Towing Mirrors- The Law - E marks

[RogerL]

Newly purchased mirrors have been required to be E-marked for many years - any unmarked mirrors on sale need to be dealt with by the appropriate enforcement agency. Unmarked mirrors aren't the issue.

This thread started from a claim that earlier, genuinely E-marked mirrors are illegal on new cars - the implication being that caravanners need to go out and buy new mirrors, greatly increasing mirror manufacturer profits.

All new legislation is publicised, in some form, by MfT, DVLA or VOSA. There is no information on this issue on any of their websites.

I can understand that newly manufactured mirrors must always meet the then current E-marking requirements as well as all other requirements.

I cannot accept retrospective legislation without publicity - in any case, retrospective legislation is rarely enacted due reduce enforcement difficulties.

My towing mirrors have E-marks, valid at the time of purchase. My car's type-approval doesn't include a specific mirror.

I'd suggest that Nigel Millbank of Milenco contacts MfT and VOSA and gets them to publicise this to avoid suggestions of commercial bias.

 

[JasonR_374341560]

Yet another example of why todays police get little respect!

I don't think anyone was querying the fact that mirrors without E marks are illegal or could be a danger.

When cars built to a British standard or whatever were/are superseded with cars with laminated windsceens, seat belts in the rear, ABS, Airbags etc.

Are the older models tested to an earlier standard declared illegal officer??????????

I alwyas understood that our police prided themselves re observation and facts, what's your excuse Officer Barry or do you and the police change your cars and scrap the old ones whenever another level of safety comes along.

I begrudge an idiot who can't even follow the basic questions raised here that did not concern unmarked mirrors, but questioned the need to throw away earlier E marked and tested product that are still fit for purpose.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Now I know that my mirrors could be the cause of up to 69% of fatal and serious injury accidents I'll change them.

When I get a new car that is .

 

[MalcolmL]

The topic has rambled on for some time now so it's no surprise if the salient points don't jump out to everyone. Personally, I don't think it was unreasonable of Nigel Millbank of Milenco to raise the points that he did. If he hadn't mentioned that he was from Milenco and it subsequently became known, he would have been castigated for that as well. Some forum contributors wonder why few manufacturers become involved with forum discussions, but given the foegoing posts, is it any wonder?

 

[JasonR_374341560]

Now I know that my mirrors could be the cause of up to 69% of fatal and serious injury accidents I'll change them.

When I get a new car that is .

 

[JasonR_374341560]

Malcom L, you seemed to over look the fact that Nigel started to use un related and dubious points to bolster his case!

For someone in his position that is very poor practice.

 

[Chrisbee]

Look guys, it's all getting silly now. If you got new towing mirrors when you got your new car the extra expense would be a drop in the ocean. That way you would always be up to legal requirements with mirrors. You presumably get a new tow bar when you change your car, why aren't you all moaning about not being able to fit your mk 1 Zodiac towbar to your brand new Mondeo?

Read the thread, pick out the important points and bin the drivel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chrisbee

 

[RogerL]

Because a Mondeo is required to have a specifically type-approved towbar. Mirrors aren't required to be type-approved to the vehicle.

Not everyone has the same high level of disposable cash flow.

 

[trucker]

Jason R if you cannot post your agument without proceeding to call people idiots then dont post. everybody has their own opinion and as I said in a previous post take on board or not that is your choice. as for calling people idiots !!!!!! grow up, its only a thread on a forum.

Kevin

 

[Chrisbee]

Sorry Roger

As I understood it the original post was to inform us that your brand new Mondeo needs towing mirrors with the latest "e" mark, the ones from your old car won't do. Same thing really.

Chrisbee

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Actually Trucker I think you should have aimed that at Barry.

"And finally I wasn't going to respond to the idiot who begrudged spending money on new mirrors"

Which I think might have meant me . Lmmmaaaoooo

Brian ;O)

 

[JasonR_374341560]

I thank you for the kind advice Trucker Kevin.!

As Barry was using "idiot" I saw no problem using it myself after he set the precedence in a post that was only loosely based on what has been posted in this thread.

I'm quite happy to take on factual sensible advice, when unrelated and dubious facts are added I take issue with that as I do with needless waste.

 

[freddy2]

Jason

I have watched this thread grow and grow. The only reason i can imagine you have said, those things, is your'e the one importing the mirrors with the wrong marks.

 

[JasonR_374341560]

Freddy I've managed to get to my advanced years and retirement by always keeping on the right side of the law if you had read the thread correctly you would know that you are wrong!

If you think your conclusion is right may I respectfully advise you that it is never too late to better yourself. Many local authorities run reading and understanding classes for adults.

The art of reading includes gaining an understanding of what's been written, not making up what you want to see

 

[freddy2]

Looking at your posts, I think you mastered the class of making things up a long time ago.

You have contradicted every sensible post made including the policeman.

 

[JasonR_374341560]

As you seem to be trying to make this personal Freddy.

I suggest you try your very best to read the thread again and then maybe you will realise that amongst others the Policeman fails to keep his post in context with what has been posted.

But I'll try and spell it out for you!

No one including me is condoning or advising that anyone uses mirrors that are not E marked or that they use cheap mirrors with faked E marks. That's not too hard to understand surely!

Older correctly manufactured E marked mirrors should not be redundant just because one has a slightly newer car is what I believe is what we have been getting at!

