Transformer burnout.

[pensioner]

I've just been advised by my caravan workshop that my transformer has burnt out and will cost me £195 plus vat plus labour to replace.

Should the transformer on a 2 year old van do this,,I do keep it plugged into the mains whilst parked on the drive to maintain the leasure battery. I was told this would be perfectly safe to do as I was going to connect one of those Optimate chargers direct to the battery to do it.

This is the second piece of electrical equipment that's gone lately,,what's next I dread to imagine.

 

[Hutch]

Had my one burn out after two years, had to do a 140 mile round trip to get a new one, so I now carry a spare. But mine was only £115 and I changed it myself.

 

[pensioner]

Well I think I'll be looking into D.I.Y if it's going to be a regular thing.

 

[JamesH]

If your van is only two years old is it still under warranty, that's if the transformer is covered by the warranty.
I don't know how regularly transformers burn out but mine has never burnt out in my van which I have had for the past twenty five years.
Famous last words !

 

[Gafferbill]

......if you do go down the DIY route then this is a very well made piece of kit at a good price from a reputable company.

 

[Damian]

What van do you have?

 

[pensioner]

It's a Lunar Cosmos 352, bought new in September 2014, so I doubt warranty is still valid

 

[Damian]

Your van is covered by a 3 year warranty, so the item is still within warranty until 2017.

You should not have to pay for the fault, neither should your dealer even be asking you to.
They may try and say that it is not covered for wear and tear, that is not applicable to a unit as yours.
You need to check your caravan service book for specific exclusions to the 3 year warranty, the usual exclusions are windows, plastic mouldings and such like.

If the transformer is not specifically mentioned then you can demand a new one under warranty.

Even if the unit is excluded under the manufacturers warrant you still have a claim under consumer regulations as a transformer should last a lot longer than 2 years.
Do you know what make of power distribution system you have, specifically the transformer?

 

[Martin_E]

Your van is covered by a 3 year warranty, so the item is still within warranty until 2017.

You should not have to pay for the fault, neither should your dealer even be asking you to.
They may try and say that it is not covered for wear and tear, that is not applicable to a unit as yours.
You need to check your caravan service book for specific exclusions to the 3 year warranty, the usual exclusions are windows, plastic mouldings and such like.

If the transformer is not specifically mentioned then you can demand a new one under warranty.

Even if the unit is excluded under the manufacturers warrant you still have a claim under consumer regulations as a transformer should last a lot longer than 2 years.
Do you know what make of power distribution system you have, specifically the transformer?

I think the 2014 vans still have the BCA charger, as you well know it will be one of two that BCA do.

I also believe BCA only have 12 months warranty on the charger, I am fairly certain they don't stretch to three years.

The chargers are a doddle to change

 

[pensioner]

My thanks to Damian for that information, and have this morning asked the workshop to make a claim under warranty through Lunar.
Lunars warranty handbook does say it's 3 years, ( if only I'd read it first instead of assuming everything was 1 year ) so I now wait to see what they say.
I would also have saved myself a further £100 if I'd read the book as my toilet flush pump was also covered at the time of replacement,

I do tend to learn the hard way, it's the story of my life.

 

[pensioner]

A further question has come up which Damian or the Prof ( or indeed many of knowledgeable folk on here ) may be able to clarify.

I asked in the workshop if the replacement unit would then be covered for 3 years as it would be a new unit, but they say no, only until the original warranty expires ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Ok pensioner,

It's necessary to understand there are important differences between the Manufacturer's Warranty, and your statutory legal rights enshrined in the old Sale of Goods Act (SoGA) and the more recent October 2015 Consumer Rights Act (CRA).

Whilst the may seem to offer the same thing they are actually very different animals. SoGA & CRA were/are a legal requirement and you are automatically enrolled under their cover when ever you make a retail purchase, whether it's a toffee or a caravan. Nothing can usurp your rights under this legislation, BUT it only applies to your contract to purchase so it's between you and the person or business that sells it to you.

New caravans in the UK are sold by dealers, so you have no contract with the manufacture to buy a caravan only with the dealer/finance house if you use a credit scheme.

Now lets consider how that applies in this case. It seems you have opted to use the manufacturer's warranty to have this work carried out.

Manufacturers are not legally required to supply a warranty, so there is no legislation that specifically tells them what they should and shouldn't offer. It may not be obvious but when you sign up for the Manufactures warranty you are actually signing a separate contract with the manufacturer not the seller. As its a contract it does have to conform to contract law, which means it shouldn't be unfair. This is a two edged sword, it means that none of the parties involved should should be able to improve or worsen their position if the contract is used.

If your caravan had been fault free, then the power supply would not have needed to be changed, and you would have not wanted or expected your warranty cover to be extended.

But your power supply has failed, and it is being replaced under the manufacturer's warranty free of charge. This means they are restoring you to the same position as if the fault had not arisen. As you have not contributed to teh costs and purchase of teh replacement part, you have no justifiable reason therefore to expect the warranty to be extended.

