Hi John.........the amount of information gathered in this one thread is quite staggering.absolutely excellent...this is really what forums are about.....hope the PC editor picks this up.........thankyou Andrew
I work for a medium size dealership in the west midlands. Initially I was a bit concerned that this subject would become a negative dealer bash. However a lot of what has been said is very true.
Dealers are answerable to the buying public, but not enough has been said about the manufacturers roll in providing a good quality product.
I think there is a lot of complacency within the manufacturing sector and where items are out sourced not enough attention to detail.
Other members of this forum have tried to bring problems to the forefront and are often met with skepticism, possibly as a result of the rather conservative nature of owners, witness the resistance to buying foreign, which still persists.
On the whole discussion of this nature is healthy and hopefully more of the trade will get involved. Well done.
Dealers are answerable to the buying public, but not enough has been said about the manufacturers roll in providing a good quality product.
I think there is a lot of complacency within the manufacturing sector and where items are out sourced not enough attention to detail.
Other members of this forum have tried to bring problems to the forefront and are often met with skepticism, possibly as a result of the rather conservative nature of owners, witness the resistance to buying foreign, which still persists.
On the whole discussion of this nature is healthy and hopefully more of the trade will get involved. Well done.
Hello sue thanks for popping your head above the ramparts. It would be quite exciting to have more dealers (anonymously) voicing their true experiences with manufactures and suppliers.
I've posted on this subject several times before. I would like to see something similar to a JD Power survey that the car manufactuers use but for caravan manufactuers. The fact that caravans are made in relatively small numbers is no excuse for poor quality. We often pay as much for our caravans as for our cars and there is no way we would accept the same level of problems in a car as a caravan. Using the dealer as quality control is far more expensive and not as successful for the manufactueres than designing quality in in the first place and using simple quality assurance methods. Toyota is probably not the best exmaple to quote at present but normally their products are of excellent quality. I've worked with them for many years as a supplier and their quality assurance systems are not complicated but work.
Sue, thanks very much for commenting on the thread, I for one would welcome any insights from a dealers point of view.
When I posted the original question I deliberately avoided mentioning any particular manufacturer or dealer as that wouldn't have been fair & might have provoked a defensive response, whereas I was looking for constructive comments, still sadly missing from the manufacturers.
When I posted the original question I deliberately avoided mentioning any particular manufacturer or dealer as that wouldn't have been fair & might have provoked a defensive response, whereas I was looking for constructive comments, still sadly missing from the manufacturers.
Hi Nick....entirely agree..everyone has been very positive with this thread.hopefully more people will come forward as this is a very important issue which is effecting everyone directly and indirectly.perhaps one of the major clubs will comment....regards Andrew
The post headed Gas Danger, seems to be relevant to this thread.
JohnL please could you expand on the way companies audit out sourced components from outside the UK, when the product is sold as made in UK. Thankyou George
JohnL please could you expand on the way companies audit out sourced components from outside the UK, when the product is sold as made in UK. Thankyou George
I don't want to reply on behalf of JohnL, but from my own experience in the car industry, following cost cutting measures in the mid-90's, inspection of goods received virtually ceased and suppliers were required to carry out all necessary quality control measures themselves prior to shipment of components to us. No differentiation was made whether the supplier was local or foreign. Suppliers were only audited prior to receiving a contract. This included an agreed quality control plan.
Two years ago my niece worked for a company that supplied paint to honda. A mistake lead to the spec being below hondas requirements, the management said send it anyway, against my nieces objections.
Honda sent it back, the company lost the order, my niece has been unemployed since.
So Honda do check the paint.
Honda sent it back, the company lost the order, my niece has been unemployed since.
So Honda do check the paint.
no goods in inspection is quite common, thats one of the reason we have iso 9001 and 9002 and in the automotive sector qs9000.
If a supplier has a documented quality system and can provide measures of the quality then in general there is no need to inspect at goods in... its very expensive for a start.
Modern manufacturing methods allow for a very high level of repeatability within specified tolerances and combined with measured standard variations in the manufacturing process through SPC,manufactures can produce a fixed qty of product knowing it will be within tolerance before any resetting or changes to the process are required.
