Towing

[Mikek777]

As a legally qualified International Transport professional, I am amazed that Caravan owners are left to their own devices to work these issues of loading and weight out by themselves, there should really be some mandatory test to gain the E category entitlement.(not through grandfather rights either) and this should cover loading and weight in detail along with the potential issues of towing.

With regard to HGV drivers they get basic training regarding loading, spreading their load and securing their load, but there are still many that get stopped and are found to be overloaded on a axel or two, or their load is not secure or the whole load is too heavy for the vehicle, so what chance does a Caravan owner have?

Sad state of affairs really.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Parksy
You didn't express a link between 85% and safety, That was just my train of thought, and it has certainly been the perception of some new towers when they have asked questions about following it.

The history of the guidance is shrouded with mystery, so again you're correct; I cant tell you when the advice was given, But I do know it was changed at some point. I believe it was originally 75%, and I would guess through people pressure it was upped to enable a wider range of outfits to be formulated.

It really is a crazy situation that apiece of advise is handed down, but no one is prepared to stand up and say when that advice was made, who made it and what was the basis of the advice. Without provenance its validity is really questionable. Even if it is overtly sensible.

It is most likely the advice came through the offices of NCC being the trade body for the industry, but as I have already stated no one ( and that includes the NCC has admitted to being involved with the establishment of the advice.

It has been my view for some time that the advice should be revisited and brought up to date with consideration now given to teh wider scope of technical information available about tow vehicles.

I do not presume that a reworked advice would increase the guidance ratio's, It is just as likely to decrease the ratio, at least for some outfits.

I also think there is a good case as MIke777 suggests that all drivers who wish to tow should have some formal training, even for the tiniest garden trailer. But that is another can of worms.

Ironically I have just found this NCC document from 2014

http://www.towcheck.co.uk/pdfs/Towing_Guide_Sept2014.pdf
Even here the Ratio is calculated on the actual Laden Weight divided by the Kerbweight of the car, so my earlier comments still stand. So its still highly impractical as far as teh caravanner is concerned as very few caravanners will know the actual laden weight of their caravan.

The leaflet does contain some other useful descriptions of items and criteria related to towing - Worth A look.

 

[Dustydog]

It is interesting to note that a lot of seasoned tuggers use a heavy 4x4 which stays on the drive when not caravanning.SWMBO has a more frugal vehicle for everyday use.
Extravagant? Maybe. But sensible.
Any newbie who has never towed really should go on one of the Club's courses.
85%? It was certainly around decades ago and may have emanated from car manufacturers who felt their engines and clutches couldn't cope.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...85%? It was certainly around decades ago and may have emanated from car manufacturers who felt their engines and clutches couldn't cope.

Hello Dusty
I don't think that was the catalyst for the advice.

A believable account I have heard from several sources suggests that when caravanning started to take off, there was no guidance, and that resulted in some totally unsuitable matches reaching the roads. Accident statistics started to show an abnormally high number of towing incidents, and the transport secretary was contemplating legislating against caravans. The newly formed CC and the caravan manufacturers of the time were summonsed to a meeting to discuss the problem.

The government position was it already had a lot of transport regulation covering trailers mainly for commercial use, and it was very much cast in stone, it wold be awkward to create new legislation just focused on caravans, after all a caravan is just a specialised trailer, and general trailers were already covered, To legislate would mean having to form a new class of road vehicle, - something that is not as easy as it sounds.

It was suggested the industry should seek some form of self regulation to reduce the number of RTI's involving caravans. The government left the threat of legislation hanging as a final option if self regulation failed. It was under this threat that the industry and the clubs decided to produce the towing ratio guidance.

This is a common ploy of Governments past and present, rather than direct legislation, leaving it as threat if the industry involved does not clean up its act. More recent examples, are Press Standards, Banking Standards. Education and Health are also under similar strategies, Gov't tells you what the outcome must be, but they don't tell you how to do it. That is usually left to other industry organisations who establish codes of practice which if followed seem to keep the industry within in the law.

The scenario seem feasible, but it is just an educated guess at the initial history in relation to teh caravan guidance..

 

[Dustydog]

Who knows Prof.
The tooth fairy?
Chicken or egg?

