Upgrades

[Dwarfer]

Hi everyone, just got our Elddis tornado xl a couple of weeks ago and not even slept in it yet (will be away next week as we already on holiday which we booked before getting the van) and already thinking of doing some upgrades.

I have a webasto thermotop diesel heater which I was going to fit in my land rover but never got round to so was thinking I could install it in the van for hot water and heating. It would be fitted under the van near the axle and run a couple of blown air heaters under the bunks to heat the van ( just a couple of car heater matrix's with lower power fans fitted ) and heat the water through a plate heat exchanger salvaged from an old combi boiler with a tmv to limit the water temperature. Do you think 5kw will be enough to give a decent water flow for a shower (about 2.3 l/min by my calculations) or do I need a hot water storage tank?

I am also looking at an inboard fresh water tank and a decent pump to increce our water capacity as we are going to do a bit of wild camping and to increce the pressure so that the tmv works properly. Have to think a bit about where to site it as I don't want to loose to much storage space but also have to think about the balance of the van.

Next is an extra cassette for the toilet and a way of storing it under the van so we can prolong out wild camping between visits to a site.

I have ordered a battery box which I'm going to stick an extra battery in, it's going to be a car battery for now as I have one sitting around and il replace it with a leisure battery when it dies.

And to charge the batteries I was thinking of a flexible solar panel but I would need a decent way to mount it on the roof.

And last of all an Arial for the tv.

All comments and suggestions welcome

Cheers
Ian

 

[crazyguider]

OH 'upgraded' our van, too. Out went the battery for a power supply, out went the side bunks, dinette and table for a proper work surface. All lights are now led. Shower and tray removed as we didn't need it and the tray had cracked. Memory foam added to the other fixed bunks. It works for us and we love it.

 

[Raywood]

The loading allowance on your caravan might be quite tight so I would check the weights of anything you put in it. It is illegal to exceed the MTPLM. If you have not got this Google the make model and year and you will find it.
Not sure of the point of the diesel heater if you already have gas which will be cheaper and it might cause problems with the insurance as I do not know if the insurer would go along with it. Not sure they would want a diesel heater retro fitted.
An inboard water tank would certainly be a weight problem if you intend to tow with it full. My feeling is that an extra water container in the Land Rover would be a safer option.
An extra cassette for the toilet should not be a problem but make very sure you order the right one as there are several.
An extra battery will also be heavy so again watch the weight. Not sure where you are going to put it but too far forward could affect the nose weight.
Not sure of the age of the caravan so do not know if the roof can take a solar panel. If you want one of those then I would see if Eldiss can advise you on that. There are free standing ones available but I do not have experience of them so cannot comment on how good they are.
Eldiss may be able to increase the MTPLM if you ask but not sure how they deal with second owners. I assume with a Land Rover weight of the caravan is not an issue but check your licence to see what categories you have.
Not sure where you intend to go wild camping but there are very few places where it is legal although it may be possible with the land owners permission.
Replacing interior lights with LEDs may be a good idea as they use less power if you are relying on batteries.
Hope this helps but no doubt others may have other suggestions.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ian,

Raywood has already mentioned your Licence, because you are using a Land Rover (and most landrovers will have a very high MAM, it's highly likely you will need to have Cat Be or B+E on your entitlements to tow any caravan.

You don't tells us the year of your Tornado or any other details about it, equally you don't tells which model of Land rover you have, but I gather it's a smaller caravan, so it certainly won't trouble the Land rover in terms of weight.

The Webasto name is well respected in driver cabs, and I can see no legal or insurance reason to prevent you from fitting it. Whether it's a good idea is perhaps another matter. Diesel is a relatively safe fuel, which is why I can't see insurance companies complaining, But whilst it's relatively safe, it's very smelly if it's spilt, and as caravans tend to have a a high wood content, any spillage or drips will tend to impregnate any wood it touches and be very difficult to remove all traces and smell.

Webastos, Eberspacher's Mikuni's and other HGV heaters are principally designed for and used lorry cabs where there is a healthy large battery capable of running the heater. They tend to use much more electrical power than traditional caravan heaters and it will put a considerable strain on a caravan's battery supply. Don't forget that most lorries spend hours each day recharging batteries whilst they are being driven so battery capacity is not usually a problem.

Is 5Kw enough for an instantaneous heated shower? Bearing in mind that a plate heater such as you describe is going to have a low order of heat transfer efficiency, I strongly suspect you would find it insufficient for an instantaneous shower. You would also have to provide a tank for the fuel which is even more weight.

You have already covered the main issues with an internal water tank the space it uses and how it may affect the caravan's balance. Locate it anywhere but precisely over the axle, and it will change the balance depending on how much water is left in the tank. Don't forget you will also have to manage the waste water.

