less able. that is the easy one, but handling with a caravan in tow puts a lot more stress through the car its suspension and tyres, again they should have been specified adequately by the manufacturer but definitely with a caravan in tow it will eat up any of the available margin.

So no its not a change of stance, and i still maintain no car requires spring assisters as per my previous posts.

I really do feel the need to interject here guys, and to say that a car’s stability margins become seriously eroded when it becomes a tow car is a gross understatement.

First of all, I think one needs to define stability, or at least the audience’s understanding of the term “stability” when applied to a vehicle ...

It is commonplace for motorsport enthusiasts and professional racing drivers to regularly and intentionallly drive a solo car way beyond what one would generally consider to be the limits of stability. However, the key difference here is that they are driving a vehicle with a rigid body, designed and engineered to be predictable, and irrespective of their skill level, their ability to keep the car under “control” is determined by their reaction time, in response to the change in stance of the vehicle, caused by a sudden change in force (of either magnitude, direction or both), as a result of whatever situation they deliberately choose to invoke, be it understeer or oversteer, and at whatever speed. The magnitude and direction of the forces at play here are even pre-determined by the drivers own deliberate actions, and they can feel exactly what the car is doing, and as the forces at play are not too great in magnitude, or (more importantly) in frequency of change in direction, they are able to react quick enough to provide a counter-reaction to bring the car back in line. There really is no unpredictability here, except from perhaps a little margin for error due changeable road surface conditions.

In such a situation, whilst of course the relationship isn’t directly proportional, in general, the reaction time required to “control” the situation is inversely related to the force he/she is attempting to counteract, and passenger cars are fundamentally engineered and designed this way.

However, when that vehicle becomes a tow car, that’s a complete game changer, and for one key reason. When a car and caravan combination becomes completely unstable, the 3-dimensional forces acting on the tow ball are of such magnitude and more critically of such rapid change in direction and unpredictability, that no driver, however skilled they think they may be, can react quick enough to confidently bring the outfit under control. And to look at the bigger, and much more complex picture here, it’s not only the reaction of the driver that must be considered, but even parameters such as the reaction of the tyres of both the car and caravan, the “drive-by-wire” throttle and brake response, and the suspension of both the car and caravan and the “tank slapper” effect of the contents of the cars fuel tank as the rear of the car is violently shifted from one side to the other.

Reverting back to my original point, in terms of quantifiability, the stability of a modern, well maintained solo car and that of a car towing a caravan are not even on the same spectrum, however safe one considers their outfit to be.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I would quite like to pursue Icaruses comment as there are some good points in it but also some points that don't quite ring true. But this is a caravanning forum. The key point is that virtually doubling the weight a car has to haul around does degrade several aspects of its performance, and it's safety. Keeping an outfit within its specifications should allow it to negotiate our roads with an adequate margin of control.

 

[Beehpee]

I’ve been a member of this forum for several years now and enjoy it immensely and I’ve learnt lots and contributed a couple of snippets of wisdom, I would say though how it never ceases to amaze me how quickly a simple question such as the one originally posted here asking for some idea of the compatibility of his Kuga and caravan are can turn into a topic that needs to be studied in depth to be understood at all, I appreciate that not every question can have a simple answer but I’m sure someone on here most probably has at some point driven a Kuga and has a simple answer as to its suitability rather than this in depth over technical answer, often this type of topic seems to end up being a battle between who knows the most about the physics of the subject rather than answering the question, I’d have thought that if the OP was able to understand half of the answers given he/she wouldn’t have needed to ask the question in the first place, like many he’s probably given up reading long ago and posted his question somewhere he’ll hopefully get a more simple answer.

BP

 

[Dustydog]

I would quite like to pursue Icaruses comment as there are some good points in it but also some points that don't quite ring true. But this is a caravanning forum. The key point is that virtually doubling the weight a car has to haul around does degrade several aspects of its performance, and it's safety. Keeping an outfit within its specifications should allow it to negotiate our roads with an adequate margin of control.

