Towing speed
- Thread starter DianneT
- Start date
Well definitely stupid, as it's illegal. If the road conditions were ok it probably wasn't dangerous or that stupid. But stupid GB law wouldn't see it that way.
- Nov 11, 2009
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And neither would French law see it as legal too....perhaps they are stupid also?? ( or could the caravanner be just a little bit?)
i thought it was legal when not raining to tow at 80 mph in france..?otherclive said:
frankly 60mph is fine by me
- Nov 11, 2009
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Jonny G
no if you look at the French rules most UK oufits apart from small ones exceed the weight limit for the higher speed limits. As Dianne said it was a large outfit so it would be limited to 90km/hr on autoroutes and dual carriageways if the gross train mass of the vehicle was over 3.5tonnes. That is what the discusions were about some while ago re whether UK outfits should use 80 and 90 stickers.
no if you look at the French rules most UK oufits apart from small ones exceed the weight limit for the higher speed limits. As Dianne said it was a large outfit so it would be limited to 90km/hr on autoroutes and dual carriageways if the gross train mass of the vehicle was over 3.5tonnes. That is what the discusions were about some while ago re whether UK outfits should use 80 and 90 stickers.
Well i never, no i didnt know that, is it something new? over the years never come across a post concerning under and over 3.5 tonnes,but then have just found out speed camera warnings on sat nav are illegal in germany now. i say now as i thought till recently they were only ban in switzerland with france banning them this year...otherclive said:
was legal..
Because that's my perogative!Prof John L said:
I said that the driver must be stupid as he was breaking the Law.
Because a caravan is large doesn't make it heavy.
Not sure where satnav speed camera comes in to this, but you don't have to have speed camera warning enabled on a satnav to be warned about speed camera locations or speed limits. You also don't need somebody sat beside you with a map. For business drivers working in Europe crossing multiple countries with a raft of regulations and different speed limits a warning system can be very sensible and help a driver keep to the local laws.
Law makers are generally out of touch or behind the technology.
- Mar 14, 2005
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I don't know what technology you are thinking about, but as yet, there's no family-sized caravan on the market with a stability threshold speed of much above 60mph. Once exceeded, an outfit would not regain stability without some form of active intervention.Gybe said:
Nope, it's always been the case. There has been no change in the law although it is often disregarded.JonnyG said:
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Amazing how many 'experienced' caravanners just drive into Europe in blissful ignorance of the countries laws, then no doubt complain that the police deliberately target Brits....no wonder!
That's a little flippant. We have enough laws in GB to worry about, driving in Europe we are on the wrong side of the road and navigating unfamiliar routes generally when on holiday trips so we have a lot to think about as well as trying to cope with different laws. It's rather discourteous to suggest that GB caravanners drive in "blissful ignorance". I find fellow Brit caravanners in Europe very respectful and sensible in the main and knowledgeable of local driving requirements. But a little aid to stay withing local laws never hurt anyone. Brit drivers, solo or towing are targeted as we're seen as a soft touch in some parts of Europe, nothing to do with knowledge of local laws.otherclive said:
'Lutz' "I don't know what technology you are thinking about" Nothing that has anything to do with caravans.
My understanding is that UK caravans stability and build standards have exeeded the 100kph requirements for many years and long before current chassis, stability aids and aerodyamic improvements. I understand that UK caravan manufacturers have rated their vans in the past for speeds far in excess of 60mph parially due to higher speed limits elsewhere. It would also be rather strange for any caravan or vehicle manufacturer to build to within a tight speed or stabilty safety margin.
A quote from the Dodge Viper driver who towed a factory loaned standard showrooom trim Abbey caravan to a 137mph world speed record some years ago "The caravan was remarkably stable however and it was only reaching the end of the runaway which prevented us from going even faster".
ps Please Please don't try it yourself, well not on the public highway anywhere in Europe.
Stability wise, it's usually the car that's the problem (or badly loaded caravan). I have towed standard caravans (except no stabiliser fitted, and ATC disconnected) at obscene speeds on test tracks wioth good cars, but with less good cars, I wouldn't go much above 60 mph. The caravans have all been ballasted, with measured noseweights etc, etc. There are some popular tow vehicles out there that have been surprisingly bad, but then good surprises are thrown up, like this years winner of the PC Tow Car Award, the Jaguar XF.
Off topic.
When our own car, our second former "tow car of the year" eventually gets out of the dealers for the umteempth time we'll not be buying Chinese ;-) again.
When our own car, our second former "tow car of the year" eventually gets out of the dealers for the umteempth time we'll not be buying Chinese ;-) again.
