towing with petrol or diesel

[seth1]

The question asked was what is best,petrol or diesel for towing.

As seen we all have different opinions and all have valid points.fare comment.

Reverting back to the original question and giving people fact to decide for themselves,have a chew on this-

audi a4 2.0tfsi 170 ps,204 lbs/ft @1950.

audi a4 2.0 tdi 170 ps,268 lbs/ft @1750.

As already said both will do fine,after all 204 lbs/ft is not to be sniffed at,but the diesel will be more relaxing plus not to mention the fuel economy gain whilst towing even taking into account the cheaper price of petrol.

Some will say the difference in torque is medeocre,but its the difference between a gearchange on a motorway incline,or not. This in itself leading to increased service bills.

 

[xtrailman]

seth

Cut and paste from early in the thread.

Are you related to shady lady?

"But take the turbo of the diesel, and performance drops like a stone.

Add a turbo to a petrol engine, and it's back in contention with the diesel.

audi

2.0 tfs 211 quattro 208bhp/258lbft

2.0 tdi quattro 168bhp/258lbft

From these two engines the petrol will out perform the diesel.

Max torque over a wider rev band.

Down side, less mpg, higher ved.

upside more refined engine."

 

[Guest]

Do I win a prize?

Or am I doing something wrong?

I've had a few X5's, high power Petrol and my wife the 3.0D

We now have 4.2 diesel Audi as it has more room. Towing a large caravan it is faster up an incline than the 4.2 petrol version towing a slightly lighter caravan.

I'm delighted with the Audi diesel compared to my old petrol X5.

As for refinement between the two I'm told that the racing Audi diesels are the quietest smoothest prototypes in their class. My larger Audi is as refined as my last X5 and I have no problems on that front.

 

[seth1]

Ray,i was showing a totally fare comparison,i do remember what has already been said in this thread.I wounder whether comparing different makes would still pass as a fare comparison,i think it would.i.e-

BMW 123d, still 2litre despite the off putting badge,205hp,over 300 lbs,ft of torque.clear advantage.no?

 

[xtrailman]

Seth

I understand what you are saying, there is no clear winner.

All i am trying to say is, the diesel is not the clear winner.

As i have already stated, a turbo petrol will give the Max torque over a wider rev band.

This has to be considered, only by comparing the torque and power graphs of both cars being compared, the gearing etc, can any firm conclusions be made.

I run a diesel mainly because of the economy and VED band.

 

[g_374369443]

[being light hearted here seth] but that BM is not the ideal example of diesel excellence is it? its max torque is produced at a very high for a modern diesel 2000 rpm [LOL] and besides it cannot tow caravans that a fible Mondeo 2.0 ltre petrol could tow.LOL. brilliant car never the less.

Ray is smack on when talking about usable torque rev ranges ect ect. I think this is where the confusion lies. people look only at the max torque figure, and assume that's the be all and end all of the subject.

 

[seth1]

Yes thats fair comment,probably no clear winner,its as broad as its long.petrol has a more wider usable torque curve,whilst the diesel produces (cc for cc, hp for hp)more torque in its shorter curve and lower engine speed,maybe more suited to the towing job?

 

[g_374369443]

http://www.green-car-guide.com/articles/681/1/Fiat-MultiAir-Petrol-Engine/Page1.html
I did say times are a changing, well the link above is what Fiat has been working for over the last few years.

If the Fiat name is not one that brings admiration to the forefront, then remember they led the field in the development of the common rail system for cars.And this latest technology is as massive a improvement for petrol cars as the CR system has been for diesels....

 

[ProfJohnL]

The Fiat MultiAir engine principal sounds promising, But it struck me that the web page g has encouraged us to read is written more like an advertisement, than a technical authoritative appraisal of the system.

Much as I hope the concept does work and produces substantial improvements in both consumption and power, I am wary of the claims which seem to good to be true.

As the article points out that the technology is applicable to all types of IC fuel engines, It still will not help to give a clear winner of the question asked at the head of this thread.

I wait with baited breath for the reports on the Alfa which is destined to be the first commercial product to use the technology.

 

[seth1]

Hello i read about this some 12months ago,its a shame for Fiat for they dont really get the credit they sometimes deserve.I was very suprised to learn that FPT(Fiat power train )reckon their the largest producer of industrial diesels in the world.How much further can the internal combustion engine go?well after reading about this break through it seems a lot more.