However, if the work had involved extensive deconstruction and rebuild of the caravan, which could realistically involve unintentional collateral damage to other parts of the caravan, then you could have a case to argue that the work undertaken must be newly guaranteed to be to proper workmanship standards and be fit for purpose. But this again is where the CRA could come to your rescue, as suppliers have prescribed limits to the number of times a repair can be offered.

To summarise I do not think you have any rights to expect your warranty to be extended on the power supply.

 

[pensioner]

OK,,thanks Prof, well I had to ask and now see where I stand, let's now hope I can get it all done under warranty, the parting comment by the workshop was "we'll let you know if Lunar are prepared to do it"

 

[ProfJohnL]

OK,,thanks Prof, well I had to ask and now see where I stand, let's now hope I can get it all done under warranty, the parting comment by the workshop was "we'll let you know if Lunar are prepared to do it"

As I think someone has already stated, the power supply should last much longer that it has so, so if Lunar don't play ball under the warranty, then look up Sale of Goods act or if you purchased the caravan after Oct 2015, then look up theh CRA.

I think you have a claim against your seller.

 

[xtrailman]

My thanks to Damian for that information, and have this morning asked the workshop to make a claim under warranty through Lunar.
Lunars warranty handbook does say it's 3 years, ( if only I'd read it first instead of assuming everything was 1 year ) so I now wait to see what they say.
I would also have saved myself a further £100 if I'd read the book as my toilet flush pump was also covered at the time of replacement,

I do tend to learn the hard way, it's the story of my life.

I think your dealer should have sorted your issues under the warranty with out trying to charge you.
I have my caravan hooked up permanantly but only power up and charge around once a month, i don't believe in leaving any appliance powered up if there is a sensible alternative.

These unit typically burn out when enclosed with inadequate ventilation. On site when its really hot i only run ours at night when the temperature often cool down.

 

[ChrisUK]

Ensuring good ventilation is very important. Stuffing such as sleeping bags into the area near the power supply is a real no no.
On my 8 year old van I have reduced the 12v load on the power supply considerably by replacing all the bulbs with LEDs, this reduces the lighting load by about 90%

 

[Damian]

BCA units are well known for problems with the transformers burning out, due to the wholly bad design of the housing unit totally enclosing the unit and very little ventilation, especially if other items are stored near the box.

However, in your earlier post you say " I would also have saved myself a further £100 if I'd read the book as my toilet flush pump was also covered at the time of replacement,"

I wonder who replaced the pump?
If it was not frost damaged, which is excluded from warranty, and it was the dealer from whom you purchased the van, why were you charged as the dealer would know the van was within warranty????
If it was another engineer who changed it, they also would have known the van was still within warranty.

 

[Hutch]

The BCA units , are now on the third generation, the latest, being the 301-2-BC, I now have three, one in the van, a spare , and one which I have to send back for repair.

 

[pensioner]

Lots of helpful information, let me make clear how all this came about and it answers several of your observations.

I bought the van Sept; 2014 from a Lunar dealer in Preston, who just happens to operate around the corner from the Lunar factory.
However after several return visits to the dealer to get sorted several things that were wrong with the van,,ie,,power supply to radio and TV antenna reversed,,and some others, I decided to try find someone closer to save myself a 100 mile round trip each time.
I found the workshop I'm currently using which is less than 2 miles away,,BUT although it's an authorized Lunar workshop they do not sell caravans,,their main business is motorhomes and as an agent for vehicle rental,,so in their defense they do not know my purchase history. and from a comment the owner made I think they are very new as a Lunar workshop,,although my wife does agree with "xtrailman"

Damian,, the pump was replaced by the same workshop.

As for the unit overheating, it is on the same side of the van as the Truma heating so that may have a bearing but I do not keep anything else under there.

I think I'll be taking up xtrailmans idea when all this is sorted out,,keeping it plugged in but only switching it on for a topup charge periodically.

 

[Hutch]

I have used my present one for over 18 months now, the 301-2-BC and used it for over 6 weeks in France last summer at temps above 30c without problems, my Truma heater is also on the same side under the right hand front bench seat, I recon you either get a good one or a bad one.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
I think I'll be taking up xtrailmans idea when all this is sorted out,,keeping it plugged in but only switching it on for a topup charge periodically.

Hello Pensioner,

Does the instruction book to tell you to use it like that ? :huh:
I would be most surprised if the instructions limit the power supplies usage in that way. If the power supply is being affected by the heating or its ambient temperature, then clearly it is not fit for purpose, or the caravan design has failed to take that issue into account.

Either way the installation is faulty and that is contrary to your statutory rights under Sale of Goods Act. (as you purchased before the CRA came into effect) The seller is in breach of the act and is in my view liable to make repairs with a sufficiently durable power supply, or reposition the unit so it does not overheat.

I suggest you look up your rights under SoGA, and if necessary seek advice from the CAB or Trading standards.

