Trailer Control Systems
- Thread starter DeliDave
- Start date
First of all, let's put things right and not call it a rule but a recommendation.
But yes, because it is an active system rather than the typical passive frictional systems that most of us are familiar with. When it deploys it kills the sway rather than preventing it from happening in the first place. Normal frictional (or in some cases viscous) stabilisers only raise the threshold condition when instability can occur, but once this exceeded, they cannot help any more. In other words, they increase the safety margin by raising the limit, but a limit, although higher, still remains. Active stabilisers are not limited by such constraints and will always regain stability no matter what the situation.
I have one of these electronic stabilisers on my caravan and I can only say that it's uncanny. No matter how badly the caravan is loaded and no matter how hard I try to provoke instability by wild swaying motions at the steering wheel, the caravan always remains under control. The electronics do it all for me, just like ESP on modern cars.
For this reason I see real potential in being able to use lighter towcars when active trailer control systems are fitted.
But yes, because it is an active system rather than the typical passive frictional systems that most of us are familiar with. When it deploys it kills the sway rather than preventing it from happening in the first place. Normal frictional (or in some cases viscous) stabilisers only raise the threshold condition when instability can occur, but once this exceeded, they cannot help any more. In other words, they increase the safety margin by raising the limit, but a limit, although higher, still remains. Active stabilisers are not limited by such constraints and will always regain stability no matter what the situation.
I have one of these electronic stabilisers on my caravan and I can only say that it's uncanny. No matter how badly the caravan is loaded and no matter how hard I try to provoke instability by wild swaying motions at the steering wheel, the caravan always remains under control. The electronics do it all for me, just like ESP on modern cars.
For this reason I see real potential in being able to use lighter towcars when active trailer control systems are fitted.
we are waiting for our new Indiana and the ATC is one of the things I,m really looking forward to not that i want to tear around everywhere but it takes a little of the worry away
In the respect of stability it's a reasonable assumption but 'lighter' tow cars tend to have smaller engines so I would say the 85% recommendation still applies?
There is quite a good selection of smaller high performance cars and they would be ideally suited. Just take the BMW 3 Series M-Sport as an example.
Hi Lutz
As I read it the Alko system applies both van brakes at the same time just as my Reich system does.
Does your system apply pressure to individual wheels?
As I read it the Alko system applies both van brakes at the same time just as my Reich system does.
Does your system apply pressure to individual wheels?
At present, all trailer control systems use the handbrake cable or rod to apply the brakes. The difference between the Reich system and the AlKo and LEAS systems is that the Reich is not a real anti-snake stabiliser but, because it relies on the brake lights of the towcar to deploy, it only assists the overrun brake and applies the trailer brake earlier and in a controlled fashion. In other words, if instability occurs but the driver does not react and the brake lights don't come on, the Reich system does nothing. It is more of a system to reduce braking distance rather than actively intervening in the case of instability.
I have read of a hydraulic overrun brake being developed which can apply brakes on each side of the caravan independently but I can't remember who it is that's working on such a system Obviously, that would be even more sophisticated.
I have read of a hydraulic overrun brake being developed which can apply brakes on each side of the caravan independently but I can't remember who it is that's working on such a system Obviously, that would be even more sophisticated.
Hi Lutz and thank you for replying
That was my understanding of the systems
In your earlier reply you make a comparison with ESP in cars which applies pressure to the wheel that needs it
This made me wonder if your system is able to work individually or as is the case with both the Reich and as I read it the Alko does it just apply both brakes at the same time with the same force.
I understand your point about the need to apply the brake to activate the Reich but as the driver is always present its likeely that the brake would be applied although perhaps the seat of the pants reaction could be a little slower than the electronics!!!
That was my understanding of the systems
In your earlier reply you make a comparison with ESP in cars which applies pressure to the wheel that needs it
This made me wonder if your system is able to work individually or as is the case with both the Reich and as I read it the Alko does it just apply both brakes at the same time with the same force.