[/
Morning Prof,
That sentence sounds perfect compared to seriously eroded
My sole concern is we do not hit the panic button and scare off a newbie or inadvertently encourage the fitting of spring stiffeners etc B)

 

[Craigyoung]

A beginner could be great straight away at towing , loading car and van correctly but like someone says earlier , all it takes is one knacker to cut in front off you and thats it !! I experience it every day , theres always someone trying to get in front by that split second what causes a tail back of catastrophe ! I sit here typing this as I am about to go out on the road at work on the bus and just wait for it to happen today !! B)

 

[Icaru5]

I’ve been a member of this forum for several years now and enjoy it immensely and I’ve learnt lots and contributed a couple of snippets of wisdom, I would say though how it never ceases to amaze me how quickly a simple question such as the one originally posted here asking for some idea of the compatibility of his Kuga and caravan are can turn into a topic that needs to be studied in depth to be understood at all, I appreciate that not every question can have a simple answer but I’m sure someone on here most probably has at some point driven a Kuga and has a simple answer as to its suitability rather than this in depth over technical answer, often this type of topic seems to end up being a battle between who knows the most about the physics of the subject rather than answering the question, I’d have thought that if the OP was able to understand half of the answers given he/she wouldn’t have needed to ask the question in the first place, like many he’s probably given up reading long ago and posted his question somewhere he’ll hopefully get a more simple answer.

BP

A very valid point there Behpee, most probably referring mainly to my previous post, we do sometimes need a quick reminder of how much we’ve deviated from the original point of the thread.

However, not only when it comes to towing and caravanning, many people constantly rely on others to give them a simple answer to what isn’t always a simple question whenever they are faced with making a decision. It is often the case that they have no interest in how the answer was derived, but are just seeking reassurance. In this case, the OP is seeking assurance that a Kuga is “a good tow car”, because he would rather not have to go to the expense of buying a Discovery, which he states as “The option”. Of course, someone has told him, or he has read that a Discovery is the best tow car, hence the reason for his post.

As is usually the case, the regular contributors here offer helpful and informative advice, not only to give a simple answer to the OP’s question, but they spend their time offering explanations based on a sound and fundamental understanding of a particular subject, in this case, that subject is physics, in particular, physics in motion. The fact that the explanations may sometimes seem a little complicated to those expecting a simple answer does not mean that either the Prof, myself or others are attempting to obfuscate, or compete with one another in a “who knows best” contest. Those who spend their time offering in-depth explanations and advice tend to do so because they are passionate about a particular subject, usually through experience or knowledge, and so feel that they may have a little extra to bring to the table.

It’s because of such contributions that this forum remains an excellent source of advice and information for caravanners, although if somebody is only interested in a simple answer, and has no intention of even trying to understand the reasoning behind that answer, then I suppose they could always take it “down the pub.”

 

[Beehpee]

I am fully aware that sometimes it needs to be explained as to why people answer in a certain way so as to show they actually know what they are talking about, informed answers are extremely important as opposed to random answers from someone who knows less than the OP, blinding people with science is not going to be of help at all other than to make people less likely to ask questions and make them more likely to ask down the pub as you put it, maybe a new category of topics should be created, it could be called “Who Knows The Most” where an expert in weights or towing or loading etc etc could raise a point and then anyone wanting a scientific debate can join in and battle it to a conclusion when at which point maybe a moderator could draw a conclusion which could then be posted as a stickie, don’t get me wrong I admire people who are intelligent and can go in to the Nth degree of explaining things but there’s a time when it’s needed and times when it’s not.

BP

 

[otherclive]

I am fully aware that sometimes it needs to be explained as to why people answer in a certain way so as to show they actually know what they are talking about, informed answers are extremely important as opposed to random answers from someone who knows less than the OP, blinding people with science is not going to be of help at all other than to make people less likely to ask questions and make them more likely to ask down the pub as you put it, maybe a new category of topics should be created, it could be called “Who Knows The Most” or “Pi**ing Contests” where an expert in weights or towing or loading etc etc could raise a point and then anyone wanting a scientific debate can join in and battle it to a conclusion when at which point maybe a moderator could draw a conclusion which could then be posted as a stickie, don’t get me wrong I admire people who are intelligent and can go in to the Nth degree of explaining things but there’s a time when it’s needed and times when it’s not.