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AlKo who produce the majority of chassis, do not approve speeds over 60mph for any of their products. If a UK caravan manufacturer allows higher speeds than this is entirely his own responsibility and he would have no opportunity to pass on any claim in the event of legal action following an accident at such speeds. German type approval authorities require manufacturers fitting electronic stabilising aids, such as AlKo's ATC, to demonstrate stability up to 120km/h in order to provide an adequate safety margin for 100km/h approval.Gybe said:
Actually, the world speed record for a single axle caravan stands at 143mph and 129mph for a twin axle, in both cases with a Porsche Cayenne Turbo as the towcar. Obviously, they were going only in a straight line, had no hazards to watch out for and the record attempt was conducted under ideal weather conditions.
Actually an Aston Martin towed a caravan up to 152mph an averaged over 125mph (on a race track) long long before Porsche dreampt up the Cayenne. There are different records around for towing caravans at speed.
UK manufacturers have approved caravans on Alko chassis for over 80mph!
Personally I wouldn't fancy trying it on any public road or track or breaking the law. I don't beleive that any Alko or any other modern day chassis or caravan will become instantly-dangerously unstable at say 70 or even 80 mph if it's loaded correctly.
100kph or 62mph in some weather conditions could be as bad or worse than 80mph on a balmy summer day on route to the French riviera.
Our recent personal experience suggests that anything other than a trip around the block at 30mph is risky enough for our present and previous tow cars gear box, suspension, engine, management system, aircon,ICE, cruise control or electric windows
UK manufacturers have approved caravans on Alko chassis for over 80mph!
Personally I wouldn't fancy trying it on any public road or track or breaking the law. I don't beleive that any Alko or any other modern day chassis or caravan will become instantly-dangerously unstable at say 70 or even 80 mph if it's loaded correctly.
100kph or 62mph in some weather conditions could be as bad or worse than 80mph on a balmy summer day on route to the French riviera.
Our recent personal experience suggests that anything other than a trip around the block at 30mph is risky enough for our present and previous tow cars gear box, suspension, engine, management system, aircon,ICE, cruise control or electric windows
- May 7, 2012
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There is no right or wrong answer to the maximum safe speed, it depends on the outfit, the loading and the weather conditions. Sixty seems to be a reasonable compromise and the time saved travelling faster than that is not great.
What is clear is that the faster you travel the more fuel you use which is improtant these days.
If you exceed the speed limit and get caught you knew what you were doing so you have to accept the consequences. If you exceed the speed limit and cause an accident you may have to live with the consequences.
What is clear is that the faster you travel the more fuel you use which is improtant these days.
If you exceed the speed limit and get caught you knew what you were doing so you have to accept the consequences. If you exceed the speed limit and cause an accident you may have to live with the consequences.
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True, but each outfit has a threshold speed below which it will recover from instability of its own accord without any active intervention and above which it will get completely out of control if no action is taken in the event of instability occurring. This speed varies from outfit to outfit, depending on a multitude of factors, but is generally somewhere around 60mph.Raywood said:
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Nigel Hutson said:
I find Nigel's brief report quite interesting and very surprising!, but I'm not convinced the conclusion about the tow vehicles being to be mainly to blame for instability can be safely transferred to life off the test track.
Unlike the test track, most caravans are not perfectly trimmed, and most UK roads will not be as forgiving, but probably the biggest difference will be the skill set and experience of most caravan towers.
I hear what you say John, and very much agree with regards to the skill of the driver etc (or lack of!). However, I can assure you that the test tracks aren't billiard table smooth in many cases. There aren't some of the external forces working on the outfits (passing lorries etc), but in many other respects, every day driving is simulated (test tracks are not all oval) as best it can be. Plus, of course it's much safer for everyone to do the testing on tracks.
As the vehicles in each weight class tow the same model caravan, ballasted to the 85% of the kerbside weight of that vehicle and with appropriate noseweight (and the vehicles themselves are also ballasted), how can the outfits be so different stability wise if the towcars have no bearing? Same driver, same caravan, different tow car. My "seat of the pants" feeling has generally been backed up by other judges and dynamic data. Therefore, a good, stable tow car may well make a poorer driver seem better than a poor car in the hands of a better driver. I do not regard myself as a good driver (my driving ability is for others to judge), but there are certain popular towcars that I wouldn't have given to me as they're sloppy, and in some cass down right unstable (dangerous?) at higher speeds, and then thee are the good ones which feel rock steady at speeds well in excess of the UK towing limit.