You will need to check the sizes of the toilet cassette to see if it will indeed be stowable under the caravan without impinging front or rear attack angles, and the same comment as above about its location and its effect on the caravans balance full and empty.

Again trying to fit an extra battery needs careful consideration of position for the balance in the caravan.

Why a flexible solar panel? if it's fixed to the roof it's not going anywhere. I do suspect a roof would be capable of carrying a solar panel. From previous threads we have established that most caravanners would need to use a 50W (or there abouts) panel to keep a battery charge well extended. But my suspicion is if you are using a diesel heater then you may need 100W panel or more.

Like Ray I have concerns about all the additional weight you are adding to the caravan, which could easily exceed the Payload capacity of the caravan giving you an all up weight above the caravan's MTPLM.

Consider some alternative strategies, such as just go for the solar panel or the additional battery but not both. Or arrange to keep the battery in the Land Rover with a split charge system where it can be charged, and have an external 12V connector and feed wire to the caravan.

 

[Dwarfer]

Thanks for the advice guys.

The caravan is a 1994 I think so not really worried about insurance. It is covered by my car insurance when connected to the car.

The car is a mk2 Discovery TD5 ES with 7.seats and rear air suspension.

The max weight of the van is 1000kg and unladen it weighs something like 795kg so I have 200kg ish to play with but I assume that is with an empty toilet and waste tank.

Most of the water tanks I have seen are 70l which is a big chunk of my 200kg so I would prefer something about 40 or 50 at the most, I will probably take your advice and just take an extra 25l in the back of the land rover till I work out how much water we actually need.

The battery will be about another 20kg I suspect, I have ordered a battery box for it and will vent it outside.
The diesel heater will give me 5kw of heat or hot water continually, can be put on a thermostat and timer and is safe enough to leave on without any worry which I am never sure of with gas heaters. It can also be run on kerosene which should be cheaper than gas and can also be topped up with diesel if required.

I think the disco can take 250kg on the tow bar which if I get anywhere near I have done something very wrong, I'd still like the van to be towable by any car and an easy tow. I can also tow the full 3.5t on my license not that I'd want to.

I have ordered led lamps for all the lights and am going to convert the florescent fittings with led strips.

The solar panel I was looking at is a flexible 100w panel off eBay, it won't way much but I'm more worried about fixing it to the roof without causing any leaks or the wind getting under it and ripping it off, some kind of rubber profile around all four sides would be nice.

As for the wild camping, we are in Scotland and there are loads of places to park up overnight that aren't actually caravan sites where we will be a bit more remote but maybe not totally wild as you are thinking. There is a good map if you Google wild camping moonfroot.

I have just found a site selling a webasto kit with everything I have described for caravans, campers and anything else so it ist work to a certain extent.

Cheers guys. I'll keep thinking

 

[Raywood]

Cannot find details of a 1994 model but for 1993 and 1995 you are right the loading allowance is 200 kg or just over. You do need to take account of anything fitted since new though and an extra battery and a fitted water tank would certainly make a big hole in this figure.

 

[Robtel]

The Disco might have a 250kg limit on its towbar but the caravan chassis is more likely to have a 100kg nose weight limit. Just something to bear in mind.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...The diesel heater will give me 5kw of heat or hot water continually, can be put on a thermostat and timer and is safe enough to leave on without any worry which I am never sure of with gas heaters. It can also be run on kerosene which should be cheaper than gas and can also be topped up with diesel if required...

Just to correct the misconception you have about gas heaters. We often see people stating that they don't think its safe to leave a gas heater on over night. Well if its not safe to use at night its not safe to use at any time! The fact is provided the heater is a proper caravan gas heater which must be room sealed and has been installed and maintained correctly, its as safe to use at night as in the day.

The points about installation and maintenance apply equally to any form of heater including diesel heaters. In fact diesel heater actually deteriorate more rapidly than gas heaters and do need more regular intervention servicing.

 

[Dwarfer]

Hi everyone, im just back from my first couple of nights away in the van so I have a bit better idea of all the practicalities.

We left from home in Dunfermline around mid day on Wednesday and headed up the M90 and on to the A9 towards inverness taking our time and stopped at Pitlochry for a late lunch on the way, we cut inverness and headed down the side of loch Ness hopeing to find a nice spot to park up for the night but the couple of places I had planned on staying at now had signs saying "No overnight parking or camping" so although I know this doesn't stop you staying legally its not in the spirit of the low impact wild camping ethos so we moved on and headed down towards Fort William and onto the A82 and found a car park and picnic area about a mile east of the Glencoe visitor cente to set up for the night. There was one other caravan there, five camper vans and a couple of vans but enough room for at leasr twice that.
We stayed the night feeling quite safe then spent a couple of hours walking the hill paths the next morning before packing up and heading off towards Loch Earn for the next overnight stay. I know Loch Earn well and headed straight for the largest of the parking areas which are little loops of road which branch of the main road on the north of the loch and run very close to the loch shore.
Again we couldn't have hoped for a better place to stay with the other campers spaced out along the road giving enough privacy and views across the loch to wake up to. We headed home the next morning after breakfast and a play on the roap swing on the beach right across from our parking spot.

The hot water supply on gas was adequate for the three of us to have a quick shower each without having to wait around on it heating up again so I am happy that I dont need the diesel heater for hot water. We took a full 40l water tank in the back of the land rover and a 25l cubby in the front locker which we ran out of just before we left. I think we can do a lot better with out water usage so hopefully we can get on 25l a day/night at most once we get used to things but water is definitely going to be the limiting factoron how long we can go between stays at serviced sites.

power wise I stuck an extra car batery in a battery box and ran the TV, hair dryer and straightners from it through an inverter. I didn't have time to link the two batteries together for charging before we left but it lasted fine although it must be less than half charge now as we did watch a bit of tv due to the weather. I will connect the two batteries together when I get the chance but I would still like a sloar panel to help top the batteries up if we are not spending long on the road to recharge.

so my conclusions are, no point in an inboard water tank and with a bit of disiplin we we should be fine bringing a 25l cubby of water for each day we plan to stay unserviced.
the toilet should last us four or five days if we have to which is more thanwe plan to stay away and more than the water im happy carying will last.
two leasure batteries should be plenty of power if doing a few hours drive to recharge or a solar panel fir topping up.
a heater which can be controlled by a thermostat would be handy as when we had it on a bit on the cold mornings it went from too cold to too hot very quickly.
going wild is doable and quite enjoyable but needs a bit of planning, or lots of poi's programmed into your sat nav.

cheers guys

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dwafer,

I am pleased that you have had a shake down run, and gained so much useful information. As you have rightly pointed out water usage is skill which needs to be learnt. It throws into sharp relief how much we take mains water for granted at home.

as for linking two batteries together to increase power capacity, this must be done properly. Although there is little danger of electric shock from 12V, the current available from a couple of 110AH batteries is quite capable of frying a poor connection and starting a fire. When paralleling batteries it is quite important that both batteries must be of the same type, and in the same condition, preferably the same make and model, otherwise some very strong currents can flow between the batteries.

As for the heater, the model fitted will almost certainly be a Carver 3600 or carver's version of the Trumatic SL or SLP 3002. All these heaters were thermostatically controlled and will modulate the flame in relation to the internal temperature of the caravan.

I suggest you read the instruction manual for your particular heater. If you don't have a copy you may find what you need here

http://arcsystems.biz/
Hope This helps

 

[Mel]

Hi dwarfer. You and yours may already do this but the showering technique of water on briefly to wet: water off to soap and shampoo: water back on to rinse, can dramatically cut into water consumption. Those Eco camel type shower heads are also good. Baby wipes cut on hand washing.
Sounds like you had a good time.
Mel

 

[Dwarfer]

Hello Dwafer,

I am pleased that you have had a shake down run, and gained so much useful information. As you have rightly pointed out water usage is skill which needs to be learnt. It throws into sharp relief how much we take mains water for granted at home.

as for linking two batteries together to increase power capacity, this must be done properly. Although there is little danger of electric shock from 12V, the current available from a couple of 110AH batteries is quite capable of frying a poor connection and starting a fire. When paralleling batteries it is quite important that both batteries must be of the same type, and in the same condition, preferably the same make and model, otherwise some very strong currents can flow between the batteries.

As for the heater, the model fitted will almost certainly be a Carver 3600 or carver's version of the Trumatic SL or SLP 3002. All these heaters were thermostatically controlled and will modulate the flame in relation to the internal temperature of the caravan.

I suggest you read the instruction manual for your particular heater. If you don't have a copy you may find what you need here

http://arcsystems.biz/
Hope This helps

Thanks prof. Unfortunately I only have a basic gas heater (CARVER TRUMATIC 1800) with a manual ignition but I believe the next model up is automatic and can be thermastaticly controlled so I might see if one comes up on eBay. I will have it checked by a gas safe engineer.

I have seen written several times that when connecting leisure batteries in parallel they must be perfectly matched even down to the batch number but from my experience as an electrical and electronic engineer having worked on battery systems including fork lift trucks, ups systems and even submarines I do not agree.
If this is the case the batteries must remain matched throuout there lives and presumably this would result in them also failing at about the same time if not replaced routinely

So why do batteries in parallel need to be matched at all?