BP

I find the discussion quite interesting. But taking your point someone should have told the OP " That given your car's kerb weight and caravan MTPLM, go and buy a bigger car, or a lighter van. There is a whole world to choose from. End of"

 

[Icaru5]

I am fully aware that sometimes it needs to be explained as to why people answer in a certain way so as to show they actually know what they are talking about, informed answers are extremely important as opposed to random answers from someone who knows less than the OP, blinding people with science is not going to be of help at all other than to make people less likely to ask questions and make them more likely to ask down the pub as you put it, maybe a new category of topics should be created, it could be called “Who Knows The Most” or “Pi**ing Contests” where an expert in weights or towing or loading etc etc could raise a point and then anyone wanting a scientific debate can join in and battle it to a conclusion when at which point maybe a moderator could draw a conclusion which could then be posted as a stickie, don’t get me wrong I admire people who are intelligent and can go in to the Nth degree of explaining things but there’s a time when it’s needed and times when it’s not.

BP

The reason that people answer “in a certain way” is not to demonstrate that they know what they are talking about, but to offer an insight and reasoning to others.

Again I do understand your point BP, in that not everyone wants to give a great deal of thought to their decision making, but your suggestion of a new category of topics called “Who knows most”, or the other title you mention only demonstrates even further that you feel those who offer in depth explanations here merely do so in an attempt to prove themselves to others, to which I can only categorically disagree.

I hope I’ve made my point, I fully respect yours, and as we really have deviated far off topic here, I’m going to leave it there.

 

[Raywood]

I think the point here is that before you buy a caravan you need to do some research. The experienced amongst us know this and assuming we are changing the car or caravan can fairly easily identify a shortlist of possible purchases.
What we have hear is someone innocently buying a caravan that appealed to them without fully understanding the weights and power issues. I think we understand that this happens and that the answers on here are all trying to help out, and in general follow the same pattern, which in this case is unfortunately that the car is not big enough for the caravan, even if it can legally tow it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

For many none or new to caravanning, there is often a perception of it just a case of hitching up and going, and that's what makes caravanning attractive to many. But that perception we exude, belies the the research (thanks Raywood for the reminder) and preparation that's gone on before hitting the road.

Behpee, like it or not there are lots of technicalities that should be sorted before starting to tow a caravan. Some have legal consequences some just have trouser changing consequences if we get it wrong. Many of these are do it once and it remains valid as long the outfit remains the same, but others should be reassessed if one or more relevant criteria change. I recall how more receptive youngsters are to the risks of a potential situation if they have been also told "why" its hazardous or wrong. I hope grown adults also appreciate the reasoning behind advice. I am also conscious that there is no learning experience as good as when something goes wrong, but in the case of caravanning the consequences of a wrong call can be very serious so being fore warned is a good thing.

Ocasionally there can be just a simple "yes or no" to a specific question, but all too often it can't be that simple, for a multitude of reasons. Often the question asked does not provide enough detailed information to be able to give a specific answer.

Is the Korean Urban Go Anywhere a good tow car?, can be answered Yes and No it depends on what the questioner is intending to tow with it, It also heavily depends on how the outfit is loaded, and the skill and experience of the driver, so there is no simple answer. Also I never forget that this is an open forum and is read by many who may dip into it to see if there is answer that fits a situation they may have, for example another K.U.G.A. owner who want's to know if it can tow? but without realising that their caravan differs significantly from the OP's unit, the simple "Yes" answer to the OP may not be appropriate to the casual reader, and they need to be made aware of it.

The next thing is who's advice to believe? School children are told the internet is an incredible source of information, they are also told it's a dis-credible source of miss information. They are given instruction on how to assess the authority of a source, and readers of PC forum should do the same. On this forum we are all made anonymous by the use of user names and avatars, so there is no way from just the user name to extrapolate the authority with which the advice may be given. Sadly we have seen our fair share of those with mischief intent who have deliberately spread misinformation. Most have been spotted and dealt with by our Moderators and Admin staff. And there are those who profess a point but who are mistaken about it. And there are those who do genuinely know what their discussing from professional experience, but how can a reader know the difference between them?

I get round that issue by explaining the logic behind advice and comments I make, and i encourage the reader to review the process and or seek professional advice, before acting on anything I have suggested. The number of affirmative responses I have received suggest they value the advice and the way I present information.

