Towing mirror knocked off by a white van!

[Parksy]

Prof. John L posted a Caravan Club technical sheet in June 2011 which sets out existing law regarding towing mirrors.
To see John's information Click Here

 

[Lutz]

An EU Directive is not British Road Law so at the moment is a bit of meaningless garbage in the UK, but I get your point. I doubt whether there is anyhing specific in British regualtions regarding the use of extension mirrors except to say you must have adequate vision. There is no defintiion on "adequate" vision.

Surfer,
If you care to read the UK Vehicle Construction & Use Regulations then you will see that they reference the EU Directive that I provided the link to, so the Directive is not a meaningless bit of garbage, but the law. Parksy's reference to the thread which leads to John's valuable information also mentions the very same EU Directive.

One of the problems with EU/EC directives is that member states have the power of veto and as such these thing have to have a rider that say adopted on ……….. We the UK use this veto more than most and therefore must be seen along UK legislation.

It wouldn't have become a Directive if the UK had vetoed it. Once it has become a Directive it must be incorporated into national law and this has been done.

 

[Surfer]

Prof. John L posted a Caravan Club technical sheet in June 2011 which sets out existing law regarding towing mirrors.
To see John's information Click Here

Parksey do you think that hearsay evidence would stand up in a court of law? As I pointed out on that thread where John responded what the CC and an insurance company write is meaningless unless backed up by law. Until I see the regulation specifically defining the use of extension mirros, not exterior mirrors then i will assume what is written to be fiction. Incidentally the article that John copied and pasted referred to exterior mirros and not extension mirrors.
I am not disputing the use of extension mirrors which i think is a good idea but I am disputing some of the interpretations of the law when there does not seem to be anything specific relating to the use of extension mirrors. On my previous vehicle even with extension mirrors I could not see the back corner of our caravan although I had adequate vision of the adjacent lane. No issue with that on my 4 x 4.

 

[Dustydog]

This is all I can find in the various statutory instruments including the latest Road Traffic Act.
I'm all for safety and certainly prefer towing with two extension mirrors. If my mirrors can pass through a gap there's every chance the caravan will as well.

But I do not believe there is any Legal reason why I have to use extension mirrors. No doubt one of the learned Insurers will reveal their source of knowledge.
Thus I suspect "technically" Surfer is correct. Is this not another matter like the good old "85% rule"

Lutz reference to EU Legislation is probably valid if I am towing in Europe but I don't see how it can modify English Law without Parliament passing another Law

???

S T A T U T O R Y I N S T R U M E N T S
2005 No. 3165
ROAD TRAFFIC
The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use)(Amendment)(No. 4)
Regulations 2005

(c) where the bottom edge of an exterior mirror is less than 2 m above the road surface
when the vehicle is laden, that mirror shall not project more than 20 cm beyond the
overall width of the vehicle or, in a case where the vehicle is drawing a trailer
which has an overall width greater than that of the drawing vehicle, more than 20
cm beyond the overall width of the trailer;
(d) where the bottom edge of an exterior mirror, which complies with the requirements
of Community Directive 2003/97 or 2005/27 or ECE Regulation 46.02, is less than
2 m above the road surface when the vehicle is laden, that mirror shall not project
more than 25 cm beyond the overall width of the vehicle or, in the case where the
vehicle is drawing a trailer which has an overall width greater than that of the
drawing vehicle, more than 25 cm beyond the overall width of the trailer;

 

[Parksy]

Parksey do you think that hearsay evidence would stand up in a court of law? As I pointed out on that thread where John responded what the CC and an insurance company write is meaningless unless backed up by law. Until I see the regulation specifically defining the use of extension mirros, not exterior mirrors then i will assume what is written to be fiction. Incidentally the article that John copied and pasted referred to exterior mirros and not extension mirrors.
I am not disputing the use of extension mirrors which i think is a good idea but I am disputing some of the interpretations of the law when there does not seem to be anything specific relating to the use of extension mirrors. On my previous vehicle even with extension mirrors I could not see the back corner of our caravan although I had adequate vision of the adjacent lane. No issue with that on my 4 x 4.