I understand your point about the need to apply the brake to activate the Reich but as the driver is always present its likeely that the brake would be applied although perhaps the seat of the pants reaction could be a little slower than the electronics!!!
When I mentioned that trailer control systems work like ESP, I meant ESP of the first generation which also applied the brakes axlewise and not individually although, as I said, I believe a more sophisticated system is being developed for trailers.
While experienced caravanners will apply the brakes at first signs of a instability, there are still a good number who believe that one should try to accelerate out of a snake, often with disastrous results. Also, if the caravan is light and the car comparatively heavy, the caravan may already be snaking badly before the driver senses it through the seat of his pants. After all, many claim to tow with the statement "and I don't know it's there". Maybe the tail is wagging and they still don't know it's there.
While experienced caravanners will apply the brakes at first signs of a instability, there are still a good number who believe that one should try to accelerate out of a snake, often with disastrous results. Also, if the caravan is light and the car comparatively heavy, the caravan may already be snaking badly before the driver senses it through the seat of his pants. After all, many claim to tow with the statement "and I don't know it's there". Maybe the tail is wagging and they still don't know it's there.
If a smaller towcar is used, but a car with a modern powerfull engine, and you are towing an outfit with a trailer control system fitted surely this will lead to over confidence and total reliance on the system working correctly. Also towing speed will increase because the driver will have total faith in this system keeping his caravan in a straight line. The more the system is working the more the brakes are going to wear out and then the system will less effective. I think this system is a good idea but correct loading, nose weights and the 85% rule should still be taken as a safe bet.
I would agree with Danny that 'over confidence' is going to creep in, it seems to me the same effect is already evident in solo driving 'smart' supposedly ultra safe cars?
If you except most caravanners don't read forums and their only knowledge of the system may well be from the handover and hopefully by reading the manual, then ignorance of the full picture of how to tow safely, might just lead to this system causing more harm than good.
I have had an unused Reich system, (albeit made by a sister company), for some years, complicated to set up I found no need for the effort of fitting it on our previous very stable van. More lately I was going to fit it to our latest van, (same make and model but 16yrs apart), as this displays signs of being very unstable at times.
I can say though the system does include an 'automatic override' should the van begin to sway and will apply the brakes of it's own accord. From memory though, I think it applies 'full force' which could in itself be a problem particularly in traffic.
With Alko's system coming to market then and working somewhat differently, it again seems unnecessary with preference given to simplicity. What does worry me though 'if' I'm going to rely on it more than I should?, what warning will I be given if the system fails while on the move??
Overall then I think the caravan manufactures should be concentrating on why their vans are more unstable than they once were and stop relying on third parties bailing them...or should that be us out!!
If you except most caravanners don't read forums and their only knowledge of the system may well be from the handover and hopefully by reading the manual, then ignorance of the full picture of how to tow safely, might just lead to this system causing more harm than good.
I have had an unused Reich system, (albeit made by a sister company), for some years, complicated to set up I found no need for the effort of fitting it on our previous very stable van. More lately I was going to fit it to our latest van, (same make and model but 16yrs apart), as this displays signs of being very unstable at times.
I can say though the system does include an 'automatic override' should the van begin to sway and will apply the brakes of it's own accord. From memory though, I think it applies 'full force' which could in itself be a problem particularly in traffic.
With Alko's system coming to market then and working somewhat differently, it again seems unnecessary with preference given to simplicity. What does worry me though 'if' I'm going to rely on it more than I should?, what warning will I be given if the system fails while on the move??
Overall then I think the caravan manufactures should be concentrating on why their vans are more unstable than they once were and stop relying on third parties bailing them...or should that be us out!!
You are using the same arguments that were brought forward before seat belts, airbags, ABS, etc. were introduced. Many said that this would lead to reckless driving because people would feel overconfident and rely on technology to help them out. I don't think that has materialised.
As for the brakes wearing out, the systems only apply the brakes if they sense instability, which will hopefully not be very often and therefore hardly have any effect on premature brake wear. The same applies to ESP on cars, by the way, too.