 

[SamandRose]

Firstly can I say that I think that the article written by Alan Young and referenced in the OP is excellent, and that I'm grateful to him for providing some clarity in the sea of myths that seem to surround towing in general, and towing caravans in particular. However, I can't help thinking that in discussions about the validity of the 85% guidance, and what weight a caravan has to be to be safely towed, we're sort of looking at the issue the wrong way round.

I think we're all agreed on the following (in no particular order):
- Towing a weight greater than the car's maximum towing limit (specified by the manufacturer) is illegal.
- This and the maximum combined weight of car and trailer (3500kg if you have a Category B licence only, 8250kg otherwise) are the only limits that have any legal status. Any ratio of towed weight to vehicle weight (be that 85% or otherwise) does not.
- Even if your licence and car's towing limits permit, towing a CARAVAN (as opposed to a different type of trailer) heavier than your car is not good practice. I understand the rationale for this. Caravans are high-sided, awkwardly-shaped and boxes which are vulnerable in sudden changes of direction (for example, swerving to avoid an accident) or high winds. If that box is heavier than the car controlling it, something called 'the laws of physics' dictate that at some point, control will be lost.

The only question then is how much less is reasonably safe.

The fact is that any guidance given here is going to be crude, because there are so many other specific considerations including the car's suspension, the loading of both car and caravan and the length and width of the caravan being towed that will also have an effect. However, in the absence of a LOT more test data using a range of weight ratios, who's to say that keeping your towed weight to roughly 85% of your car's weight is not a suitable rule of thumb?

This ratio does need to be treated with the crudity it deserves. For a car weighing 1500kg, the difference between 85 and 90% is only 75kg. That's less than what I weigh and I'd like to bet that if you put something of my weight on the floor of a caravan before towing it (no, not actually me. I know that's not good practice either!) it wouldn't make it any less stable. I also take the point that no towing car is ever realistically going to be unloaded to its kerb weight, and that many caravans won't be towed loaded up to their MTPLM. However, since almost nobody will know the actual weight of either at any point, using kerb weight and MTPLM is the obvious 'fall back' option and one which allows for a further factor of safety.

Following this through logically, it seems to me to be possible to conclude only one thing. The industry's current recommendation to limit the caravan's MTPLM to no more than the car's kerb weight for experienced towers, and the actual towed weight to approximately 85% for new towers - irrespective of its origins - is not necessarily wrong, outdated or unfounded. It's just sensible.

 

[JTQ]

Out of interest to attempt to hang some history to things I looked up my old book by the late caravanning and CC technical guru of the time Geoffrey King in his “Caravanning Complete” of 1980. [Robert Hale Ltd]
(Later in 1981 republish by Charles Letts as “The Caravanning Handbook” ISBN 0 85097 453 4 )

He first advises that to tow up to 50 mph the then legal limit the caravan's weight must be equal to or less than the vehicles kerb weight.

Then quoting verbatim:

“Any sensible caravanners should try to keep the towed-weight down to seventy-five per cent of the kerbside weight of the car, which will assist stability and greatly improve performance”.

So if he was up with the hunt as I have little doubt he was, the CC was not on-board with an 85% ratio recommendation in 1980, but it came in sometime later.

 

[Raywood]

Out of interest to attempt to hang some history to things I looked up my old book by the late caravanning and CC technical guru of the time Geoffrey King in his “Caravanning Complete” of 1980. [Robert Hale Ltd]
(Later in 1981 republish by Charles Letts as “The Caravanning Handbook” ISBN 0 85097 453 4 )

He first advises that to tow up to 50 mph the then legal limit the caravan's weight must be equal to or less than the vehicles kerb weight.

Then quoting verbatim:

“Any sensible caravanners should try to keep the towed-weight down to seventy-five per cent of the kerbside weight of the car, which will assist stability and greatly improve performance”.

So if he was up with the hunt as I have little doubt he was, the CC was not on-board with an 85% ratio recommendation in 1980, but it came in sometime later.

I think you well find the maximum towing speed in 1980 was 50 mph, certainly it was when I started towing about then. Science has moved on a bit since then though and with modern suspension and better aerodynamics I do think that although 85% is a good starting point trying to get below that is probably a bit over the top.