However, random audits will take place both at goods receiving and at the suppliers site.
If a supplier has a documented quality system and can provide measures of the quality then in general there is no need to inspect at goods in... its very expensive for a start.
Modern manufacturing methods allow for a very high level of repeatability within specified tolerances and combined with measured standard variations in the manufacturing process through SPC,manufactures can produce a fixed qty of product knowing it will be within tolerance before any resetting or changes to the process are required.
However, random audits will take place both at goods receiving and at the suppliers site.
Hello George
Thanks to Lutz, Ray and Phil for briefly explaining the arrangement for suppliers to a manufacture.
You have posed a number of questions in your short posting so lets separate them out.
The Phrase "made in the UK" can simply mean that the whole product was assembled in the UK, and the parts may have different origins. There are alternative views on this, and manufactures will choose the one that best fits their marketing needs. It Is not unusual to find a foreign sourced component in a UK made product.
The arrangements the caravan manufacture has to audit suppliers will depend on the policies of the manufacture involved., and the value, Qty, complexity and criticality of the product to be purchased.
At one extreme a manufacture will simply buy from a catalogue, because the product is low value and has no safety critical implications, and it claimed to meet recognised standards (e.g wood screws and other common fixings to ISO and BS standards).
At the other extreme a caravan manufacture will involve a supplier at the design & development stage of a new caravan.. Using the supplier's expertise at this stage can reduce the possibility that a design will have faults or fail prematurely in the life of the product.
Ultimately, the caravan manufacture may send a delegation to audit the supplier and their methods and produce an assessment of the suppliers capability. Their findings will form part of a complex deal, which will include specific criteria that both parties agree to meet. An example of this would be a supplier of moulded panels.
To slightly foreshorten this last process, many companies now try to become accredited with ISO9001. This is an international standard that assesses organisations for concurrence with a management model that has been agreed by the standards agencies to represent an effective organisation. It is not specifically a quality standard, but organisations that are accredited are said to have a management systems that promotes a quality ethic that filters down to enhance the products and services they provide.
The adoption of the ISO 9001(and other similar management models) gives a third party view about a business and thus builds confidence about suppliers. But for some products a supplier audit may still be required.
As a result there is little relevance these days to the location of a supplier whether it is in the UK or not. The procurement process will be much the same regardless of wherever the supplier is based. This is much easier these days with the vast array of communication and data exchange systems and cheap air fares.
The Gas Danger thread is only related in so far that a faulty repair was not detected before it got to the customer. There is no excuse and it should not have happened. But the causes and circumstances are rather different issues to the way caravan manufacturers operate.
Thanks to Lutz, Ray and Phil for briefly explaining the arrangement for suppliers to a manufacture.
You have posed a number of questions in your short posting so lets separate them out.
The Phrase "made in the UK" can simply mean that the whole product was assembled in the UK, and the parts may have different origins. There are alternative views on this, and manufactures will choose the one that best fits their marketing needs. It Is not unusual to find a foreign sourced component in a UK made product.
The arrangements the caravan manufacture has to audit suppliers will depend on the policies of the manufacture involved., and the value, Qty, complexity and criticality of the product to be purchased.
At one extreme a manufacture will simply buy from a catalogue, because the product is low value and has no safety critical implications, and it claimed to meet recognised standards (e.g wood screws and other common fixings to ISO and BS standards).
At the other extreme a caravan manufacture will involve a supplier at the design & development stage of a new caravan.. Using the supplier's expertise at this stage can reduce the possibility that a design will have faults or fail prematurely in the life of the product.
Ultimately, the caravan manufacture may send a delegation to audit the supplier and their methods and produce an assessment of the suppliers capability. Their findings will form part of a complex deal, which will include specific criteria that both parties agree to meet. An example of this would be a supplier of moulded panels.
To slightly foreshorten this last process, many companies now try to become accredited with ISO9001. This is an international standard that assesses organisations for concurrence with a management model that has been agreed by the standards agencies to represent an effective organisation. It is not specifically a quality standard, but organisations that are accredited are said to have a management systems that promotes a quality ethic that filters down to enhance the products and services they provide.