While on the subject of brakes, the LEAS system has a brake shoe temperature sensor with an acoustic warning if the brakes exceed 140
As for the brakes wearing out, the systems only apply the brakes if they sense instability, which will hopefully not be very often and therefore hardly have any effect on premature brake wear. The same applies to ESP on cars, by the way, too.
While on the subject of brakes, the LEAS system has a brake shoe temperature sensor with an acoustic warning if the brakes exceed 140
Just because you are wearing a seatbelt and are sat in front of an airbag is no excuse to drive like a lunatic. With this type of system people will rely on its ability to work and therefore will drive above safe the margin with no idea what is going on behind them, I'm not saying everyone will but a margin will. If you are driving at a speed, or incorrect loading/towcar match, which will require the system to work harder than normal then over wear of components will take place.
Surely this type of system is a belt and braces modern alternative to the old fashioned devices and therefore should be treated in the same way. It should be taken as an excuse to bend the rules and take for granted it will keep you in an straight line. It is designed to recover a snake and assist the towball stabaliser in keeping the outfit in a straight line and reduce the risk of an accident, not an excuse to put yer foot down because I've got a trailer control system or tow a Bailey Senator twin axle with a BMW 3 series M-Sport loaded to the gunnels.
Surely this type of system is a belt and braces modern alternative to the old fashioned devices and therefore should be treated in the same way. It should be taken as an excuse to bend the rules and take for granted it will keep you in an straight line. It is designed to recover a snake and assist the towball stabaliser in keeping the outfit in a straight line and reduce the risk of an accident, not an excuse to put yer foot down because I've got a trailer control system or tow a Bailey Senator twin axle with a BMW 3 series M-Sport loaded to the gunnels.
Quite agree with Lutz, when I first started caravanning some 35yrs ago stabilisers were almost unheard off, my first one being home made from an old leaf spring by a friend of a friend. Now they are common place, and very sophisticated (alko etc) when compared to there fore runners, just like ABS, seat belts, air bags etc, in years to come ATC systems will be common place, I welcome any device that helps with stability, but just remember that all the same rules still apply regarding loading, nose weight, ratio etc, just a shame that we cant have an after market device we can fit to drivers, because in most cases they are the cause of the problems in the first place.
Allan & Gill.
Allan & Gill.
Another good reason why wear on components will hardly be any more severe is the ear splitting warning buzzer that goes off every time the system deploys. Unless you disconnect the buzzer, that alone is a good enough reason not to push your luck and rely on technology too much.
Hi Gary
I remember you saying previously that you had the Reich system under the bench or somesuch place
I really like the added control it gives
When leaving a motorway for example on a downhill bending sliproad the outfit feels more stable if the car brake pedal is feathered and the caravan then brakes "stretching" the outfit and pulling the van into line.This doesn't mean leaving the motorway at a higher speed!!
Under normal braking there is no push in the back from the van and this is more apparent under heavy braking as well.
The Swaying Sensor
"The built in swaying sensor,which detects heavy swaying/snaking,operates the trailer at max power through the brake control,as soon as the brake pedal of the towing vehicle is touched
The max effect(namely stretching the entire outfit)is achieved if the towing vehicle does not brake heavily"
I didn't find it complicated to set up and have a set of instructions I could copy for you should you wish.
I remember you saying previously that you had the Reich system under the bench or somesuch place
I really like the added control it gives
When leaving a motorway for example on a downhill bending sliproad the outfit feels more stable if the car brake pedal is feathered and the caravan then brakes "stretching" the outfit and pulling the van into line.This doesn't mean leaving the motorway at a higher speed!!
Under normal braking there is no push in the back from the van and this is more apparent under heavy braking as well.
The Swaying Sensor
"The built in swaying sensor,which detects heavy swaying/snaking,operates the trailer at max power through the brake control,as soon as the brake pedal of the towing vehicle is touched
The max effect(namely stretching the entire outfit)is achieved if the towing vehicle does not brake heavily"
I didn't find it complicated to set up and have a set of instructions I could copy for you should you wish.