Hi Surfer
It's entirely up to you whether you use extension mirrors or not, the pamphlet produced by the Caravan Club is in my opinion an authoritative statement of fact which gives good practical advice to motorists who tow trailers or caravans so that they are highly unlikely to end up in a court of law because of an inadequate rear view if they have followed the advice.
The Caravan Club wrote:
In all of the legislation regarding mirrors, the requirements are defined in an extremely complicated manner. Rather than giving a confusing (if technically) exact definition, a good approximation would be to say that for a typical car-caravan combination, you need to be able to see a zone at least 4-5m wider than the caravan at a distance of about 10-20m behind the caravan. If you really want to see the full detail of the legislative requirements, see the section below on ‘Legislation’ for how to find this. If you are at all unsure of the legality of your car mirrors in providing an ‘adequate’ view to the rear, The Club recommends that you purchase a pair of towing mirrors that are approved to directives 2003/97 or 2005/27. By doing this you will avoid the likelihood of being stopped by the police and risking prosecution, with the added bonus that, if and when you purchase a new vehicle after 26 January 2010, you will not need to buy new mirrors!
As you can see, if you wish to find the full legislative requirements the links are provided for you to do this but I don't think that the laws actually refer to the use of extension mirrors.
The law appears to stipulate what constitutes an 'adequate' rear view from the drivers seat of a vehicle.
If a caravan or trailer is attatched to the vehicle the view might (or might not) be restricted and the law is broken if this 'adequate' rear view is not maintained.
In order to maintain this 'adequate' rear view (as the CC pamphlet mentions, exact information is available) it may be necessary to use extension mirrors but the legislation does not state that extension mirrors must be used, only that the 'adequate' rear view be maintained.
The legislation then goes on to stipulate the legal criteria for extension mirrors if they are used but the main thrust of the legislation is about the adequacy of the view from the drivers seat of a vehicle, irrespective of whether or not the vehicle is towing.
In effect the assumption that relevant legislation is about extension mirrors is a complete red herring, the legislation is about the available field of vision from a vehicle drivers seat so in some ways you are quite correct.

 

[Lutz]

Thus I suspect "technically" Surfer is correct. Is this not another matter like the good old "85% rule"

Lutz reference to EU Legislation is probably valid if I am towing in Europe but I don't see how it can modify English Law without Parliament passing another Law

???

Firstly, there is no such thing as EU legislation. It does not become legislation until it is ratified by national law, which it has done in the UK by corresponding amendment of the Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations. The law says that the vehicle must comply with the Construction and Use Regulations and this includes all applicable amendments. What you have quoted, Dustydog, is just one of those amendments.
Secondly, a mirror is a mirror. There is no distinction between requirements for the standard mirror and those applying to an extension mirror. If the standard mirror doesn't meet the regulations then an extension mirror must be fitted which does.

 

[Dustydog]

Thus I suspect "technically" Surfer is correct. Is this not another matter like the good old "85% rule"

Lutz reference to EU Legislation is probably valid if I am towing in Europe but I don't see how it can modify English Law without Parliament passing another Law

???

Firstly, there is no such thing as EU legislation. It does not become legislation until it is ratified by national law, which it has done in the UK by corresponding amendment of the Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations. The law says that the vehicle must comply with the Construction and Use Regulations and this includes all applicable amendments. What you have quoted, Dustydog, is just one of those amendments.
Secondly, a mirror is a mirror. There is no distinction between requirements for the standard mirror and those applying to an extension mirror. If the standard mirror doesn't meet the regulations then an extension mirror must be fitted which does.

Thanks for that Lutz.
No wonder an old dog like me is confused , what with Legislation, Directives, Regulations.
However I do fully understand your last sentence.

 

[kelvin3]

One of the problems is the way these things are referenced. Lets say for example this law/regulation was originally laid down in 1968, until a complete rewrite it will always be referenced as; blahy blar 1968. No part of this original may be relevant because there is probably lets say 5 amendments which supersede this original plus as Lutz say EU/EC directives which have been adopted (sounds better than ratified) must be taken into consideration.

Problems (not sure about this scenario) can happen when the last amendment and the directive differ. A prime example being Statute Barred on the continent it is 3 years, in England/Wales in is 6 years and in Scotland it is 5. basically it is then up to the judiciary to set a precedence. Confused you will be because any precedence made by any commonwealth country before, ‘what ever date it was’ can be accepted! Can being the key word.

This is basically why there is always a grey area and lots of confusion. And it will always be so until we get shut of common law judges and as a country decide in who’s park we want to play!

Rant over

Given my measurements, well not mine but the car and van, I still lean towards if I’m travelling by motorway then there on, if not leave them off?

 

[Lutz]

I don't think that the laws actually refer to the use of extension mirrors.

As I mentioned in my previous reply, the law doesn't have to refer to the use of extension mirrors. I therefore repeat my statement that if the standard mirror doesn't comply with the field of view requirements as laid down in the Construction and Use Regulations and defined in detail in EU Directive 2003/97/EC referred to in the said Regulations then it should be plainly obvious that a mirror must be fitted which does, i.e. a type approved extension mirror.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. I have not trawled all the way this subject but the one thing that occurs to me is that The Camping & Caravanning Club covered the issue of Towing Mirrors in their January 2010 monthly club magazine.
Apparently it is (at the date of publication) NOT a legal requirement to have towing mirrors,BUT however it is a legal requirement to Adequate Rear Vision. The logistics of which boil down to the ability to see that which is rearward at a distance of 4meters either side and at a distance of 20metres behind the driver NOT 20metres from the mirror face.
There was also a law in place that requires NEW CARS registered from the 26th January 2010 must use an 'e' or 'E' marked mirror with a number starting with 03* or 02 respectively.