The adoption of the ISO 9001(and other similar management models) gives a third party view about a business and thus builds confidence about suppliers. But for some products a supplier audit may still be required.
As a result there is little relevance these days to the location of a supplier whether it is in the UK or not. The procurement process will be much the same regardless of wherever the supplier is based. This is much easier these days with the vast array of communication and data exchange systems and cheap air fares.
The Gas Danger thread is only related in so far that a faulty repair was not detected before it got to the customer. There is no excuse and it should not have happened. But the causes and circumstances are rather different issues to the way caravan manufacturers operate.
One can only underline the fact that in these days of globalisation, manufacturers, especially larger ones, do not differentiate between local and foreign suppliers and claims like "made in the UK" have little significance, as even then many components are sourced abroad. At best one can only interpret from such a statement that the product was assembled in the UK. Furthermore, even if the component suppliers are local, there is no guarantee that their tier 2 suppliers are not somewhere else overseas.
supermarkets do the same . when the packet says " produced in the Uk" it will have been packaged in the Uk but the contents could easily have come from anywhere on the planet.
Produced means " assembled and packaged in the UK"
Produced means " assembled and packaged in the UK"
Totally agree about the real meanings of what is stated on packaging. My personal 'favourite' is the practice of stating aqua on the list of ingredients instead of water. I would never have bought that shampoo if I had realised is was mainly water!
Thankyou to Lut,Ray,Phil and John, John your reply was extremely detailed,thankyou. Does anyone know if uk Carvan/motorhome manufacturers work to series ISO. I had a quick check round and can't find any mention.
Sorry to bring in the Gas problem, as I wondered if the dealers are working to any set quality standard other than uk gas regulations and couldn't understand how this actual incident could have come about, especially as the unit should have been tested once fitted. A near do by the sound of it. Thankyou George
Sorry to bring in the Gas problem, as I wondered if the dealers are working to any set quality standard other than uk gas regulations and couldn't understand how this actual incident could have come about, especially as the unit should have been tested once fitted. A near do by the sound of it. Thankyou George
Hello George,
Its good question, I do not know how many if any of the caravan manufacturers are accredited to the ISO 9000 series of standards, Most businesses like to shout about it as it is quite a feather in the cap. However the absence of accreditation does not mean you can assume they do not use a another business model which might be equally valid.
Equally just because you have accreditation to one of the recognised business models, it does not automatically mean that your products are better than your competitors. One of the criticisms levelled against BS 5750 (a forerunner to ISO 9000) was that it tried to keep thing consistent. so if it was already bad it stayed just as bad. One of core tenants of ISO9000 is its requirement for evidence of continual improvement.
One aspects of working to standards that is often forgotten is that a standard is the minimum required for compliance, there is usually considerable scope to go further than the standard requires, but that is a commercial decision as going further often costs more, for little benefit, and it may make you less competitive than your rivals.
As for the caravan dealer in the gas incident, as a business by law they are required to conform to the gas regulations, but even with that requirement, an unsafe gas system escaped their clutches.
The regulations themselves do not prevent unsafe situations, but they clearly layout what should be done and if followed there is a very minimal risk of an unsafe system occurring. Without the benefit of seeing any official reports or evidence, one is left to assume that the proper working practices were not followed.
The blame lies on the last person who interfered with the system. - the difficulty can be proving who last did anything, it is possible the owner may have tampered with it after the fitter finished. - there is no way of legislating for that..
PS
No reference to ISO 900* on Swift or Bailey sites
Explorer group have been accredited against ISO 9000.2000, see
http://www.elddis.co.uk/search.html
Its good question, I do not know how many if any of the caravan manufacturers are accredited to the ISO 9000 series of standards, Most businesses like to shout about it as it is quite a feather in the cap. However the absence of accreditation does not mean you can assume they do not use a another business model which might be equally valid.