As the vehicles in each weight class tow the same model caravan, ballasted to the 85% of the kerbside weight of that vehicle and with appropriate noseweight (and the vehicles themselves are also ballasted), how can the outfits be so different stability wise if the towcars have no bearing? Same driver, same caravan, different tow car. My "seat of the pants" feeling has generally been backed up by other judges and dynamic data. Therefore, a good, stable tow car may well make a poorer driver seem better than a poor car in the hands of a better driver. I do not regard myself as a good driver (my driving ability is for others to judge), but there are certain popular towcars that I wouldn't have given to me as they're sloppy, and in some cass down right unstable (dangerous?) at higher speeds, and then thee are the good ones which feel rock steady at speeds well in excess of the UK towing limit.
Well, it wasn't me on the A14 as I was in France on the motorways. But I will be on A14 next weekend..
I don't have an outfit that is over 3.5t so if its not raining we tow at 70-75 in France conditions permitting of course.... Our van has no trouble staying on the ground in a straight line..at home on motorways I see nothing wrong with towing at 60-65 maybe, (car are allowed to drive between 70-80 so i just make the necessary adjustments when towing) but again if conditions permits.
But I think stupid also relates to people indicating right at an island and precede to go straight on, turning left from a right hand lane and vise versa. I would like to see more fines and people getting caught for not driving properly..... speed on its own is not the only major factor of accidents so why are speeders the lowest of the lowest? Just an idle thought..
If sat nav and garmins are becomming illegall in Germany especailly, could one ask WHY are the germans building car with these items built in???
Should the government tell audi, VW not to put them in as standard fit??
I don't have an outfit that is over 3.5t so if its not raining we tow at 70-75 in France conditions permitting of course.... Our van has no trouble staying on the ground in a straight line..at home on motorways I see nothing wrong with towing at 60-65 maybe, (car are allowed to drive between 70-80 so i just make the necessary adjustments when towing) but again if conditions permits.
But I think stupid also relates to people indicating right at an island and precede to go straight on, turning left from a right hand lane and vise versa. I would like to see more fines and people getting caught for not driving properly..... speed on its own is not the only major factor of accidents so why are speeders the lowest of the lowest? Just an idle thought..
If sat nav and garmins are becomming illegall in Germany especailly, could one ask WHY are the germans building car with these items built in???
Should the government tell audi, VW not to put them in as standard fit??
sat nav are not becoming illegal but camera locations warnings are illegal now in most european countries and the uk lookssmiley said:
likely to follow suit.. It seems a crazy idea really although those that claim one should always have an eye on ones speedo,just in case will disagree with me,but for me a warning serves a good purpose regardless the alternative is a lot of drivers will be hitting their
brakes when they see the camera and this itself will cause a problem regardless of if they are speeding or not,as plenty of drivers who are not speeding still seem to hit their brakes at the sight of a speed camera.......
I'm fascinated and would love to know how Herman, LeClerc or Pietro Plod will know if speed camera detection is enabled on a Satnav. If I wanted to use my personal satnav to detect German camera locations I could have the speed cam files on a seperate card that could swifly be removed before the Plods got near the car or satnav.JonnyG said:
It's also quite a simple matter to change the data so it doesn't show as speed camera detection.
My employer's (I'm a part timer) work trips on European roads are time sensitive and all the drivers find themselves struggling to keep up with changes in speed limits on roads and navigate British RHD vehicles and trailer combo's on the other side of the road along with heavy traffic conditions. On work trips the satnavs now have no speed camera warnings but we get a warning by other means (not radar detector) that can be set to give a warning a mile before any type of camera location. We also now use the same system when either solo or caravanning. It's a reminder and helps stop potentially expensive mistakes. If any of us decided to drive 15 mph over a German limit and the slow to the limit a mile before a camera or become very twitchy a mile before a set of lights how keen are the German Plods to pounce and check out our satnav system
How foreign police can police the technology drivers from outsides use is beyond me. On pre selected routes you can simply log camera locations as pot holes, daffodill or toilet stop if you really are intent on speeding and dodging cameras. Plenty of European drivers also have ways around the satanav speedcam rules or just ignore the law and there are a lot less cameras than in the UK.
I've been passed many times in France and European countries by very large non UK caravan combo's that are far in excess of 3500KG and often rattling and lurching along at 60mph + with huge sat dishes bobbling about on the roof and even with a trailer or genny in tow attached to the caravan. Never seen one of those combo's nicked by the Gendarmes so unless you're intent on driving like Stirling Moss in a Grand Prix when towing in Europe you should all be fine
Stay safe!
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