 

[Lutz]

I think you are confusing 1868 with 1986, Kelvin. Later amendments will also always refer to the Regulations of 1986. I have not identified any conflict between the EU Directive and the amendments so I can't quite see what the problem is. You have referred to a Statute Barred on the Continent but that is not the case here because an EU Directive is not a statute. It did not become law in the UK until the respective amendment was approved and came into effect. The effective date of EU Directives can therefore vary from country to country as some will be quicker to adopt them in their national law than others.

 

[Lutz]

Hi to you all out there. I have not trawled all the way this subject but the one thing that occurs to me is that The Camping & Caravanning Club covered the issue of Towing Mirrors in their January 2010 monthly club magazine.
Apparently it is (at the date of publication) NOT a legal requirement to have towing mirrors,BUT however it is a legal requirement to Adequate Rear Vision. The logistics of which boil down to the ability to see that which is rearward at a distance of 4meters either side and at a distance of 20metres behind the driver NOT 20metres from the mirror face.
There was also a law in place that requires NEW CARS registered from the 26th January 2010 must use an 'e' or 'E' marked mirror with a number starting with 03* or 02 respectively.

Exactly, Travelling Rooster. What constitutes adequate rear vision is laid down in detail in the EU Directive.
And you are also correct to state that in the UK cars registered from the 26th January 2010 (in other countries this date may be different) must use an 'e' or 'E' marked mirror and this applies to both the standard mirror (when driving solo) and/or the extension mirrors which are necessary to comply with the field of vision requirements when towing.

 

[JohnM20]

Hi All
One thing that seems to have been overlooked in all the posts is the fact that most towing mirrors don't obscure the view in the car's fitted mirrors. This means that both the mirrors on each side can be adjusted to achieve a very wide total field of view. I also have my car mirrors tipped very slightly downwards. This means that I can watch my caravan wheel's position against the kerb particularly when the turn is very tight. I once did a very short tow without the extension mirrors and, boy, did I miss them.

JohnM

 

[Surfer]

As I had to tow our twin axle back to storage today, I made a specific point of checking the vision allowed from the exterior and the extension mirrors.
With the normal exterior mirror I have reasonably good vision in my normal driving position, however if I lean to my right slightly I have more than adequate vision down the side of the caravan, but cannot see the rear of the caravan. I do have clear vision of the lane down my offside as far as the eye can see.
Doing the same with the extension mirror I had to lean ever so slightly, but not as much to see the rear end of the caravan and also to see down the middle lane as far as the eye can see.
I have new Milenco extension mirrors fitted on my 4 x 4 so I assume they comply with everything from A to Z! I can honestly say that I have no need for the extension mirrors as my rearward vision is more than adequate and thsi can be show to any police offcier that cares to stop me.
It seems that extension mirrors is not law, but adequate vision maybe, but "adequate is not defined so therefore in the interests of safety it is best to use at least one extension mirror preferably on your right if touring in the UK and Ireland. Any extension mirror will need to comply with any regualtion aimed at it.

 

[chrisbee1]

Without going into the technicalities of the law relating to mirrors I can’t understand why someone would drive without extension mirrors. As far as I’m concerned the greater the view to the rear, the better. When towing my 4x4 has grand aeros fitted. In addition I have a small blind spot mirror fitted to the top of the n/s aero AND a rear view camera on all the time (showing the road adjacent to the vehicle

). Nothing sneaks up on me from behind!

 

[Lutz]

.... but "adequate" is not defined .....

It should be understood that only mirrors (standard or extension, as applicable) which fulfil the requirements of the Construction and Use Regulations can be described as providing "adequate" field of vision.

 

[Parksy]

.................. In addition I have a small blind spot mirror fitted to the top of the n/s aero AND a rear view camera on all the time (showing the road adjacent to the vehicle

). Nothing sneaks up on me from behind!

Be careful if you tow with the rear view camera switched on all of the time, it may be a traffic offence to drive in a forward gear with an active monitor if a police officer notices it. I think that the law was introduced to prevent lorry drivers from watching portable television sets whilst driving and technically it still applies to monitors connected to rear view cameras.

 

[chrisbee1]

Hi Parksy, I researched the legalities of rear view cameras thoroughly before I fitted mine. Hence the statement in brackets.

 

[Lutz]

.... but "adequate" is not defined .....

It should be understood that only mirrors (standard or extension, as applicable) which fulfil the requirements of the Construction and Use Regulations can be described as providing "adequate" field of vision.

Surfer, as you seem to be questioning the presence of legally defined values, i.e. what constitutes an "adequate" field of vision, may I refer you to The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use)(Amendment)(No.4) Regulations 2005 which under "Explanatory Note" documents the implementation of Directive 2003/97/EC out of which I copied the sketch that is pasted in Travelling Rooster's thread.