vin plate (weights)

[ProfJohnL]

Well Steve,

I have understood what you have written, but I wouldn't like to test its standing in law.

The fall out from your from your posting is that it calls into question the reliability and authority of vehicle Type approvals.

That opens a massivs can of worms.

I think I'll stay pragmatic and just stick to the stamped limits.

 

[Lutz]

John, as so very often, I'm with you 100%.

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Hi John L , Lutz,

I understand your sentiments. In the UK we have very detailed regulations which state how a vehicle must be constructed etc, however the legislation used to enforce such regulations is unfortunately not as detailed therefore there are some requirments which a vehicle must comply with but there is no exact penalty or legal recourse if it doesn't. The weights shown on a vin plate is just one example and the authorities have to rely on general catch all offences such as dangerous condition or unsuitable use with all the evidential burden they require, to bring any prosecution.In some instances the law is an ass and believe me I know, I have been enforcing them for the past thirty years. I would never encourage anyone to exceed the vin plate weights, after all the vehicle manufacturers know what the vehicle's design limits are. But however my aim was to enlighten the forum readers and perhaps point them in the right direction if they encounter an over zealous boy in blue.

 

[Lutz]

I appreciate that an outfit could be deemed dangerous even though it is within specified weight limits if the payload is not distributed or secured properly. However, I would fight tooth and nail if that were not the case, the VIN weight specs observed and yet some overzealous boy in blue considers my outfit to be unsafe just by looking at it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am simply quite amazed at this.

Whilst the regulation's may be uncertain, there is probably case law that sets a precedent somewhere, or perhaps that's what has caused the uncertainty.

In the absence of any clarification about the validity of the VIN plate data, or on how to interpret or convert the data to a legally enforceable set of limits, It is not within the capability of the majority of motorists to be able to carry out an authoritative assessment of an individual vehicles characteristics to establish real weight limits. I think it is prudent and sensible to accept what the manufactures publish.

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Hi John L , Lutz,

Just to further clarify my claim. On the subject of VIN plates Regulation 67 of the Road vehicles (Construction and Use)Regs 1986 states that a wheeled vehicle first used on or after 1/4/80 which is subject to the type approval regs shall be equiped with a plate in a conspicuous and readilly accessible position which shows clearly and indelibly:-

. Vehicle Identification Number (VIN number)

. Name of Manufacturer

.Type approval number- this may be on a seperate plate.

No other detail is legally required any other information such a weights are put there by the manufacturer for guidance. Therefore because they are not legally required these weights are not legally enforcable.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Ah! Stephen.

I accept what you write, that there is no requirement for a manufacturer to include mass limits on the VIN plates fitted to private cars, but that is only valid for a vehicle that has been Type approved.

I do not know for certain but I am confident that part of the type approval process is to establish the mass limits which will form part of the type approval documentation.

Some manufactures are kind enough to include that information on the Vin or some other plate on the motor. So technically the masses shown may not be required but a manufacturer would be on a sticky wicket if the information was inaccurate.

I think that where the information is provided it is a prety safe bet that it can be used by a driver to establish if a vehicle is operating within its limits.

 

[Lutz]

If the weights are not shown on the vehicle I would have thought that it's the owner's responsibility to check these details with his dealer or the vehicle manufacturer before loading the car or towing the caravan. The information given should be the same as the type approved data and consequently what would be on the VIN plate.

Like John says, if the weights shown on the VIN plate are not correct, the manufacturer would be held responsible for giving wrong information likely to compromise safety.

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Hi John L, Lutz,

I understand what you are saying, my point is that any weights shown on the vin plate are not directly enforcable in law.

To exceed these weights is not in itself an offence, however exceeding these weights could be considered an offence of using a vehicle in a dangerous condition. The problem with this offence is that it is difficult for an enforcement to prove in a court of law where the burden of evidence required is substantial.

 

[Lutz]

It seems to be a problem of defintion. What is then the definition of a vehicle in a dangerous condition (with respect to weights)?

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Hi Lutz,

That's the 64 million dollar question. There is no definition in law and it is up to any prosecuting authority to prove that there was a likeliehood of danger to other road users.

If you are talking about a wheel which is just about to fall off then no problem. However if you are talking about exceeding weights on a vin plate which have no legal requirement to be shown and therefore are considered to legally be hearsay evidence and not admisable in court. Basically any case has to rely on the evidence of a witnesses opinion that the condition was likely to cause danger. So unless there has been an accident directly attributable to the loading ,then any case would be hard to prove, and any threshold for considering such action very high. If however the overload was considerable then the tyre ratings could be looked at, if these were exceeded the a case could be brought on that fact.

 

[Lutz]

If the accident is directly attributable to overload, the question is easily answered but what if the accident had another cause and may have happened anyway but the effect was worse due to overload? How would one then apportion the blame without taking into account exactly by how much the vehicle was overloaded?

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Hi Lutz

That my friend would be one for the courts to decide.

Incidently the authorities could bring a charge of using a vehicle in a dangerous condition using a number of observed defects none of which on their own could be considered dangerous but the combination of them would.

 

[Lutz]

Hi Lutz

That my friend would be one for the courts to decide.

Incidently the authorities could bring a charge of using a vehicle in a dangerous condition using a number of observed defects none of which on their own could be considered dangerous but the combination of them would.

But where would the courts get the information from on which they could form a basis for a decision, if they don't recognise the VIN plate data? I agree, other factors regarding loading could also contribute to an unsafe condition, like if the load were not reasonably evenly distributed or not secured properly.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Lutz & Stephen,

We seem to be debating for the sake of debating here. It is very unlikely that we will be able to change the law to bring some clarity to the situation.

I suspect Stephen from the contextual references in your correspondence that you have or are connectd with prosecutions in this field, and as such I give credence to your words.

Sadly the one of the consequences of this discussion is that whilst caravanners and other towers may wish to comply with the law on loading, the goal posts area a moveable target, and dependant on an individuals opinion, rather than a practical and easiliy measurable criteria (i.e. weights force and speed).

The suggestion that the authorities may rely of a conviction for "using a vehicle in a dangerous condition" rather than being over weight, is fraught with difficulties. What criteria would need to be fulfiled to define dangerous?

An outfit that is difficult to control (i.e unstable) at say 50Mph, my be quite easy at 45 is it dangerous?. In this instance the driver may elect not to exceed 45Mph on any road, Is it still dangerous?

What happens when the point of instability occurs at 65Mph (just over the speed limit for a car & caravasn in the UK), Is it dangerous? but the car has the power to pull caravn to 70mph..... and so on....

The definition of Dangerous and how it is applied leaves many potential loopholes. It seems it is fundamentally down to the individual opinion of the detecting officer.

It must also call into question the safety of any conviction overlaoding of caravans. I seem to recall that there have been some cases reported in caravan magazines for exceeding limits even the the notional 85% ratio. I have not seen the relavant article, but my suspicion is that the journalist did not report all the facts.

This is likely to be my last post on this thread, as I cannot see that we can make a differnce by procrastinating any further.

Best regards

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Hi John,

You're right on all counts. I'm off to France on Sunday with the van so you'll no more from me on the subject.

Regards

Steve

 

[Lutz]

Nor from me, although I'm still in the country