Although the idea is not totally new,(cummins engine brakes)its a clever one.internal EGR superb.

 

[Guest]

I think you'll find that Fiat and others are working mainly towards electrohydraulic valve camless diesel engines with new solenoid injectors and advanced pumps. Combined with twin turbo's these new engines will blow petrol engines away, better co2, better power and torque and far better mpg and refinement.

I'd never have thought that I'd be driving a 155mph plus large 4x4 diesel a few years ago. I think there's a lot more to come from diesel and diesel fuels may be the way of the future rather than petrol in the long run.

 

[xtrailman]

Thats interesting about the Fiat engine.

But these advances will only come at a cost.

As i see it the at the moment anyone who has a diesel, has the potential of a rather expensive breakdown, which can occur at any moment.

1/ Turbo failure,

 

[mcghee]

i dont think that diesel engines actually do anything any better than petrol engines. they simply do what they do in a different way. to say that diesels produce more torque and/or power for a given situation is a lie. the only way diesels can operate effectively in road cars is by using forced induction.

the reason for the diesels popularity is quite simply cost. the petrol is every bit as capable as the diesel but will use up more of your pennies. lets not forget that when lorries started using diesel it cost about 1/5th what petrol did. thats why it became so poular.

as far as technology goes, many years ago there was an engine developed by a chap called jim fuelling. a petrol engine producing upto 2000hp from less than 1000cc. i cant remember all the ins and outs but the fuel economy was somewhere in the region of 100mpg. the secret of this engine was reliable, high rpm. a max continuous rpm of about 23000 i believe, which may sound high, but only because you're conditioned to to lower rpm.

so why aren't we all using this marvel of technology?

quite simply because the oil companies bought the rights and shelved it.

 

[Dustydog]

Mc Ghee

Well done for mentioning Jim Feuling who died in december 2002.

The extract below will demonstrate what can be achieved on a "W" engine in a Harley Davidson. Transferring the same technology to a car cannot be that difficult ? So we discuss all this diesel and petrol thing and then out there lies this hidden milestone of technology that could even surpass the Hydrogen car. Now what does Lutz have to say about these engineers keeping it all to themselves?? LOL

Cheers Dustydog.

Feuling holds more than 100 patents in the automotive industry, with R&D contracts with companies such as Cheverolet, Oldsmobile, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, John Deere, and Harley-Davidson. He developed four-valve heads for Harley-Davidsons and later sold the rights to Ultra Cycles. He also designed an engine for American Honda's high-mileage streamliner that delivered a whopping 500 mpg at 55 mph. He holds several land speed records, including one for a motorcycle streamliner at 333.847 mph set on the Bonneville Salt Flats on October 20th, 1999. Feuling R&D's 28,000-square-foot facility is chock full of CAD/CAM/CAE machinery, making the company one of the few private facilities in the world that can design, test, and build entire vehicles (including the engine and drivetrain) under one roof. The W3 engine project initially began in conjunction with Harley-Davidson, but as the design reached the end of the initial stages, Harley opted out. With the withdrawal of Harley-Davidson, Feuling went back to the drawing board. The original design had been structured so that H-D would need to add just six new part numbers to its inventory. When Harley opted out, that concern was scrapped in favor of a design that used only parts available in the aftermarket plus a few application-specific items that could be manufactured by Feuling

 

[DavidW1]

I think the cost advantage, in the UK anyway, has eroded to the point of both types of power being about par actually Mcghee.

If you take initial higher purchase price, higher servicing costs and DERV being about 12% dearer there aint much in it unless you are a megga miler or fill up in France or Spain.

Remember robber Brown putting the extra twopence on for high sulphur diesel, well it's all low sulpher/biodiesel now but I don't remeber a price cut.

And of course the fuel companies explanation for our higher price in UK is lack of refining capacity and DERV being more expensive to produce - it's nothing to with UK diesel car owners and truckers and thus us all of as consumers, being screwed of course!

Getting back to the original question - all the forgoing proves one thing anyway, it aint a straight forward issue and it depends on individual prefferance at the end of the day with neither type of engine giving a clear advantage for tuggers.

Now can we give it a flippin rest folks.

 

[ShadySadie]

Further to past comments I've made. Whilst we were in Portugal a few weeks ago. I read that the UK inflation rate had dropped to a record low point. The main reason given was the fall in fuel prices.