 

[otherclive]

In Germany it's still 50 mph unless there are specified technical and compliance requirements that are complied with. For most foreign visitors it's not worth the hassle of going for compliance with the higher speed approval. So Germany is still conservative with speed. Not sure what the weight ratio requirements are. But I've seen Passats towing vans that in U.K. would be full size SUV territory.

 

[JTQ]

I think you well find the maximum towing speed in 1980 was 50 mph, certainly it was when I started towing about then.

That bit of it I remember well having first towed a trailer 9 years earlier. The Geoffrey King statement gave that as the then [1980] limit irrespective of weights.
I can't recall when it changed to the present 60 mph UK limit for dual carriageways?

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Certainly when I started towing in 77, 'twas 50mph. (had to have a 50 sticker on the back of the van.) but can't remember about weights -- not a lot of information about then. - 'Tinternet' was along way away, I gleaned a lot of my early information from the pages of Practical Caravan readers letters and questions and articles in the mag. - 'twas a much more 'practical' orientated magazine in those days!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello SamandRose.

Nice attempt to summarise, and I think you have caught most of it but there are a few subtitles that you have missed.

Virtually all the points raised in Alan Young article have been discussed before on this forum. However I do agree having it laid out in the way he has done so may have clarified the issues for some, and caused a few more people to start to make proper enquiries about it.

It's a moot point to suggest the issues have been looked at from the wrong angle, the fact is the majority of questions about weight ratios do centre on the 85% guidance, so answers to those questions do need to be referenced in that way. And I believe it is relevant to discuss its validity as it's the guidance that is so often given to caravanners without a second thought. It needs to be challenged to make sure it is reviewed and either amended or reconfirmed with evidence of how the conclusion was derived.

Not that it will make any difference to 99.99% of caravanners; but the pre-1997 licence allows the driver to have an outfit of combined MAM of 8250kg, but the post 1997 does restrict Cat B to 3500kg Combined MAM and even with the "E" extension the post 2013 BE is still restricted to a combined MAM of 7000kg. - of course subject to the vehicles weight limits.

Now the biggest flaw in your comment relates to the meaning of 100% ratio as defined by the towing ratio calculation, and how that will potentially affect the tow vehicle.

The common view as expressed by yourself and many others is that as the trailer mass is increased, the ratio will approach 100% and at 100% the caravan will be as "heavy" as the car and is more likely than ever to start to destabilise the outfit. The problem is that at 100% ratio the caravan is not heavier than the car, it is only as heavy as the cars kerbweight, which as we know is a highly unlikely towing scenario.

The common extrapolation to this thought is that if the ratio is below 100% the outfit will be safer, and that is a very dangerous assumption. Principally becasue there are plenty of towed caravan incidents that must arise even when the towing ratio is below 100 and even below 85%

So what is a safe towing limit? I don;t think you can actually have a guaranteed safe towing limit, As you point out there are a lot more facets of vehicle condition and driver control that will determine the safety of an outfit.

 

[Raywood]

While I agree that the weight ratio is not the only factor in roll over accidents, I have not come across one where it was 85% or less and I cannot remember any where it was anything sensible. They were infrequent in the numbers we got though so I cannot make any firm assessment on what I have seen, but the implication is there.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A stability issue does not have to result in a "roll over" it can be any misbehaviour of an outfit where the driver has less than total control. some will go on to become a RTI but not necessarily a roll over.

So the numbers are going to be more than Ray reports.

And i would bet my last dollar, that some "Roll Overs" have occurred with outfits with a ratio of less than 85%

 

[Parksy]

A stability issue does not have to result in a "roll over" it can be any misbehaviour of an outfit where the driver has less than total control. some will go on to become a RTI but not necessarily a roll over.

So the numbers are going to be more than Ray reports.