Equally just because you have accreditation to one of the recognised business models, it does not automatically mean that your products are better than your competitors. One of the criticisms levelled against BS 5750 (a forerunner to ISO 9000) was that it tried to keep thing consistent. so if it was already bad it stayed just as bad. One of core tenants of ISO9000 is its requirement for evidence of continual improvement.
One aspects of working to standards that is often forgotten is that a standard is the minimum required for compliance, there is usually considerable scope to go further than the standard requires, but that is a commercial decision as going further often costs more, for little benefit, and it may make you less competitive than your rivals.
As for the caravan dealer in the gas incident, as a business by law they are required to conform to the gas regulations, but even with that requirement, an unsafe gas system escaped their clutches.
The regulations themselves do not prevent unsafe situations, but they clearly layout what should be done and if followed there is a very minimal risk of an unsafe system occurring. Without the benefit of seeing any official reports or evidence, one is left to assume that the proper working practices were not followed.
The blame lies on the last person who interfered with the system. - the difficulty can be proving who last did anything, it is possible the owner may have tampered with it after the fitter finished. - there is no way of legislating for that..
PS
No reference to ISO 900* on Swift or Bailey sites
Explorer group have been accredited against ISO 9000.2000, see
http://www.elddis.co.uk/search.html
John L is bang on but one thing to remember about the iso systems is that it is primarily a documentation system.
That is the company documents its procedures then continues to monitor (audit) the procedures as laid down in the documentation.
It only offers a level of repeatable quality ,with the standard of that quality written in the documentation.
For example,if i were to produce a bumper protector the documentation would detail the procedure for making that part,from booking in the raw material,processing the material to a machine( usually a laser) and then all the way to delivery. If for instance part of the procedure was to hit the finished part with a 1lb ball pein hammer to produce a dent of a certain size in a set position then this would be documented. As long as the process takes place then part has passed the quality system.If the dent was not there then the part would have failed and would be returned for re work or scrap.
We would not buy a part damaged in this way, but it would have been supplied to the ISO procedure and is therefore of a suitable quality.
The example is extreme but hopefully that gives you the idea.
That is the company documents its procedures then continues to monitor (audit) the procedures as laid down in the documentation.
It only offers a level of repeatable quality ,with the standard of that quality written in the documentation.
For example,if i were to produce a bumper protector the documentation would detail the procedure for making that part,from booking in the raw material,processing the material to a machine( usually a laser) and then all the way to delivery. If for instance part of the procedure was to hit the finished part with a 1lb ball pein hammer to produce a dent of a certain size in a set position then this would be documented. As long as the process takes place then part has passed the quality system.If the dent was not there then the part would have failed and would be returned for re work or scrap.
We would not buy a part damaged in this way, but it would have been supplied to the ISO procedure and is therefore of a suitable quality.
The example is extreme but hopefully that gives you the idea.
hello again..........following on from many comments made....If a component is found to be faulty and a safety recall is made..as in the recent car industry problems....does the modification need to conform to the original specification.
regards Andrew
regards Andrew
Hello Andrew,
The difficulty in giving a definitive answer to your question is that each time a serious or repeating fault occurs it needs to be investigated, and there could be many different or even multiple root causes for the fault arising.
The error may be in:
Market research
Design concept
Proof of principal
Design specification
Product development
Type approval testing
Production engineering
Procurement/ Stock control
Process control
Inspection and testing
Product handling & storage
Delivery
Application
Fitting/installation
User operation
A product recall means that there have been some significant failings in one or more of the stages above. It does not necessarily mean there is fault with the specification, though the product may not come up to specification for some reason.
I must also point out that a product safety recall may be made for reasons other than physical failure, and as such a modification may not even be necessary.
The difficulty in giving a definitive answer to your question is that each time a serious or repeating fault occurs it needs to be investigated, and there could be many different or even multiple root causes for the fault arising.
The error may be in:
Market research
Design concept
Proof of principal
Design specification
Product development
Type approval testing
Production engineering
Procurement/ Stock control
Process control
Inspection and testing
Product handling & storage
Delivery
Application
Fitting/installation
User operation
A product recall means that there have been some significant failings in one or more of the stages above. It does not necessarily mean there is fault with the specification, though the product may not come up to specification for some reason.
I must also point out that a product safety recall may be made for reasons other than physical failure, and as such a modification may not even be necessary.
Thankyou to John
This particular thread has produced an incredible amount of information on Quality Procedures and as such is starting to become an important resource.
Nicks original discussion proposal, really gives an insight into the difficulties faced by the average caravan/motorhome owner when faced with a quality issue.
I hadn't realized that some of the moderators worked in this field...a Thread by Read Caravans posted in the General Forum on the 28th April, goes a long way to explain the different organizations with relevance to Quality issues and standards within the manufacture and service industry.
They are the.... AWS Approved Workshop Scheme
NCC National Caravan Council
MCEA Mobile Caravan Engineers Association
I'm not sure if any of these organizations are ISO audited or evaluated.
Read Caravans.. seems to be one of the few dealers who participate in this forum and appear pro-active on a number of issues. I only wish others would come forward, after all the more information that we have on this subject, the better the understanding of the problems facing the industry.
This particular thread has produced an incredible amount of information on Quality Procedures and as such is starting to become an important resource.
Nicks original discussion proposal, really gives an insight into the difficulties faced by the average caravan/motorhome owner when faced with a quality issue.
I hadn't realized that some of the moderators worked in this field...a Thread by Read Caravans posted in the General Forum on the 28th April, goes a long way to explain the different organizations with relevance to Quality issues and standards within the manufacture and service industry.
They are the.... AWS Approved Workshop Scheme
NCC National Caravan Council
MCEA Mobile Caravan Engineers Association
I'm not sure if any of these organizations are ISO audited or evaluated.
Read Caravans.. seems to be one of the few dealers who participate in this forum and appear pro-active on a number of issues. I only wish others would come forward, after all the more information that we have on this subject, the better the understanding of the problems facing the industry.
Hello again Andrew,
There has been some insight given on how some companies may operate in relation to quality matters, but the most important word in this sentence is SOME.
As Phil points out, a companies quality assurance system is generated by the company its self, and as such it is highly unlikely that two organisations quality systems will be the same. You may then ask well how can they be both accredited with ISO 9001 etc. The answer is not black and white.
ISO 9001 is a 'model standard' It says that a good organisation will address eight key principals:
Customer focused organisation
Leadership
Involvement of People
Process approach
System approach to management
Continual improvement
Factual approach to decision making
Mutually beneficial supplier relationships.
The standard does not specify exactly how to achieve it, but it asks the organisation to provide convincing evidence that these matters are addressed within the managements control documentation. So the ultimate decision on whether the awarding body accredits or not is down to a balanced decision looking at the whole, rather than just the sum of the parts.
Unlike an MOT, the accreditation is not just a 'snap-shot' of the moment, it looks for evidence of a sustained approach to the issues, and strong leadership that will continue the process onwards. ISO 9000 thinking has to be a dynamic and living ethos within an organisation.
After the initial accreditation, the surveillance team sets out a schedule of visits. These look again at various parts of the organisation, and over the full accreditation period the whole of the organisation will have been revisited and reviewed a number of times.
Inevitably most companies incur some non-conformances during a review. These will be either minor or major. Minor issues can often be addressed quickly and easily, and will simply be re checked at the next visit, but multiple minors or a major will require an action plan to be put in place within an agreed time scale, and may incur extra surveillance visits.
ISO9000 takes and shares many of its ideas from different models; military, aerospace and automotive disciplines. It has to be a very flexible as it can be applied to virtually any type of organisation - not just manufacturing. It has been used in education, solicitors, financial management, construction, manufacturing, and charities. It is part of a suite of model standards that are being rolled out including environmental issues (ISO14000).
There are plenty of books available on the subject.
There has been some insight given on how some companies may operate in relation to quality matters, but the most important word in this sentence is SOME.
As Phil points out, a companies quality assurance system is generated by the company its self, and as such it is highly unlikely that two organisations quality systems will be the same. You may then ask well how can they be both accredited with ISO 9001 etc. The answer is not black and white.
ISO 9001 is a 'model standard' It says that a good organisation will address eight key principals:
Customer focused organisation
Leadership
Involvement of People
Process approach
System approach to management
Continual improvement
Factual approach to decision making
Mutually beneficial supplier relationships.
The standard does not specify exactly how to achieve it, but it asks the organisation to provide convincing evidence that these matters are addressed within the managements control documentation. So the ultimate decision on whether the awarding body accredits or not is down to a balanced decision looking at the whole, rather than just the sum of the parts.
Unlike an MOT, the accreditation is not just a 'snap-shot' of the moment, it looks for evidence of a sustained approach to the issues, and strong leadership that will continue the process onwards. ISO 9000 thinking has to be a dynamic and living ethos within an organisation.
After the initial accreditation, the surveillance team sets out a schedule of visits. These look again at various parts of the organisation, and over the full accreditation period the whole of the organisation will have been revisited and reviewed a number of times.
Inevitably most companies incur some non-conformances during a review. These will be either minor or major. Minor issues can often be addressed quickly and easily, and will simply be re checked at the next visit, but multiple minors or a major will require an action plan to be put in place within an agreed time scale, and may incur extra surveillance visits.
ISO9000 takes and shares many of its ideas from different models; military, aerospace and automotive disciplines. It has to be a very flexible as it can be applied to virtually any type of organisation - not just manufacturing. It has been used in education, solicitors, financial management, construction, manufacturing, and charities. It is part of a suite of model standards that are being rolled out including environmental issues (ISO14000).
There are plenty of books available on the subject.
I would guess from the silence from the manufacturers & dealers that they aren't ISO 9000/9001 accredited.
I would also surmise that their silence is indicative of the contempt they show their customers.
I would also surmise that their silence is indicative of the contempt they show their customers.
Hi Nick,
As others have mentioned in this excellent thread, it appears the trade does not get involved in these forums. Read Caravans has commented on a few items, as has an anonymous dealer in the midlands, but on the whole, it seems they feel safer to not to participate.
I am not entirely surprised, given the degree of sponsorship, dealers and manufacturers give to the magazines and Caravan Clubs.
As a CC member, I have contacted them many times, through letters to the editor, on quality issues and their reply has always been that they will keep it on file, never published.
I think one of the major hurdles is the fact that Camping is generally an enthusiast lead activity, somehow the adversity seems to be part and parcel.
Owning certain types of van attracts a form of club within a club, a bit like owning an old British Motorcycle. For some reason and I don't know why owners are prepared to put up with the faults, I mean who in their right mind would by a Volkswagen Camper or a Landrover, but people do and they love all the hassle. I have a friend who owns both types of vehicle and travels to Italy every year. He hasn't made one trip without a breakdown, got to be totally mad!
I think your opening statement hit the nail on the head, the only thing you didn't mention was the fact that owners appear to enjoy finding the faults and trying to put them right, only in Britain!!!!!!!!
As others have mentioned in this excellent thread, it appears the trade does not get involved in these forums. Read Caravans has commented on a few items, as has an anonymous dealer in the midlands, but on the whole, it seems they feel safer to not to participate.
I am not entirely surprised, given the degree of sponsorship, dealers and manufacturers give to the magazines and Caravan Clubs.
As a CC member, I have contacted them many times, through letters to the editor, on quality issues and their reply has always been that they will keep it on file, never published.
I think one of the major hurdles is the fact that Camping is generally an enthusiast lead activity, somehow the adversity seems to be part and parcel.
Owning certain types of van attracts a form of club within a club, a bit like owning an old British Motorcycle. For some reason and I don't know why owners are prepared to put up with the faults, I mean who in their right mind would by a Volkswagen Camper or a Landrover, but people do and they love all the hassle. I have a friend who owns both types of vehicle and travels to Italy every year. He hasn't made one trip without a breakdown, got to be totally mad!
I think your opening statement hit the nail on the head, the only thing you didn't mention was the fact that owners appear to enjoy finding the faults and trying to put them right, only in Britain!!!!!!!!
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