Diesel fuels business and stupid Brown has robbed diesel users and cost business and consumer pockets billions. If the governemt wants to help the economy they should slash the price of diesel. It would help shelf prices in supermarkets and shops, building costs and everyones pockets. If you want to help business, reduce business overheads!

 

[mcghee]

thanks for that dustydog.

i was actually saddened immensely when i learned of jim feuling's death. he showed us what was possible if we opened our minds a bit.

 

[Mikey1]

I agree i wish he would slash fuel duty,but everybody still needs and wants it,its easy revenue for them.

Whatever the cost we will still buy it and he knows that.

 

[ShadySadie]

Mikey, "easy revenue". Not when or with more people on the dole and more and more companies folding.

The Labour idiots need to reduce cost of living and prices to help working and non working families.

Fuel would make a big difference as the experts admit that lower fuel cost resulted in the low inflation figures.

 

[Mikey1]

But as a country we are still buying the same amount of fuel,these was a campaign to get everyone to stop buying fuel for one day,but it had no support.

Because we all want independance we will stil pay for fuel and any other charges,it is easy revenue,got to pay for bailing out the banks somehow!

 

[ShadySadie]

With unemployment on its way to 3 million plus and property prices in suicide dive with tens of thousands facing negative equity and bankruptcy.

Please let us know how "easy revenue" will help the country Mikey!

With serious credible predictions of a further 55% fall in home prices and the UK going bankrupt, easy revenue ideas need to change and change fast. Cutting government waste and expenditure and leaving more money in consumers pockets is probably the countries best hope.

Many will not be going caravanning or buying caravans and accessories ay all if something doesn't change fast. Buying PC Mag or What PC or others will soon fall by the wayside as people join the doll queue or the line at soup kitchens!

Cut fuel tax on diesel now!

 

[g_374369443]

How this thread had taken another turn, which is ok by me, but still remembering how easy one can come up with remarks of hi jack.. LOL

But I believe its good, I notice comic relieve did OK with a new record, although I believe one individual gave 6 million!

Also note whilst new car sales are down, prices for second hand cars seem to be holding, and for some strange reason there does not seem to be as many advertised in the regular places.

Same also seems to apply to second-hand caravans, which seem to be moving pretty good, and again not too many bargains as one would expect.

These sort of things I take as indicators, house prices!What an absolutely waste of time that old egg is, unless you are selling a house you don't need or use! Even if you are up grading then the status quo will be the same. So why do people always go on about house prices? is it not this mentality that saw our greedy bankers *uck up big time!

As for sadies doom predictions! god we have just passed the 2 million mark! on the dole, of which nearly half are regulars! so with only 5% real unemployment you predictions are a good way off, about another 3 million need laying off before we should start getting hysterical. Like I said caravan sights and sales are doing very nicely.....But why only cut diesel fuel tax?What have you got against petrol? And please do not use the haulage industry as a concern, as false economy leads to bigger problems later on......

 

[Mikey1]

Because Shady Sadie whatever the price of fuel we will still pay,look at last year price per litre

 

[ShadySadie]

Feeding a thread with **** to provoke 'whatever'is "hijacking", a little different than making reasonable comment leading on from what has been posted.

Is it really that difficult to work out why diesel prices should be cut, do most people not realise that industry and business run on diesel! Or is it only you g

You can only spend the pound in your pocket once unless Mikey has a magic formula that he'd care to pass on. Reduction in fuel prices cut inflation on the governments own admission. People have to buy fuel, whilst the money keeps going on fuel it can't be spent on other industries products! Not hard to work out really.

House price don't count unless you are selling! What utter ****.

A steady trade in any business is essential, house sales drying up even more as 6 million plus people are soon to be in negative equity and g thinks all is well. No Problem!

Second hand car prices holding! That's debatable. Try selling a second hand car and see how many takers you get!

Not so many months ago we were still being told unemployment was under one million whatever the truth may be. Now it's two million and by the middle of next year its likely to be 3 million plus.

Mikey , your theory is fine when the economy is alive and kicking. It's dead more or less and now the old gags of high fuel prices need to change and change fast.

A continued attack on motorists is not going to help those laid off by the UK car industry, car sales or anything else in the UK economy.

 

[seth1]

Hello G,I take on board your thoughts on the dole situation,and you and me both know the government could well rectify the problem easily,as well pointed out there,s the regulars.

I will presume like us you own your home,does it not bother you that on averge were losing