And i would bet my last dollar, that some "Roll Overs" have occurred with outfits with a ratio of less than 85%

From anecdotal evidence, a significant number of untoward towing incidents seem to be related to excessive loading, tyre blowouts, excessive speed for the conditions, inexperience, too little noseweight and plain bad driving. The fact is that there can be any number of contributory factors.
It's all very well continually challenging the 85% recommendation with lengthy pedantic comments, but all that this does on this forum, where inexperienced caravan owners are looking for clear advice, is to create even more confusion.
The bottom line is that both clubs, the leading caravan publications and major motoring organisations continue to advise those new to towing that they should aim for an 85% caravan / towing vehicle weight ratio, so until an authoritative source suggests something different it's the only advice that we can realistically offer.
There is no way of knowing what the towing ratio of caravans involved in such incidents may be so speculation is futile.

 

[welshti]

Caravan Stability Studies

 

[Craigyoung]

Hi , this was put on last week for a link regarding transportation of bikes on the back of vans , demonstrating if all the weight/ or a lot of weight goes in the back that's when it becomes unsafe loading it's a good video for newbies for what not to do .

 

[welshti]

It certainly is a helpful video for someone new to caravanning like myself. How do caravanners with a fixed bed at the rear with storage underneath and storage under the seating at the front of the caravan manage to keep the weight over the axles ? sorry for hijacking this thread but feel free to put the video where it belongs, thanks

 

[Craigyoung]

Lightish stuff at the back, towels , toiletries , clothes , we also keep the sun chairs under the btm bunk , heaviest stuff at the front and over axles , like we keep the awning over the axles and the camping folding tables at the front , you'll get the hang of it !!

 

[otherclive]

It certainly is a helpful video for someone new to caravanning like myself. How do caravanners with a fixed bed at the rear with storage underneath and storage under the seating at the front of the caravan manage to keep the weight over the axles ? sorry for hijacking this thread but feel free to put the video where it belongs, thanks

Just because the maker has provided storage you don't have to fill it up, or even use it when travelling. We put light stuff in ours at the ends of the van, and things like chairs, bbq, even spare wheel (in last van) go around the centre of the van close to the axle. I've never had problem with any of it moving around as I take care to ensure its well jammed in. Where possible heavy stuff travels in the car (awning, food crates, tool bag, jack etc) Of course when we stop for a break getting into the van is a bit of an obstacle course unlike some vans i see where they arrive at Services and the interior is already set out for a straight move into it for high tea to be served! When we arrive on site we are well practised in putting stuff where it is required for our stay on site. Even our grand kids know where to put their stuff without any help from us.

 

[xtrailman]

It certainly is a helpful video for someone new to caravanning like myself. How do caravanners with a fixed bed at the rear with storage underneath and storage under the seating at the front of the caravan manage to keep the weight over the axles ? sorry for hijacking this thread but feel free to put the video where it belongs, thanks

The most important thing to get correct is the nose weight, it needs to be within 5 to 7% of the MPTLM.
Each caravan can be different due to the layout, IMO the rear fix bed can be a problem, if you put weight under the bed or wardrobes, it could result in too light a NW.

I firmly believe that all manufacturers should publish exworks nose weight figures, this give a clear indication of the required loading necessary to achieve the 5 to 7% NW.

My last caravan had an exworks NW of 88kg, so I had to load a lot behind the axle, and not much up front, you should also try to get left to right loading balanced, which is not easy with out a Riech load cell.

With my present caravan I carry 40kg on the rear bike rack, so I have very little behind the axle but a lot in front, my front gas locker is full.

Now you might think that that gives rise to the effect shown in the video link above, but in practise no caravan is built with no weight over the axle, in fact most layouts ensure built in heavy items are over the axle.

So the video is misleading as it doesn't reflect the loading of a caravan, as no caravan has zero weight over the axle.

 

[KeefySher]

It certainly is a helpful video for someone new to caravanning like myself. How do caravanners with a fixed bed at the rear with storage underneath and storage under the seating at the front of the caravan manage to keep the weight over the axles ? sorry for hijacking this thread but feel free to put the video where it belongs, thanks

We have "The ONE bag' rule.

After 9 years of MH where we had payload and everything was taken with us, often more stuff unused than used, we changed to a fixed bed caravan as you describe.