As an example you don't bin your car when Ncap 5 rated ones come along, your older car becomes no more life threatening or a danger than last year's E marked Mirrors compared to this years!

If you read Lutz's post it says

" German authorities are usually pretty thorough and go by the letter of the law when it comes to technical modifications to a vehicle"

I'm lead to believe that an E marked mirror that is a temporary removable addition to your vehicle does not constitute a "technical modification" and would not breach the law or insurers requirements!

So unless an older E marked mirror is damaged or does not give the correct field of view it would be wasteful to replace it and put it in to landfill.

Nigel posting about a case of having no mirrors had no bearing on what was being discussed.

There are many dangerous things happening on our roads and in communities that the Police fail to do anything about and if the powers that be and insurers decide that yesterdays tested and approved E mark mirror is such a danger that motorists should be dragged through the courts and declared uninsured I feel that the police and authority bodies have lost the "kin" plot!

 

[DeliDave]

jason has made a lot of fair points,Ive got emarked mirrors 4years old and I like them I wont buy any more til they break,thats commom sense as far as I can see and i dont think that makes people idiots

 

[Ewan_5130997]

Barry

Also as a caravanner, serving traffic cop, vehicle examiner and collision investigator, I can find nothing in the legislation that states it is an offence to have the older E marked mirrors fitted to a newer car, so long as their design, manufacture, fitting and condition comply with the legislation. I am not infallable and will put my hands up if I am wrong. As I stated in my earlier post above, even examiners with VOSA can find no problem with the older mirrors being fitted to newer cars.

 

[Moderator2_5083849]

Having watched this topic develop, with good arguments and debate, it is now going the way so many topics do with dropping to a personal level by some contributors.

This topic really has run its course, so it is time to let it rest.

Keep the personal stuff out of postings please, or this will end up where so many more have in the past.

 

[JasonR_374341560]

Nice call Moderator 2. It does seem like common sense and fairness wins according to Officer Ewan who sings from the same Hymn book as my insurance investigator contact.

And a big thanks to Ewan for looking in to the matter with a clear view on the posts and a clear open mind and comming up with sensible facts.

It does feel good to be right, and I hope its left there!

 

[Carol_374304703]

Hello everybody, I have read right through this post and am now totally confused. We have only been caravanning 7 months and purchased towing mirrors from a reputable caravan spares shop. After reading this post I checked our mirrors and they do not have an EU mark on the actual mirror or strap but I am sure that it had EU approved on the box that the mirrors came in. We are going to France for the first time this year and we do not want to be illegal either here in the UK or in France. I am quite angry really if a good caravan shop is selling items that are infact illegal to use. Would somebody please kindly tell me if we are legal or illegal, our towcar was reg 2003.

 

[nigel_374240528]

Sorry to post again but, I am concerned someone will believe the statement by Ewan, to be true in law.

It is not.

This is not about winning something like a pub argument.

You will invalidate the vehicles type approval by putting tow mirrors with the earlier type approval on. We, as a certified manufacturer of mirrors have a duty of care to explain the law, which we have done.

My very first post was designed to stop the caravaning community buying illegal mirrors, and to save you wasting your money on illegal mirrors that were also dangerous.

The original post did get hijacked and confused as a result.

For clarity, last year unscrupulous importers were selling dangerous mirrors with no e marks.

This year they are selling dangerous mirrors with the wrong e marks.

I do not suggest mirrors with the old e marks are dangerous.

I do suggest any manufacturer who is willing to sell mirrors without e marks or the obsolete e mark should be avoided for your safety.

I have not yet seen dangerous mirrors with the correct 12-mm e mark, but perhaps that will happen in the future.

We have a large range of fully legal e marked mirrors costing from around

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I noticed you mentioned the word spares earlier Nigel. After buying a pair of your mirrors two of those wobbley pads that stop the door mirror paintwork being damaged dropped off after about 2 weeks and I couldn't find them. I now have to put a piece of rubber strapping there to protect them. Do you sell these pads?

Although a member of the aristocracy I'm a penniless one at that so cannot afford the expense of buying two new mirrors.

All of my income goes on the upkeep of my ancestral family home, Screwwem Hall, and the wages of my stable maid and chamber maid. What little I have left over goes on Horlicks and Viagra.

 

[JasonR_374341560]

It seemed this was dead buried and resolved. I quite believe that Nigels post was well intended, but sadly he added some comments that were misleading.

I'm retired like LordB and have a limited budget. To find out if I am legal when towing I can only read standard issue information such as the highway code or search the web for official advice and guidance and pick the brains of informed contacts.

As this matter is quite serious and I have quite a new tow car and caravan and quite old E marked mirrors finding that I was uninsured and could not claim for my car and caravan in the event of an accident would be devastating.

I handed the question to my insurance broker who I've used since 1970 my caravanning golfing partners son in-law who is a senior exec in motoring insurance and a golfing police officer who also works on crash investigations.

The consensus of opinion is that Ewan is right and using older E marked mirrors will not result in you being un-insured or have you subjected to prosecution providing the mirrors were fit for purpose.

ie. Provide good field of view.

 

[RogerL]

Mirrors aren't like tow-bars - the vehicles type-approval cannot be invalidated unless it specifies a particular mirror, which of course they don't.