If the reason for connecting batteries in parallel is that a single battery cannot supply the current your load demands then there is a case for batteries being matched so that each battery supplies its fair share but this is rarely the case.
The majority of people wishing to parallel batteries will want to increase the time there batteries can run all there loads.

The controlling factors are not the batteries they are the charger and the load. The charger limits the current which is supplied to the batteries and as long as the charger cannot supply more current than the smallest of your batteries can take and will stop charging at the right voltage for the type of battery there is no issues there. As for the load as long the smallest of your batteries can safely supply the current required for your maximum load and all of your connecting cables are rated to at learlst this current then again no issues.

Different batteries will have different states of charger at any specific voltage but as long as there voltages are fairly close when they are connected it will not matter in the slightest if one is at 93% and one is at 97% when the charger shuts off, they will be in exactly the same state as they each would be if only one battery was installed.

As the batteries are connected in parallel there voltages will be the same at all times, when you draw current it will be drawn from both batteries proportional to there capacity or there about (actually inversly proportional to there internal resistance which is relative to capacity amongst other things). Different batteries have different charge and discharge characteristics and will be at different states of charge at a particular voltage the difference will be greatest in the middle or batteries charge/discharge curve but will be very small when the batteries are nearly fully charged or discharged so if you use most of your battery capacity one battery will charge or discharge slightly slower than the other then catch up at the end. If you only ever use 50% of your battery capacity you will use one battery more than the other and it will age quicker but what you loose in one you gain in the other. And both of your batteries will still be under less stress and age less than either one would be on its own and will age less than not connecting the batteries together at all and just switching between them when one becomes discharged.

I prefer only having to fork out for one battery at a time and knowing that one of your batteries is always fairly new also gives a bit of reassurance so I will be buying the cheapest quality battery of suitable size and to add to my existing leisure battery and will just be replacing one battery at a time if one goes faulty or looses capacity.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...
I have seen written several times that when connecting leisure batteries in parallel they must be perfectly matched even down to the batch number but from my experience as an electrical and electronic engineer having worked on battery systems including fork lift trucks, ups systems and even submarines I do not agree.

Hello Dwarfer.

My references to having matched batteries relates principally to the first time they are connected. when any significant difference in charge can result in heavy currents between the batteries as the voltages equalize.

But in terms of battery life if you have one battery that is beginning to fail, ( a collapsed cell for example) you can also end up with some raised currents, from the better battery, and potentially overheating of a battery. Consequently the majority industry advice is always to try to have matched pairs.

 

[Dwarfer]

Hi dwarfer. You and yours may already do this but the showering technique of water on briefly to wet: water off to soap and shampoo: water back on to rinse, can dramatically cut into water consumption. Those Eco camel type shower heads are also good. Baby wipes cut on hand washing.
Sounds like you had a good time.
Mel

Hi Mel, that's what we were trying to do but it took a bit of fiddling to get the water temperature set which wasted water, then shutting it off we were back to square one having to adjust again. I saw the shower heads with a trigger on eBay and in some of the caravan shops which for £15 looks like a worthwhile purchase.
Ideally I would like a thermostatic shower but the only ones I have seen are for static caravans and would need a fait bit of work to install and would probably need a better water pump to get the required pressure.
Another option would be to fit a TMV in the supply to the shower present to a decent showering temperature then we could just use the hot tap alone.
I'll ha e a look for a small TMV and give it a go.

Cheers

 

[Dwarfer]

...
I have seen written several times that when connecting leisure batteries in parallel they must be perfectly matched even down to the batch number but from my experience as an electrical and electronic engineer having worked on battery systems including fork lift trucks, ups systems and even submarines I do not agree.

Hello Dwarfer.

My references to having matched batteries relates principally to the first time they are connected. when any significant difference in charge can result in heavy currents between the batteries as the voltages equalize.

But in terms of battery life if you have one battery that is beginning to fail, ( a collapsed cell for example) you can also end up with some raised currents, from the better battery, and potentially overheating of a battery. Consequently the majority industry advice is always to try to have matched pairs.

of course you are correct in the batteries needing to be of equal voltage when they are first connected together. I had actualy just came across an article a few days ago stating that batteries connected in parallel must be matched so I searched for it when you posted. I found quite a few arcticals stating this and most of them appear to be almost copied and pasted to the point some had the same mistakes. One in particular suposidly penned by a respected caravaning journalist on a caravan website referred to starting current so I suspect had been copied from a campervan article. Amasing how information whether rite or wrong gets around.
Modern lead acid batteries and especially deep cycle batteries rairly fail to a short circuit and when they do its not a dead short its more just a very high self discharge. The battery would have lost capaciy and hopefully have been noticed and replaced long before it did much harm to the other good battery but I suppose connecting any batteries in parallel will make spotting any faults a lot harder.