We have the standard kit in the caravan: Leisure battery, motor mover, gas bottle, chairs, water carrier and waste (unless we are going to a full service pitch), crockery (Ikea Ofstat tempered glass, lightweight) crockery and cooking utensils, bedding.

This means we implement 'The ONE bag' rule. ONE bag, over the axle that contains clothes for however long we are away. If there is more than ONE bag's worth, it don't go in the caravan.

It took a lot of head banging on my part, tears and stamping of feet by the girls; but we only have ONE bag over the axle

The awning, Cadac, box of bits like drill, hitch lock, wheel lock, blocks etc go in the boot of the tow car.

It's my licence if we are overloaded, not the girls. As my wife won't tow, then no holidays. It really isn't rocket science.

On our first trip with the caravan, we loaded it, checked nose weight, seemed ok. Drove a few miles and wasn't happy. Put ONE bag over the axle, towed a dream. So that is the happy balance point.

 

[otherclive]

It certainly is a helpful video for someone new to caravanning like myself. How do caravanners with a fixed bed at the rear with storage underneath and storage under the seating at the front of the caravan manage to keep the weight over the axles ? sorry for hijacking this thread but feel free to put the video where it belongs, thanks[/quot

We have "The ONE bag' rule.

After 9 years of MH where we had payload and everything was taken with us, often more stuff unused than used, we changed to a fixed bed caravan as you describe.

We have the standard kit in the caravan: Leisure battery, motor mover, gas bottle, chairs, water carrier and waste (unless we are going to a full service pitch), crockery (Ikea Ofstat tempered glass, lightweight) crockery and cooking utensils, bedding.

This means we implement 'The ONE bag' rule. ONE bag, over the axle that contains clothes for however long we are away. If there is more than ONE bag's worth, it don't go in the caravan.

It took a lot of head banging on my part, tears and stamping of feet by the girls; but we only have ONE bag over the axle

The awning, Cadac, box of bits like drill, hitch lock, wheel lock, blocks etc go in the boot of the tow car.

It's my licence if we are overloaded, not the girls. As my wife won't tow, then no holidays. It really isn't rocket science.

On our first trip with the caravan, we loaded it, checked nose weight, seemed ok. Drove a few miles and wasn't happy. Put ONE bag over the axle, towed a dream. So that is the happy balance point.

Oh how I envy you! After all these years I still haven't really persuaded my wife that Coca Cola, dog food, and milk etc can quite easily be purchased elsewhere in UK or even in Europe! So before every trip I make comments such as "do we really need 4 litres of milk in the fridge?" But of course by then it's too late as the milk has been bought. So I keep my weight spreadsheet close to my chest and out goes other stuff or I cut back on clothes, so there will be washing required half way through a trip! "Love all "

 

[Mikek777]

It certainly is a helpful video for someone new to caravanning like myself. How do caravanners with a fixed bed at the rear with storage underneath and storage under the seating at the front of the caravan manage to keep the weight over the axles ? sorry for hijacking this thread but feel free to put the video where it belongs, thanks

We have "The ONE bag' rule.

After 9 years of MH where we had payload and everything was taken with us, often more stuff unused than used, we changed to a fixed bed caravan as you describe.

We have the standard kit in the caravan: Leisure battery, motor mover, gas bottle, chairs, water carrier and waste (unless we are going to a full service pitch), crockery (Ikea Ofstat tempered glass, lightweight) crockery and cooking utensils, bedding.

This means we implement 'The ONE bag' rule. ONE bag, over the axle that contains clothes for however long we are away. If there is more than ONE bag's worth, it don't go in the caravan.

It took a lot of head banging on my part, tears and stamping of feet by the girls; but we only have ONE bag over the axle

The awning, Cadac, box of bits like drill, hitch lock, wheel lock, blocks etc go in the boot of the tow car.

It's my licence if we are overloaded, not the girls. As my wife won't tow, then no holidays. It really isn't rocket science.

On our first trip with the caravan, we loaded it, checked nose weight, seemed ok. Drove a few miles and wasn't happy. Put ONE bag over the axle, towed a dream. So that is the happy balance point.

That is familiar " Drove a few miles and wasn't happy. Put ONE bag over the axle, towed a dream. So that is the happy balance point." hmy: