Tyres 4x4 owners.

[Thingy]

Question really for 4x4 owners, and by that I mean proper ones, not soft roaders.

I will be changing tyres in the near future. The car still has the original tyres on that Mitsubishi fit, namely Dunlop Grandtrek AT20. I find them fairly quiet and civilized and I cant fault them for wear, however they dont feel as comfortable in the wet. Indeed something I have heard from quite a few people that have them on different vehicles.

Im not sure how much faith to put in the label ratings of tyres, i.e. B in the wt, G for fuel etc. So, looking for recomendations. BF Goodrich are looking interesting but they are expensive.

 

[Martin24]

Certainly have had the BF Goodrich before and they were fine. I've had other mid road/off road tyres that have done all we want to do, don't do heavy off roading just pull the van off muddy rally fields/cl's and the like. The current tyres that came on the D-Max are Bridgestone Dueler H/T when it was new are hopeless on wet grass and can't wait to change them when the time comes. Could take a while as we've only just turned 16k in over three years.

 

[Gagakev]

Question really for 4x4 owners, and by that I mean proper ones, not soft roaders.

I will be changing tyres in the near future. The car still has the original tyres on that Mitsubishi fit, namely Dunlop Grandtrek AT20. I find them fairly quiet and civilized and I cant fault them for wear, however they dont feel as comfortable in the wet. Indeed something I have heard from quite a few people that have them on different vehicles.

Im not sure how much faith to put in the label ratings of tyres, i.e. B in the wt, G for fuel etc. So, looking for recomendations. BF Goodrich are looking interesting but they are expensive.

Hi Thingy nice to see you back, I have two of these Avon Ranger on the rear, will be putting them on the front when it's time to change.
I was warned of road noise but went ahead and to be honest I dont have any problem with them. They have the M+S symbol for Mud and snow.

 

[Thingy]

Havent really been away, I just go fallow in the winter. Talking caravans makes me want to go, and madam wont budge at this time of year unless its a hotel.

Thanks chaps. The Avons dont seem to do a size for mine, what size are yours Kev? They look to be around £65 a corner, where as the Goodrich coming out at £190. My size is 265/65/18.

I know what you mean Martin, the Duellers are another one that have had similar reports to the Dunlop in the wet.

My other options are Cooper and General Grabber at the moment. On my last Shogun, you may recall the story of having to buy Continental Snow Tyres in Austria in 32 degrees of September sunshine. Glad that car has gone, I have never seen tyres wear so fast.

 

[Gagakev]

The Avon Ranger ATT is a Touring All Season tyre, mine are 265/65/17
And yes have looked on there site for sizes and the 18 are not listed, sorry to get your hopes up!!!

 

[Thingy]

Thats the problem, whilst not an oddball size, its one that a lot of manufacturers dont do in AT or M+S, and there are far more budget tyres than premium ones available.

I dont do a deal of offroad at all, but pulling the van of muddy sites, as with the Duellers, I found the Dunlops lacking.

 

[Parksy]

For towing I still use my LWB 1997 2.8 Pajero and although the tyres I use fall within the 4x4 budget category the Runway Enduro is for me a good all round 4x4 tyre.
On a previous SWB Paj I had BF Goodrich all round and although they might be fine for mud plugging I couldn't entirely trust them on wet ring road tarmac.
I don't do serious off-roading, but with the four wheel drive engaged I've pulled many a motorhome as well as cars hooked up to caravans off muddy fields with no hassle and the Runway Enduro's are stable and provide good grip on all surfaces in all weathers with or without the t/a caravan on the towball, with good wear and no undue noise.

 

[Thingy]

Interesting what you say about the BFGs. According to the label the Wet Grip rating is much higher than the Dunlops that I dont like. This revisits my comment about how much faith can you put in those labels?

 

[woodsieboy]

Our Shogun came with Yokahamas and at first change replaced with same most recent change was offered Cooper Discoverer AT cost 75.00 each fitted and so far very pleased,good handling low noise and seem to be deep tread, our size is 265 70 16 so not sure whether they are available in your size,.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The labelling of tyres was a step forward in so far it provides a system of comparison. What I don't know is who carries out the testing, and if all tests are truly comparable, but like the Caravan Industries 85% guidance it's better than nothing, but far from perfect.

I am certain that the way a tyre performs is significantly affected by the vehicle they are fitted too and the driver. If you want evidence of this just look at Formula 1 where for the last few years it's been a one make tyre for all teams.

Now admittedly F1 is working as close to the limits as you can get, but it must be the case that the vehicle will affect the way a tyre performs, so whilst a tyre may get a ringing endorsement in one test, it may not fare so well in another where different vehicles are used.

However it's likely that a tyre that stops well in the wet will do so for all the vehicles it's used on, And tread patterns that perform well in mud will do for all vehicles.

Where the differences may start to show, is in rates of ware which can be vehicle and temperature specific, grip in high speed maneuvers. Noise which whilst will be tyre dependant, is also car dependant on how much noise is transmitted back through the suspension and running gear. Tyre size and profile will also affect handling and performance.

You must not also forget that as the tead on a tyre is worn away, it will reduce its ability to shift water so grip and stopping distances will deteriorate over time.

So this brings us back the the labels, Providing the testing has been consistent, then they are probably better than relying on recommendations from other drivers where the vehicle is different.

 

[Thingy]

I think 4x4s do cuase some of their own problems with wet grip. The larger heavier ones to tend to lean outwards whilst cornering and surely this dramatic transfer of weight must seriously affect the traction for the opposite side.

However, when you here so many Shogun owners slating the dunlops for wet grip and be happier with those with a lower rating, you have to wonder, as in your point, who does the testing and of course how consistent it is. What I did find via Google is the following, and the first sentence says it all.

EU Tyre Label: How the tyres are tested

Since June 2012, tyre manufacturers have been required to provide data in relation to the performance of their tyres through testing.

Due to the sheer vast number of tyre models, it was decided that a centralised EU tyre testing facility would be unmanageable and unproductive. Therefore, tyre label testing is self-certified using specific EU standardised methods that every test must adhere to.
Testing Rolling Resistance

A tyre is mounted to a specially designed two-metre drum. It is then rotated with a defined load and pressure.

The test engineers have the torque required to rotate the drum before the tyre is fitted, so they are able to calculate the torque of the tyre by subtracting the new level required when the tyre is mounted against the level when it is not.

It is through calculating the difference of the drum's torque with or without the tyre that they can record what is known as the 'Rolling Resistance Coefficient'. This is what is used to work out the correct grading for the new tyre label.
Testing Wet Grip

There are two tests that engineers are required to carry out to come up with the wet grip rating.

First of all they need to carry out a wet braking test. This measures the performance of a tyre when a vehicle is braking on a wet surface. The distance that the car travels when slowing from 50mph to 12mph is recorded.

They also carry out what is known as a skid trailer test. This calculates the friction between the tyre and the road surface. For the tests to be valid, it must take place when the vehicle is travelling at 40mph.

Once they have both results, they combine them to create the Wet Grip Index (WGI) - this shows the percentage of improved ability compared with an independent reference tyre.
Testing Noise Emission

This test is done to find out the external noise of a tyre in decibels (dB).

The actual test consists of a microphone being set up on the edge of a track to measure the sound level of a test vehicle - the mircophone is required to be 7.5m from the centre of the track at sit at 1.2m above the ground. When passing, the vehicle must be travelling at 50 mph with the engine turned off for the test to be valid.

 

[Parksy]

Interesting what you say about the BFGs. According to the label the Wet Grip rating is much higher than the Dunlops that I dont like. This revisits my comment about how much faith can you put in those labels?

There seems to be one type of road surface that at least to me seems to be a little bit slippier in wet weather than some others, a typical case in point was the red tarmac used around Birmingham city centre, but some ring roads are made of a similar composition. The BFG's had plenty of tread when I replaced them, they had been on the Paj for so long that cracks had begun to appear in between the tread pattern so they had to go. The BFG's must have been made of a harder compound that offered less road adhesion under certain conditions, and the Runway tyres were recommended by the tyre fitters for my mainly road use. They are worthy replacements, mine have been on for five years now and they will only have to be replaced (if I don't swap the Pajero) because of cracking, not because of tread wear.

 

[Dustydog]

I used BFGs All Terrains for 7 years on my last Sorento with no issues at all.
Unlike Parksy's I never found them wanting in the wet . Maybe different suspension etc. When new there was a distinctive road noise rumble but my ears soon became used to it. Never let me down in the mud and did 40k a tyre.
I run my current Sorento on Good years which are quiet but not brilliant in the mud.