There is a fairly common perception that when an appliance fails the dealer is blameless in all of this and is innocent bystander. They are not. They take your money, and they hold the contract with you, and it is up to them to take what ever steps are necessary to ensure the products they sell you are fit for purpose, and its part of the risk of being in business that if a product you sell fails, then you are responsible for putting it right. They cannot legally pass the buck to the manufacture without your consent. (interesting point, how many dealers actually ask if you want to use the manufactures warranty or just stick to your legal rights?)

It is a dealers responsibility to receive goods and but not pass faulty goods onto their ultimate customers. If they sell goods without checking them, then they must be prepared to accept the costs associated with putting those faults right when they arise. Critically under both SoGA and the CRA, the seller is responsible for all return and redelivery costs between the customer - it should inconvenience the customer as little as possible.

Sadly the caravan industry has a very poor quality history, and it seems that far too many caravans do leave the factories with faults, so it should be even more imperative for dealers look at the goods they receive , and catch and correct the faults. They should also be far more vigorous in reporting back to the manufactures on what they find and have to do. Ultimately a dealer has the option to reject a caravan that has faults, in much teh same way a retail customer can reject a faulty product back to a seller.

Don't forget that dealers are out to make a profit - profit's not a dirty word, but when dealers don't carry out what they are paid to do, and they fail to meet their legal obligations to customers, then they deserve to feel the effect on their profit margin.

Caravan buyers have for too long been sold shoddy products, and been given poor service by the industry as a whole. The industry must take proactive action to begin to reduce the cost of customer dissatisfaction and inconvenience and the number of post sale repairs is minimised, This needs to be addressed by
manufacturer's actively engaging with customers to look at what issues cause most grief, and to improve product quality reliability and durability.

Ask your self, " did I agree to buy an inferior product?, I'm guessing no, So why put up with a fault that is not of your making, but could have been reasonably avoided by proper design and manufacture? And more over why should you pay out (for fuel and time) to have a seller put right what should have been right in the first place.

You have the Rights as enshrined in SoGA so why not use them?

 

[xtrailman]

The BCA unit run hot as normal, the cooling fan only operates when the load current is 8 amps some 12 amps.
My last caravan was still on its original unit at 7 years old when i sold it. But that unit wasn't fitted into the PDU, but was a separate unit fitted close to a floor vent.

My present unit is slotted into the top of the PDU, i've drilled two 50mm holes into the back to reveal the PSU/chargers casing to add extra cooling, and so far its been ok for 5 years.

Its only fitted into the PDU because its easier to fit on the production line, in fact all the inputs and outputs are via plug and sockets, so its completely modular, anyone could fit it.

Caravan i'm buying has a 25amp multistage charger, in a substantial metal box fitted externally to the sargent unit, so i'm confident it should get sufficient cooling there, although i might pack it off if i think it needs it to give extra air cooling.

 

[Woodentop]

The BCA unit run hot as normal, the cooling fan only operates when the load current is 8 amps some 12 amps.
My last caravan was still on its original unit at 7 years old when i sold it. But that unit wasn't fitted into the PDU, but was a separate unit fitted close to a floor vent.

My present unit is slotted into the top of the PDU, i've drilled two 50mm holes into the back to reveal the PSU/chargers casing to add extra cooling, and so far its been ok for 5 years.

Its only fitted into the PDU because its easier to fit on the production line, in fact all the inputs and outputs are via plug and sockets, so its completely modular, anyone could fit it.

Caravan i'm buying has a 25amp multistage charger, in a substantial metal box fitted externally to the sargent unit, so i'm confident it should get sufficient cooling there, although i might pack it off if i think it needs it to give extra air cooling.

I can't quite see the point of drilling holes in the PDU case. The power supply has vents at the left end (as fiited) which align with a grille in the PDU case. There is also a grille on the top of the PDU case that corresponds to ventilation slots on the power supply case.
The fan is temperature controlled so the current drawn does not directly affect when the fan runs. The main problem is that said fan often seizes up and/or fails so the power supply overheats.

The biggest problem is where Bailey fit the PDU and the common lack of ventilation around it. The best solution is to get two very small 12V computer fans, wire them in series so that they run slower and make less noise, and fit one to the outside of the left end of the PDU case pushing air in, and the second over the top grille drawing air out.

As a point of interest, two larger but similar fans fitted inside the fridge external vents make a massive difference to the ability of the fridge to keep cold, especially in hot weather.

 

[xtrailman]

Convection cooling is by csa, so by drilling holes its increasing the csa, and at the same time increasing air flow. There is also a floor vent close by and i pull the seat base out 12mm to again increase air flow.

And the last two units i have had only run the cooling fan when the currect draw is above 8 amps or 12 amps.

Those that are temperature controled are in pain the the back side, they often cut in at night IME.

 

[ProfJohnL]

All these modifications point to a major concern, If the PSU is running hotter than it is designed to run, then has the caravan manufacturer ignored the PSU manufacturers recommendations about ventilation around the unit? If so then as I have pointed out in the main part of this thread, its a job for the seller to sort out, or for the manufacturer to issue a repair instruction.

SoGA was not so strong about this sort of thing, but the CRA gives consumers the power to get these things sorted properly.