The Reich system suffers from an inherent disadvantage in that it can (and will under certain conditions) apply the caravan brakes harder than the normal overrun brake. This would make heavier demands on the caravan's brakes, more than what they may be designed for. This could result in premature fade, but as the Reich system does not have a brake shoe temperature sensor, one may find one's self in a situation where the caravan brakes have faded and you would not be aware of it.
Actually, caravan brakes are pretty marginal at the best of times. Coming down a long (approx. 4 mile) alpine descent some time ago (before I had the LEAS system installed), the brakes on my caravan got so hot that the plastic hubcaps actually melted. The braking performance under those conditions must have been well nigh nil and I must have been relying solely on the car engine and footbrakes without knowing it.
Actually, caravan brakes are pretty marginal at the best of times. Coming down a long (approx. 4 mile) alpine descent some time ago (before I had the LEAS system installed), the brakes on my caravan got so hot that the plastic hubcaps actually melted. The braking performance under those conditions must have been well nigh nil and I must have been relying solely on the car engine and footbrakes without knowing it.
Thanks for the offer John but I've decided to fit/have fitted the Alko system, if anyone wants my brand new Reich system though??
Hi Lutz
The situation you describe can happen but it hasn't happened to me in 7+years with the unit on 4 different caravans-luckily I have avoided the dreaded violent snake .
I agree that it has limitations and is not as up to date as later systems such as yours or the Alko
I have not had premature brake wear either and we do over 100 days a year caravaning.
Its very interesting to read about the different systems and the progress that is being made.
The situation you describe can happen but it hasn't happened to me in 7+years with the unit on 4 different caravans-luckily I have avoided the dreaded violent snake .
I agree that it has limitations and is not as up to date as later systems such as yours or the Alko
I have not had premature brake wear either and we do over 100 days a year caravaning.
Its very interesting to read about the different systems and the progress that is being made.
I always look forwards to Lutz's posts and still follow threads he is involved in.
We went from Switzerland through the Grand StBernard Tunnel three weeks ago and got between two other caravans on the descent to the Aosta Valley. Our twin axlke van had no problems with the descent but by just over half way down the van in front of us was having problems and the outfit behind kept getting closer and closer as we approached bends.
I Pulled in and let the following outfit pass and we eventually stopped at the same services as the two outfits who were travelling together. Both drivers had severly overheated brakes on the caravans and came over and asked if they could feel our vans brakes. The two German caravanners were impressed with the difference with our larger twin axles braking compared to the single axles brakes on their caravans!
That reminded me of some of Lutz posts and the remark above that he's made before.
Our present caravan has never weaveed or had any probelms mentioned here and our new BM has the latest Trailer Assist system but I've no idea if it works beacuse it seems no difference than we've ever known.
We went from Switzerland through the Grand StBernard Tunnel three weeks ago and got between two other caravans on the descent to the Aosta Valley. Our twin axlke van had no problems with the descent but by just over half way down the van in front of us was having problems and the outfit behind kept getting closer and closer as we approached bends.
I Pulled in and let the following outfit pass and we eventually stopped at the same services as the two outfits who were travelling together. Both drivers had severly overheated brakes on the caravans and came over and asked if they could feel our vans brakes. The two German caravanners were impressed with the difference with our larger twin axles braking compared to the single axles brakes on their caravans!
That reminded me of some of Lutz posts and the remark above that he's made before.
Our present caravan has never weaveed or had any probelms mentioned here and our new BM has the latest Trailer Assist system but I've no idea if it works beacuse it seems no difference than we've ever known.
Now that's an advantage of a twin axle that I had never thought of before although it's not an advantage of principle. It shows that two sets of brakes of marginal performance can add up to make quite an adequate setup but there is no reason why braking performance of single axles couldn't be improved to equal that of a good twin axle. I guess it's just cost that counts.
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