 

[otherclive]

Ive had Yokohama AT and Dunlop Grandtrek respectively on a Sorento and a Disco 2 and found them okay. When I bought Pajero SWB specifically for off roading I fitted Falken Wildpeaks which have avery good reputation with the US Jeep Wrangler community. They are nor so extreme as some IATs and performed okay on roads and not too bad off road. After 12 months the old Pajero failed its MoT due to one of the three way electrically adjustable shock absorber having failed. So I decided to not a Pedders suspension kit of new rear springs and new foam cell shock absorbers all around. The kit was designed to lift the car some 40mm, but in fact she came up nearer 50mm on account of the old springs having sagged. The transformation was quite remarkable even though the car was higher off of the road the handling and ride on road was totally transformed, and its off road performance was much improved too. So as stated in an earlier post the actual suspension set up and condition can have as much of an effect on road behaviour as the tyres.

I haven't found the M&S rating to be worth much as you can just look at some tyres and see that their mud performance isn't worth jot. My current Yokohama G91Fs scrabble in the mud, and if it wasn't for the X-mode all terrain electronics she'd be no better than a car with normal road tyres. My son has installed Nokian Weatherproof All Seasons on his Freelander 2 and reckons they are better on grass and muddy tracks that his previous ATs and the car still goes where he wants it too around his home in Wales. So come spring I will be fitting them on my car too.

 

[Hutch]

Anseo, John as requested, here is the thread you were after.
Anything for a fello Woossie.
Hutch.

 

[Hutch]

My son has installed Nokian Weatherproof All Seasons on his Freelander 2 and reckons they are better on grass and muddy tracks that his previous ATs and the car still goes where he wants it too around his home in Wales. So come spring I will be fitting them on my car too.

AC, the Cross climate+ comes out a better all season tyre in the 2017 test but the Nokian Weatherproofs won it in 2016 and I like the better tread patteren and the extra snipes for gripping snow which the Nokian WP, does.and they are slightly cheaper.

 

[otherclive]

My son has installed Nokian Weatherproof All Seasons on his Freelander 2 and reckons they are better on grass and muddy tracks that his previous ATs and the car still goes where he wants it too around his home in Wales. So come spring I will be fitting them on my car too.

AC, the Cross climate+ comes out a better all season tyre in the 2017 test but the Nokian Weatherproofs won it in 2016 and I like the better tread patteren and the extra snipes for gripping snow which the Nokian WP, does.and they are slightly cheaper.

When I wrote my above post I had Subaru Forester on Yokohama G91F tyres which were just M&S rated but didn't have any winter rating. They were not very brilliant in muddy conditions although since I didn't have a caravan for three years I didn't see many wet grassy fields! Since then I have bought another caravan and changed the car too. The Superb 4x4 is now fitted with Cross Climate + tyres which suit its characteristics as a road orientated car where most of its use is. I can't really compare the mud performance of the Cross Climates with Nokians although when the car could not tow the van off a muddy wet Cumbrian pitch it did at least get itself off, although since at that time it had Bridgestone summers on the front and Cross Climate+ at the back it was the rear drive that did the work. Since then i has Cross Climates all around. They do seem to be consistently highly placed in comparative tests and being a summer tyre with winter characteristics they meet my needs better than a winter tyres with summer characteristics as the vast majority of the year our temperatures are above 7 deg C and since we started to use all seasons ( five years ago) we have had precious little snow. I note that on the Continental web site they advise that their new all season tyre is suited for urban driving and lighter vehicles (not defined), which aligns with test results which show the tyres to have every good performance across the spectrum, but very rapid wear.

 

[outdoors]

IT's all really down to what you want from the tyre
My new at the time XC90 did 21,000 miles on Continentals ( @ £215-00 per corner !! )
My Sorento did 22,000 on Bf Goodrich.
My previous Hilux did 40+000 on stock Bridgestone duelers.
My present Hilux is coming up to 50,000 on the Bridgestones.
We have guys in the club that change them from new for big nobly things, they suit me and for anyone with even worn tyres to get stuck on a caravan site with a decent 4x4 shouldn't really be driving it.
Must admit the back end when empty can drift in the wet but one drives to the conditions allowed.