I will continue to apply my methods, It is up to the reader to decide if they want to read it all or not. I welcome discussion where there is some doubt about the accuracy of my advice, but there is no reason to comment just because I provide in depth responses.

Just as an aside, How many times have you looked at a magazine review, The information provided is never a simple yes or no, its always quite verbose, and littered with opinions, yet becasue its published in a magazine, you tend to believe it becasue you believe the magazine will only employ professionals. Ultimately if there is a conclusion its still only an opinion, and if you look at an alternative magazine, you may find an opposing conclusion.

Life is full of opinions only some are right.

 

[Hutch]

Well after 35 reply postings Legin has only been back 3 times maybe he has lost interest and joined Caravan Talk to get a straight forward reply. Lets wait for him to ask about nose weights. :evil: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

 

[Parksy]

I am fully aware that sometimes it needs to be explained as to why people answer in a certain way so as to show they actually know what they are talking about, informed answers are extremely important as opposed to random answers from someone who knows less than the OP, blinding people with science is not going to be of help at all other than to make people less likely to ask questions and make them more likely to ask down the pub as you put it, maybe a new category of topics should be created, it could be called “Who Knows The Most” where an expert in weights or towing or loading etc etc could raise a point and then anyone wanting a scientific debate can join in and battle it to a conclusion when at which point maybe a moderator could draw a conclusion which could then be posted as a stickie, don’t get me wrong I admire people who are intelligent and can go in to the Nth degree of explaining things but there’s a time when it’s needed and times when it’s not.

BP

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: Nooooo!
Moderators are here to try to keep this forum on an even keel by ensuring that the few rules that we have are respected, and to help where we can if anyone is having difficulties in gaining access or posting to the message boards. We don't normally decide which piece of technical advice trumps all other advice, unless a safety issue is compromised.
The OP asked a question and has received some excellent advice, backed up by valid technical explanations as to how that advice was arrived at.
If the OP or anyone else wants to read the technical explanations and make their own judgement on how accurate the points made may be, that's fine.
If they are happy with a short answer it is normally given before the technical explanations begin, and in this case the OP was given one quite early in the thread and isn't compelled to discover the reasoning behind the answer if they don't want to.
In the meantime any forumite is free to discuss any aspect of caravanning on the message boards, and if topics do stray really a long way too far off topic we can always provide a friendly nudge back toward the thread.

 

[Parksy]

Well after 35 reply postings Legin has only been back 3 times maybe he has lost interest and joined Caravan Talk to get a straight forward reply. Lets wait for him to ask about nose weights. :evil: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

That's unworthy of you Hutch and I'm a bit disappointed that you'd think it's ok to post something so insulting to us.
There are many caravan forums on the internet and you or anyone else are free to use whichever ones you want to.
I'm sure that Caravan Talk could supply technical advice, and hopefully they never resort to telling a newbie asking a question something that they want to hear rather than something that will keep them and other road users safe in the interests of brevity.
If you don't like technical replies don't read them.

 

[otherclive]

Well after 35 reply postings Legin has only been back 3 times maybe he has lost interest and joined Caravan Talk to get a straight forward reply. Lets wait for him to ask about nose weights. :evil: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

That's unworthy of you Hutch and I'm a bit disappointed that you'd think it's ok to post something so insulting to us.
There are many caravan forums on the internet and you or anyone else are free to use whichever ones you want to.
I'm sure that Caravan Talk could supply technical advice, and hopefully they never resort to telling a newbie asking a question something that they want to hear rather than something that will keep them and other road users safe in the interests of brevity.
If you don't like technical replies don't read them.

Looking at the emojis I think the reply came into the TIC category.

 

[Hutch]

Well after 35 reply postings Legin has only been back 3 times maybe he has lost interest and joined Caravan Talk to get a straight forward reply. Lets wait for him to ask about nose weights. :evil: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

That's unworthy of you Hutch and I'm a bit disappointed that you'd think it's ok to post something so insulting to us.
There are many caravan forums on the internet and you or anyone else are free to use whichever ones you want to.
I'm sure that Caravan Talk could supply technical advice, and hopefully they never resort to telling a newbie asking a question something that they want to hear rather than something that will keep them and other road users safe in the interests of brevity.
If you don't like technical replies don't read them.

