Upgrading from a Single Electric Socket to Double/Treble Electric Sockets

[ShoonyUK]

Hi,

We currently have a Bailey Senator 6 Wyoming (2008/2009), which has a number of single sockets installed. I'm looking into upgrading some of the single sockets to two or three socket versions (with a mixture of electric sockets and USB sockets).

Please could anyone advise what items I would need to buy in order to complete this task?

Also ,please could you confirm or advise whether the electric supply to the currently installed single socket can simply be split by running extra wires from the single socket to the other socket(s) (like a daisy-chain) or would I need to buy something specific that would split the electric supply to the other socket(s)?

Thank you in advance, Shaun.

 

[Jcloughie]

You can split the sockets and have more on one circuit. The governing factor is the maximum load that can be applied to all sockets, but this is protected by a circuit breaker.

Therefore. For one circuit:

Say 3 sockets, maximum load 13 amps.

Or

For 10 sockets maximum load, exactly the same, 13 amps.

The maximum load may well be limited further by what you are allowed at the post, in some cases as low as 4 amp.

But if you are not familiar with these fundamental rules, should you be considering working on them?

John

PS, I think there is a limit to the number of sockets fitted to a spur of a ring. But I cannot remember what that is.

 

[Dustydog]

You can split the sockets and have more on one circuit. The governing factor is the maximum load that can be applied to all sockets, but this is protected by a circuit breaker.

Therefore. For one circuit:

Say 3 sockets, maximum load 13 amps.

Or

For 10 sockets maximum load, exactly the same, 13 amps.

The maximum load may well be limited further by what you are allowed at the post, in some cases as low as 4 amp.

But if you are not familiar with these fundamental rules, should you be considering working on them?

John

PS, I think there is a limit to the number of sockets fitted to a spur of a ring. But I cannot remember what that is.

John
All the caravans I have had do not use a ring main system . They are all direct spurs. In such a small application a ring main would be a waste and probably erode the payload.

 

[ShoonyUK]

You can split the sockets and have more on one circuit. The governing factor is the maximum load that can be applied to all sockets, but this is protected by a circuit breaker.

Therefore. For one circuit:

Say 3 sockets, maximum load 13 amps.

Or

For 10 sockets maximum load, exactly the same, 13 amps.

The maximum load may well be limited further by what you are allowed at the post, in some cases as low as 4 amp.

But if you are not familiar with these fundamental rules, should you be considering working on them?

John

PS, I think there is a limit to the number of sockets fitted to a spur of a ring. But I cannot remember what that is.

Hi John,

Thank you for the information, much appreciated.

Cheers, Shaun.

 

[ShoonyUK]

John
All the caravans I have had do not use a ring main system . They are all direct spurs. In such a small application a ring main would be a waste and probably erode the payload.

Hi Dusty,

Thank you very much for the additional information.

Cheers, Shaun.

 

[GUMPY]

First thing what make if sockets are in there, presumably you would like them to match ?
if it's the C-line range then its relatively simple

 

[ProfJohnL]

As with the gas systems, there are statutory regulations about how such systems must be installed and tested. I believe the the wiring regulations have changed since I last did any electrical work, so I can't give specific advice other than to seek advice or the services of a qualified fitter.

 

[ShoonyUK]

First thing what make if sockets are in there, presumably you would like them to match ?
if it's the C-line range then its relatively simple

Hi Loddon, thank you for getting back to me. TBH, I'm not sure what they are, or how to tell whether the sockets are C-Line range or any other range. The only thing I know for sure at the moment (as the caravan is stored away from the house, and this information probably won't help much anyway) is that the current sockets and their surround plate are beige and have apparently been discontinued by Bailey. I won't be able to take a look at them until the weekend. Cheers, Shaun.

 

[ShoonyUK]

As with the gas systems, there are statutory regulations about how such systems must be installed and tested. I believe the the wiring regulations have changed since I last did any electrical work, so I can't give specific advice other than to seek advice or the services of a qualified fitter.

Hi Prof, thanks for getting back to me. That's fair enough advice, I will check with one of the campsite engineers. Cheers, Shaun.

 

[shouldknowbettor]

You should be able to tell what the sockets are visually. If in doubt take one off and go visit your nearest large caravan parts dealer. They may have matching parts.

Ideally you want a diagram of your electrics, perhaps bailey can supply one, or you can map your own. Ideally you need to know is how many sockets are on each spur and the wire diameter. If for example you have 2 x 2 sockets spurs and a 1 socket spur all on the same flex then it's fairly safe to assume you can go with another socket on the 1. Adding to the twos in this scenario means considering the wire load capacity and what you will run on it. The actual process for changing sockets is relatively straightforward hole drilling and rewiring as long as access is available.

 

[Buckman]

We simply use double adaptors or a multi plug extension. That way the caravan remains original. If you do any permanent modifications to the caravan it is no longer standard and maybe like a motor vehicle you may need to inform the insurer of the caravan.

 

[GUMPY]

Hi Loddon, thank you for getting back to me. TBH, I'm not sure what they are, or how to tell whether the sockets are C-Line range or any other range. The only thing I know for sure at the moment (as the caravan is stored away from the house, and this information probably won't help much anyway) is that the current sockets and their surround plate are beige and have apparently been discontinued by Bailey. I won't be able to take a look at them until the weekend. Cheers, Shaun.

If they are beige then possibly they are Clipsal which are I believe discontinued. There are however stil plenty available on eBay.
Post a picture of the sockets on here, good chance someone will be able to identify them.

 

[Woodentop]

For the record, the rule is that you cannot have more spur sockets off a ring than there are sockets on the ring itself.
I would go with Buckman and just use a multiblock. Cheaper ( have you seen the price of C-sockets??), more flexible, and over all it does not modify the van. Technically you would have to have a certified electrician to fit the sockets for you - caravans have their own special part of the IET Regs with which you must comply. Having said that if you are talking 2008/9 you would be using older Regs which may not be so tight. Domestically the only thing that is retrospective when the Regs are updated is the size of the earth bonging cable.

 

[Jcloughie]

I sorted my USB charging needs by buying a decent charger, mine had 5 outlets, and wiring a spur 13 amp socket mounted on a patrice under the bunk. The charger in my case, was unobtrusively placed in a front corner, and perminantly on from the spur. All charging occured in that corner.

John

 

[Ukdave2002]

In our Swift the wiring to sockets uses 1.5mm twin & Earth, this has a maximum rating of 17A, hence why double sockets are not fitted, in theory you could plug 2 x 13A loads in to a double socket (26A) . In practice , this would trip either the caravan or site breaker. However suppling a double socket with 1.5mm cable would breach wiring reg's, and may make selling the van difficult if it was inspected properly.

Replacing the sockets with single 13A that include USB outlets would be fine, and in this day and age (certainly with my family) USB outlets are in more demand than 13A sockets. This approach means just a simple swap is required rather than having to cut into the vans interior fabric; something that would not be easily reversed if required.

 

[Jcloughie]

In our Swift the wiring to sockets uses 1.5mm twin & Earth, this has a maximum rating of 17A, hence why double sockets are not fitted, in theory you could plug 2 x 13A loads in to a double socket (26A) . In practice , this would trip either the caravan or site breaker. However suppling a double socket with 1.5mm cable would breach wiring reg's, and may make selling the van difficult if it was inspected properly.

Replacing the sockets with single 13A that include USB outlets would be fine, and in this day and age (certainly with my family) USB outlets are in more demand than 13A sockets. This approach means just a simple swap is required rather than having to cut into the vans interior fabric; something that would not be easily reversed if required.

I realise that caravans do not necessarily need to comply with the regs Part P as domestic premises do.

But 1.5 is never suitable for the wiring of sockets. All vans I have had have been wired with 2.5 flex. I imagine this is because it is far faster to install as part of a loom than flat twin and earth.

The principle, (referred to as the diversity factor), is that total consumption is the only critical factor, and this is handled by the protection at the consumer unit and/or the post.

Quote

The diversity factor is the ratio of the sum of the individual maximum demands of the various subdivisions of a system to the maximum demand of the whole system.

1.5 can handle the load. I have a 1.5 hook-up cable. But it would be at its limit, so I only used it in the warmer months. A safety margin is always a sensible idea.



John

 

[Ukdave2002]

I realise that caravans do not necessarily need to comply with the regs Part P as domestic premises do.

But 1.5 is never suitable for the wiring of sockets. All vans I have had have been wired with 2.5 flex. I imagine this is because it is far faster to install as part of a loom than flat twin and earth.

The principle, (referred to as the diversity factor), is that total consumption is the only critical factor, and this is handled by the protection at the consumer unit and/or the post.

Quote

The diversity factor is the ratio of the sum of the individual maximum demands of the various subdivisions of a system to the maximum demand of the whole system.

1.5 can handle the load. I have a 1.5 hook-up cable. But it would be at its limit, so I only used it in the warmer months. A safety margin is always a sensible idea.



John

1.5mm can be used for wiring a socket on a spur in domestic wiring as long as the spur is fused correctly to protect the cable, as most spurs in domestic UK wiring come from a ring protected by 32A RCB's, the spur is protected with a separate fuse.

Radial wiring in van would be acceptable with 1.5mm as long as the RCB (normally 10A) protects the cable.

 

[ProfJohnL]

1.5mm can be used for wiring a socket on a spur in domestic wiring as long as the spur is fused correctly to protect the cable, as most spurs in domestic UK wiring come from a ring protected by 32A RCB's, the spur is protected with a separate fuse.

Radial wiring in van would be acceptable with 1.5mm as long as the RCB (normally 10A) protects the cable.

I suspect you mean MCB's not RCB which normally monitor for current imbalance between L&N

 

[Jcloughie]

1.5mm can be used for wiring a socket on a spur in domestic wiring as long as the spur is fused correctly to protect the cable, as most spurs in domestic UK wiring come from a ring protected by 32A RCB's, the spur is protected with a separate fuse.

Radial wiring in van would be acceptable with 1.5mm as long as the RCB (normally 10A) protects the cable.

View attachment 5654

In my experiance ALL domestic power circuit wiring is completed using 2.5 cable. I think you may be correct to say a spur can be 1.5 if fused. I have never seen this as there is no point, it being cheaper and easier to use 2.5 unfused.

Radial house wiring needs to be 4mm. This is never done as a ring main of 2.5 is cheaper and has other advantages.

Domestic spurs are limited to 1 socket. This can be a double.

The Swift wiring certainly falls short of the above. But they are not constricted by Part P. At one point they have up to 5 outlets all on a 1.5 cable!

It is rated sufficient for the amperage. But without much of a safety margin.

I have never had a Swift. But as I said previously, All my vans have been wired with 2.5 flex.

John

 

[Ukdave2002]

@ Prof yes my bad, I did mean MCB.
@John, I agree 2.5mm would be my preference, I expect that Swift / Sargent use 1.5mm on the basis that the Total maximum current supplied to a Caravan from a site EHU is 16A , which is within the rating of 1.5mm and a single socket can only ever supply 13A because that the maximum sized fuse in the plug.

 

[ShoonyUK]

In our Swift the wiring to sockets uses 1.5mm twin & Earth, this has a maximum rating of 17A, hence why double sockets are not fitted, in theory you could plug 2 x 13A loads in to a double socket (26A) . In practice , this would trip either the caravan or site breaker. However suppling a double socket with 1.5mm cable would breach wiring reg's, and may make selling the van difficult if it was inspected properly.

Replacing the sockets with single 13A that include USB outlets would be fine, and in this day and age (certainly with my family) USB outlets are in more demand than 13A sockets. This approach means just a simple swap is required rather than having to cut into the vans interior fabric; something that would not be easily reversed if required.

Hi UKDave, thank you for the information and advice. I think I'll choose this route. Cheers, Shaun.

 

[ShoonyUK]

I sorted my USB charging needs by buying a decent charger, mine had 5 outlets, and wiring a spur 13 amp socket mounted on a patrice under the bunk. The charger in my case, was unobtrusively placed in a front corner, and perminantly on from the spur. All charging occured in that corner.

John

Hi Jcloughie, thank you for the information and advice. This sounds a good ideatoo. Cheers, Shaun.

 

[ShoonyUK]

For the record, the rule is that you cannot have more spur sockets off a ring than there are sockets on the ring itself.
I would go with Buckman and just use a multiblock. Cheaper ( have you seen the price of C-sockets??), more flexible, and over all it does not modify the van. Technically you would have to have a certified electrician to fit the sockets for you - caravans have their own special part of the IET Regs with which you must comply. Having said that if you are talking 2008/9 you would be using older Regs which may not be so tight. Domestically the only thing that is retrospective when the Regs are updated is the size of the earth bonging cable.

Hi Woodentop, I agree, I like 'cheaper and easier' 😀. Cheers, Shaun.

 

[ShoonyUK]

If they are beige then possibly they are Clipsal which are I believe discontinued. There are however stil plenty available on eBay.
Post a picture of the sockets on here, good chance someone will be able to identify them.

Thank you Loddon, I will take a look. Cheers, Shaun.

 

[ShoonyUK]

We simply use double adaptors or a multi plug extension. That way the caravan remains original. If you do any permanent modifications to the caravan it is no longer standard and maybe like a motor vehicle you may need to inform the insurer of the caravan.

Hi Buckman, I think that is the way to go. Cheers, Shaun.