 

[otherclive]

IT's all really down to what you want from the tyre
My new at the time XC90 did 21,000 miles on Continentals ( @ £215-00 per corner !! )
My Sorento did 22,000 on Bf Goodrich.
My previous Hilux did 40+000 on stock Bridgestone duelers.
My present Hilux is coming up to 50,000 on the Bridgestones.
We have guys in the club that change them from new for big nobly things, they suit me and for anyone with even worn tyres to get stuck on a caravan site with a decent 4x4 shouldn't really be driving it.
Must admit the back end when empty can drift in the wet but one drives to the conditions allowed.

It depends on what you would define as a "caravan site". To extract yourself you need traction and clearance and with worn tyres your traction effect reduces. Ive been unable to pull a caravan off a CL which had a slope rearwards and to the right, so the nearside front wheel was offloaded and the extra load transfers to the nearside rear didn't compensate. It wasn't mud it was wet mown grass on top of a soft/muddy area which couldn't be avoided if you wanted to go through the exit gate. Even engaging 4w low and locking the the drive it failed to get the caravan off, but the car had zero problems solo. That was in a Sorento fitted with Yokohama AT with good tread depth and Limited Slip Differential. Perhaps by your definition that isn't a "decent 4x4".

 

[DrZhivago]

Last ones I bought were General Grabber AT, which I did after finding the price of BFGs had gone through the roof, and reading a review that said that the Grabbers were almost as good at 2/3 the price. I had no complaints and have used them pulling tree roots out of my lawn.

 

[outdoors]

IT's all really down to what you want from the tyre
My new at the time XC90 did 21,000 miles on Continentals ( @ £215-00 per corner !! )
My Sorento did 22,000 on Bf Goodrich.
My previous Hilux did 40+000 on stock Bridgestone duelers.
My present Hilux is coming up to 50,000 on the Bridgestones.
We have guys in the club that change them from new for big nobly things, they suit me and for anyone with even worn tyres to get stuck on a caravan site with a decent 4x4 shouldn't really be driving it.
Must admit the back end when empty can drift in the wet but one drives to the conditions allowed.

It depends on what you would define as a "caravan site". To extract yourself you need traction and clearance and with worn tyres your traction effect reduces. Ive been unable to pull a caravan off a CL which had a slope rearwards and to the right, so the nearside front wheel was offloaded and the extra load transfers to the nearside rear didn't compensate. It wasn't mud it was wet mown grass on top of a soft/muddy area which couldn't be avoided if you wanted to go through the exit gate. Even engaging 4w low and locking the the drive it failed to get the caravan off, but the car had zero problems solo. That was in a Sorento fitted with Yokohama AT with good tread depth and Limited Slip Differential. Perhaps by your definition that isn't a "decent 4x4".

Not at all Clive the new at the time '55 XT I had was pound for pound one of the best towcar's I've been fortunate to own, so good I kept it for 3yrs.My comment was actually tongue in cheek, as I'm sure you would agree there are some out there that have no Idea.

 

[otherclive]

Can't help but agree that the first generation Sorento was an ace car. Our was 04 and we sold it in 2010 with 70000 miles on the clock without it ever giving one iota of a problem. Even now my wife still bankers after one for her personal transport.

 

[emmerson]

My Range Rover classic LSE is coming due for a set of tyres, so I dug out the invoice for the last set. Very pleasantly surprised to find that they are coming up to five years old and have done 46,000 miles. They are Matador budgets, and cost £77.50 each.
My neighbour has a 4x4, not sure what make, Rexton I think, and will only fit high-end priced tyres. He has changed his twice in that time, and paid twice the price that I did.
Guess which tyres I'm putting on my car next month?

 

[RayS]

I've just re-shod my Freelander 2 at 28000 miles as the Mot warned that the fronts were close to the limit and I may be in snowy stuff early January in northern Spain. I opted for 3 Goodyear Wranglers as the full size alloy spar had a brand new one on it from new, so put least worn rear as spare. Disappointed not to get more miles as a Merc ML some years ago got to 50,000 on continentals..

 

[Dodger524]

My Range Rover classic LSE is coming due for a set of tyres, so I dug out the invoice for the last set. Very pleasantly surprised to find that they are coming up to five years old and have done 46,000 miles. They are Matador budgets, and cost £77.50 each.
My neighbour has a 4x4, not sure what make, Rexton I think, and will only fit high-end priced tyres. He has changed his twice in that time, and paid twice the price that I did.
Guess which tyres I'm putting on my car next month?

Low wear tyres are usually also low grip tyres.