I always read the Techy replies, always willing to learn something new. Just trying not to upset anybody, trying to be good.

 

[Parksy]

I always read the Techy replies, always willing to learn something new. Just trying not to upset anybody, trying to be good.

Perhaps you'd care to add a comment to a different caravan related internet forum which compares their forum, and it's contributors genuine attempts to offer good technical advice backed with facts, unfavourably with this forum?
I can't speak for other forums or their moderator teams of course, but I have a feeling that sarcastic and insulting one liners similar to your earlier derogatory comment about this forum wouldn't be any more appreciated elsewhere than they are here.

 

[Hutch]

Parksy, I wasn't trying to derate, The Forum and the Postings, I was just pointing out that The Original Poster had not been back on the thread, to acknowledge anyone's reply to his question. Thats all , sorry it came over the wrong way to anyone.

 

[Parksy]

Parksy, I wasn't trying to derate, The Forum and the Postings, I was just pointing out that The Original Poster had not been back on the thread, to acknowledge anyone's reply to his question. Thats all , sorry it came over the wrong way to anyone.

Well after 35 reply postings Legin has only been back 3 times maybe he has lost interest and joined Caravan Talk to get a straight forward reply. Lets wait for him to ask about nose weights. :evil: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

I don't intend to get into a long debate Hutch, but have a look at the highlighted text.
The O.P was given 'a straight forward reply' early into the topic including valid comments from yourself.
When it was realised that the tow vehice MTPLM differed from that first indicated, further responses were added, backed by the reasoning behind the replies that he'd been given.
You seem to imply that the caravan forum that you mentioned would have given a more 'straight forward reply' than that given here because forum members decided to explain the theory behind vehicle towing capacity and the effects of weight and speed on overall caravan stability.
If the earlier 'straight forward reply' had satisfied the OP that's fine, but other people who haven't yet joined often browse this forum.
We'd encourage all 'lurkers' to join us to ask questions, especially before they commit to a purchase, but seemingly unfavourable comparisons with other caravan forums do nobody any favours and could discourage newbies from joining this forum.
I make no apologies for making crystal clear that jibes and insults aimed at this forum or website, however jokingly meant, are like a red rag to a bull to me.
I would never allow a PCv forum member to insult a different caravan forum on our message boards, so why would I let things pass when somebody who is a forum member makes similar remarks about technical information supplied by knowledgeable fellow members in good faith?

 

[Beehpee]

I also had no intention to upset or be rude to anyone in particular but simply wanted to try and illustrate how in my opinion a much less technical answer to a question would be far better understood, as I said in my first reply I enjoy this forum loads and read it daily usually morning and evening because I’m interested in people’s take on this hobby we share, get too technical and I’m straight on to the next topic which I expect is not uncommon, if people didn’t know I’ve been fitting amongst other things trackers to cars and caravans for the last 25+ years and when I read topics about trackers and the way they work etc I often have to smile at the incorrect ideas people have and I have to stop myself from joining in what would become a protracted debate that would become boring to most, anyway onwards and upwards as they say, have a great weekend and look forward to a cracking spring and summer.

BP

 

[Icaru5]

With the very best of intentions and for all the right reasons, may I suggest that now might be a good time to snap a padlock on this one Parksy ?

 

[Dustydog]

With the very best of intentions and for all the right reasons, may I suggest that now might be a good time to snap a padlock on this one Parksy ?

Please no padlocks. Cutting the chase there is some very sound advice on here that may help the OP or other newbies in a similar position. B)

 

[Icaru5]

With the very best of intentions and for all the right reasons, may I suggest that now might be a good time to snap a padlock on this one Parksy ?

Please no padlocks. Cutting the chase there is some very sound advice on here that may help the OP or other newbies in a similar position. B)

Sorry Dusty, I only mean lock from further replies. As you correctly say, some sound advice, but surely this post has run its course and is in danger of being remembered for all the wrong reasons, but then again, it’s not really my place to call time ...

 

[Craigyoung]

I would lock it before hutch gets banned !!

 

[Hutch]

No need :cheer: