Hi, i have a mondeo estate td, the vin plate gives a number of weights as follows:2025kg/3275kg/1050kg/1050kg/, which one is the kerb weight,when i googled it it came up as 1325kg,i am still well within 85% as my van is 650kg unladen and 850kg laden,also if any one knowes the towball weight permited it would be usefull i did read a mondeo saloon is 75kg,steve
vin plate (weights)
- Thread starter stephen_5126639
- Start date
Hello Stephen
Try this web site it tells you all the kerb weights on all the cars http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/kerbweights.htm you should get the info you need good luck .Ian.L
Try this web site it tells you all the kerb weights on all the cars http://www.cuddles.abelgratis.net/kerbweights.htm you should get the info you need good luck .Ian.L
Hi,ian,well i went on that site and my model is not actually stated however the 1.8td saloon is kerb weight 1335=85%=1134kg, the nearest estate i can find is the 2.0 petrol is kerb weight 1547=85%=1314kg,so either way i am well within the 85% rule, mine is a 1.8 td estate but many thanks anyway,steve
Kerbweights are not normally quoted on VIN plates.
I would imagine that 2025kg is the max. permissible gross vehicle weight, 3275kg is the max. permissible gross train weight and 1050kg is the max. permissible front and rear axle loads, respectively.
Any figure quoted for kerbweight, like those on the cuddles.abelgratis site, are purely for guidance only and should not be taken as definitive.
I would imagine that 2025kg is the max. permissible gross vehicle weight, 3275kg is the max. permissible gross train weight and 1050kg is the max. permissible front and rear axle loads, respectively.
Any figure quoted for kerbweight, like those on the cuddles.abelgratis site, are purely for guidance only and should not be taken as definitive.
Hi lutze, well thanks for that,i will try contacting my local ford dealer for actual kerb weights,
Lutz has got the right idea.
3275Kgs is the Gross train weight (vehicle loaded with occupants including the driver plus trailer)
2025Kgs is the gross weight permissable of the car (plus occupants and load)
Therefore, by pure math, you have a trailable weight of 1250Kgs.
I'd forget the 85% ofkerb weight suggestion !! Go with fact.
The figure the boys in blue are worried about is the gross train, so as long as you stay the right side of that your fine.
I tow a van that has a max weight 65Kgs over my cars tow capacity, but by leaving out her ladyships wine and putting the hand bag in the car (ouch!! that was the slap with the hand bag.)and my tinnies, we tow at max gross weight.
3275Kgs is the Gross train weight (vehicle loaded with occupants including the driver plus trailer)
2025Kgs is the gross weight permissable of the car (plus occupants and load)
Therefore, by pure math, you have a trailable weight of 1250Kgs.
I'd forget the 85% ofkerb weight suggestion !! Go with fact.
The figure the boys in blue are worried about is the gross train, so as long as you stay the right side of that your fine.
I tow a van that has a max weight 65Kgs over my cars tow capacity, but by leaving out her ladyships wine and putting the hand bag in the car (ouch!! that was the slap with the hand bag.)and my tinnies, we tow at max gross weight.
Hi to All
I got the log book yesterday for my new car it states under Max permissible mass (exc m/c) 2850 kg
Mass in Service 2265 kg
Technical permissible maximum towable mass of trailer, braked 2800 kg. unbraked 750 kg.
Mass in Service 2265kg = Kerb Weight ie One person + fuel ???
Max permissible mass 2850 kg is the car loaded to maximum ??
Maximum towable mass is the maximum that Toyota say it can tow 2800kg ??.
So our vans MTPLM is 1854kg Does that mean our total gross train weight is 4704 kg or 4.6 tons in old money ??
Thanks val & Frank
I got the log book yesterday for my new car it states under Max permissible mass (exc m/c) 2850 kg
Mass in Service 2265 kg
Technical permissible maximum towable mass of trailer, braked 2800 kg. unbraked 750 kg.
Mass in Service 2265kg = Kerb Weight ie One person + fuel ???
Max permissible mass 2850 kg is the car loaded to maximum ??
Maximum towable mass is the maximum that Toyota say it can tow 2800kg ??.
So our vans MTPLM is 1854kg Does that mean our total gross train weight is 4704 kg or 4.6 tons in old money ??
Thanks val & Frank
The problem is that in the handbooks it will give you all sorts of max permissable towing weights, but don't be fooled by these!!!! or what the salesman says!
The only SAFE way of finding out what your max permissable weight you can tow is.........................
Empty the car of all the parafanalia (junk) you normally carry around....... fill the car with fuel..... go to your nearest public weighbridge......have the car weighed with you (driver only)in it....ask for the weighbribge certificate, which will state the weight of the vehicle as weighed, that is the true unladen weight of your car, (public weighbridges have to be acurate (calibrated) as the police use this as evidence in prosecutions where they suspect a vehicle is overloaded) and that IS THE MAXIMUM weight of a braked trailer (caravan) you can legally tow.......UNLESS the manufacturer states a LOWER MAXIMUM PERMISSABLE WEIGHT of a braked trailer or lower GTW (Gross Train Weight, fully loaded car & trailer).
For example, My Audi A4 2.0 TDi Avant, most of the sites for matching the outfit state that the unladen (kerbside) weight of this car is 1480kg, Audi state 1618kg, public weighbridge weight is 1621kg. But handbook states max permissable braked trailer weight is 1800kg!!!!!!!!
Previous car, Merc A class 1.7 CDi, kerbside weight 1246kg, but max permissable braked trailer weight 1000kg, giving me a payload of just 60kg on the caravan, only one trip with the caravan....what an exprience that was!!!! unstable or what!!!!!needless to say I didnt keep that car long!
GeorgeB
The only SAFE way of finding out what your max permissable weight you can tow is.........................
Empty the car of all the parafanalia (junk) you normally carry around....... fill the car with fuel..... go to your nearest public weighbridge......have the car weighed with you (driver only)in it....ask for the weighbribge certificate, which will state the weight of the vehicle as weighed, that is the true unladen weight of your car, (public weighbridges have to be acurate (calibrated) as the police use this as evidence in prosecutions where they suspect a vehicle is overloaded) and that IS THE MAXIMUM weight of a braked trailer (caravan) you can legally tow.......UNLESS the manufacturer states a LOWER MAXIMUM PERMISSABLE WEIGHT of a braked trailer or lower GTW (Gross Train Weight, fully loaded car & trailer).
For example, My Audi A4 2.0 TDi Avant, most of the sites for matching the outfit state that the unladen (kerbside) weight of this car is 1480kg, Audi state 1618kg, public weighbridge weight is 1621kg. But handbook states max permissable braked trailer weight is 1800kg!!!!!!!!
Previous car, Merc A class 1.7 CDi, kerbside weight 1246kg, but max permissable braked trailer weight 1000kg, giving me a payload of just 60kg on the caravan, only one trip with the caravan....what an exprience that was!!!! unstable or what!!!!!needless to say I didnt keep that car long!
GeorgeB
Hi George,
Thanks for replying, the figures I quoted are from the V5C the offical DVLA document. I would think that is correct ??
Val & Frank
Thanks for replying, the figures I quoted are from the V5C the offical DVLA document. I would think that is correct ??
Val & Frank
I'm afraid you've got it wrong, George. The maximum that he car may legally tow is not the kerbweight but what is stated on the VIN plate (i.e. Gross Train Weight minus Gross Vehicle Weight). This figure should be the same as you should find in the owner's handbook. The maxium towload can therefore, if so specified by the car manufacturer, be greater than the kerbweight, as in the case of your Audi A4 2.0 TDi Avant. Obviously, if the specified maximum permissible towload is less than the kerbweight, then this applies as your limit.
Only if you passed your driving test before the 1st January 1997 may you not tow more than the kerbweight. This is the only legal significance of kerbweight when towing.
Only if you passed your driving test before the 1st January 1997 may you not tow more than the kerbweight. This is the only legal significance of kerbweight when towing.
Final time of trying to understand this weight business
From a plate inside the front door, the following weights are printed, and the weights from the V5C
Toyota V5C
2850 kg 2850kg Max permissible mass
5650 kg 2265kg Mass in Service
1- 1290 kg 2800kg braked trailer
2- 1800 kg 750kg unbraked trailer.
So am I correct in the following
2850kg car fully loaded to maximum ( people + fuel + plus
anything else ).
Braked Trailer ie Caravan maximum 2800kg + 2850kg car max permissible mass (car fully loaded ) = 5650 kg which on the Toyota plate would be maximum gross train weight ??.
The 1-1290kg and the 2-1800kg front and back axel loads ???
So our actual outfit is Caravan MTPLM 1854kg + car fully loaded 2850kg Total 4704KG which by my reckoning is 946kg under the maximum permitted gross train weight ??. Is this correct and is this within the LAW.
Sorry to be so long winded about this I am just trying to fully understand.
Val & Frank
From a plate inside the front door, the following weights are printed, and the weights from the V5C
Toyota V5C
2850 kg 2850kg Max permissible mass
5650 kg 2265kg Mass in Service
1- 1290 kg 2800kg braked trailer
2- 1800 kg 750kg unbraked trailer.
So am I correct in the following
2850kg car fully loaded to maximum ( people + fuel + plus
anything else ).
Braked Trailer ie Caravan maximum 2800kg + 2850kg car max permissible mass (car fully loaded ) = 5650 kg which on the Toyota plate would be maximum gross train weight ??.
The 1-1290kg and the 2-1800kg front and back axel loads ???
So our actual outfit is Caravan MTPLM 1854kg + car fully loaded 2850kg Total 4704KG which by my reckoning is 946kg under the maximum permitted gross train weight ??. Is this correct and is this within the LAW.
Sorry to be so long winded about this I am just trying to fully understand.
Val & Frank
Basically, yes, Frank except that the noseweight of the caravan is treated as part of the 2850kg max. permissible mass of the car and the towload limit is NOT the MTPLM of the caravan but its total axle load. If you car is fully laden right up to its limit, the gross train weight will then be 2850+1854-noseweight (whatever that is), i.e. somewhat less than 4704kg.
As a point of interest, unless your car is a commercial vehicle (a van or a minibus) the weights shown on the VIN plate are the manufacturers recomendation only and have little legal standing.
To exceed these weights is not in itself an offence and the boys in blue would have to prove that the vehicle was being used in a condition likeley to cause danger. I do not wish to encourage anyone to use a vehicle combination in any dangerous condition but would like to clear any misconception held over the information shown on a cars VIN plate.
In addition any modification made to improve a car's suspension, steering or braking system would render the information on the plate worthless.
To exceed these weights is not in itself an offence and the boys in blue would have to prove that the vehicle was being used in a condition likeley to cause danger. I do not wish to encourage anyone to use a vehicle combination in any dangerous condition but would like to clear any misconception held over the information shown on a cars VIN plate.
In addition any modification made to improve a car's suspension, steering or braking system would render the information on the plate worthless.
Frankly, I am surprised by your statement that the data on the VIN plate has no legal standing. What the manufacturers specify is what they consider to be a safe limit and it would be more than unwise not to respect their considered technical opinion. I would think the boys in blue would take the same view.
Besides, I would strongly suspect that if you exceed the limits specified you could, at the very least, loose insurance coverage.
Besides, I would strongly suspect that if you exceed the limits specified you could, at the very least, loose insurance coverage.
Hi Lutz,
As I said i would not encourage anyone to use a vehicle in a dangerous condition and it is likeley that an insurance company would take a dim view of anyone exceeding the weights shown on the VIn plate.
However the weights shown are what the manufacturers consider safe for the vehicle when it left the factory in standard condition, any modification made to the vehicle render those figures worthless. The vin plate on a car has a different legal standing from one found on a van for example, the vans plate is a legal requirement under Regulation 66 of the road Vehicle Construction and use regulations , the axle, gross and train weights shown on this plate are legally enforcable and only superceded on a vehicle over 3,500kg gross by it's type approval or ministry plate.
Incidently I have seen many vin plates fitted to estate cars and 4x4's which give no weight details whatsoever, so what conclusions can we draw from that.
Only last week I saw a new mobile home which had it's manufacturers plate succeeded by a plate made by the converters which exceeded the design weights, it may have had some modifications or it may not have.
I made my posting just to clear some misunderstandings surrounding VIN plates and again reiterate stick to them and you should be okay.
As I said i would not encourage anyone to use a vehicle in a dangerous condition and it is likeley that an insurance company would take a dim view of anyone exceeding the weights shown on the VIn plate.
However the weights shown are what the manufacturers consider safe for the vehicle when it left the factory in standard condition, any modification made to the vehicle render those figures worthless. The vin plate on a car has a different legal standing from one found on a van for example, the vans plate is a legal requirement under Regulation 66 of the road Vehicle Construction and use regulations , the axle, gross and train weights shown on this plate are legally enforcable and only superceded on a vehicle over 3,500kg gross by it's type approval or ministry plate.
Incidently I have seen many vin plates fitted to estate cars and 4x4's which give no weight details whatsoever, so what conclusions can we draw from that.
Only last week I saw a new mobile home which had it's manufacturers plate succeeded by a plate made by the converters which exceeded the design weights, it may have had some modifications or it may not have.
I made my posting just to clear some misunderstandings surrounding VIN plates and again reiterate stick to them and you should be okay.
There is nothing wrong with a specialist vehicle builder to replace the chassis manufacturer's VIN plate with one of his own and with different data but by doing so, the vehicle is no longer a Ford, Renault, Fiat or whatever but the vehicle builder becomes a vehicle manufacturer in his own right and all responsibility for the product is transferred to him.
If a vehicle is type approved, it must have a plate somewhere giving details of Gross Vehicle Weight, Gross Train Weight, etc. I would challenge any policeman who may consider my car or outfit to be unsafe due to overloading just because he thinks it is, without reference to the VIN plate data. Obviously, if any payload is not adequately secured even though it may be within specified weight limits, that is something different.
If a vehicle is type approved, it must have a plate somewhere giving details of Gross Vehicle Weight, Gross Train Weight, etc. I would challenge any policeman who may consider my car or outfit to be unsafe due to overloading just because he thinks it is, without reference to the VIN plate data. Obviously, if any payload is not adequately secured even though it may be within specified weight limits, that is something different.
should it not be if you past your test after 1997 you cant tow more than the kerbweight hope i am right lee
Hello Stephen,
I am very sceptical of your suggestion that it can be alright to exceed the limits provided by a vehicle manufacture on a VIN plate.
As the limits state they are "maximum's", exceeding any of them contravenes the vehicles type approval. In general most normal modifications (higher spec radio wheels leather trim etc) will tend to add mass, so they must be accommodated within the manufactures limits. In some rare cases a reduction of mass may be achieved for some activities, but these don,t compromise the original mass limits.
Any structural modifications may affect the vehicles abilities would need to be assessed by the the appropriate authorities, This would be to establish if the vehicle is road legal.
It would be beyond the capabilities of most individuals to assess the maximum load limits, but it would have to be shown that they comply with the EU requirements for vehicles before a modified VIN plate could be fitted.
I am very sceptical of your suggestion that it can be alright to exceed the limits provided by a vehicle manufacture on a VIN plate.
As the limits state they are "maximum's", exceeding any of them contravenes the vehicles type approval. In general most normal modifications (higher spec radio wheels leather trim etc) will tend to add mass, so they must be accommodated within the manufactures limits. In some rare cases a reduction of mass may be achieved for some activities, but these don,t compromise the original mass limits.
Any structural modifications may affect the vehicles abilities would need to be assessed by the the appropriate authorities, This would be to establish if the vehicle is road legal.
It would be beyond the capabilities of most individuals to assess the maximum load limits, but it would have to be shown that they comply with the EU requirements for vehicles before a modified VIN plate could be fitted.
I know that GM Europe will, in certain cases and subject to other restrictions, issue documentation to allow the VIN plated weights to be exceeded. One example is towing heavier trailers than the spec allows. The regular towload limits are based on EU standards which, amongst other conditions, include starts on a 12% gradient. However, if the owner is satisfied that he will never encounter such a steep gradient during towing use, he may apply for a higher towload for 10% or sometimes 8% gradients. To my knowledge though, Vauxhall does not make this service available to UK customers.
Hi John L,
You may have misunderstood me I have not said it is okay to exceed the weight limits as shown on a vin plate, in fact I have clearly stated that it would be unadvisable to do so. The purpose of my reply to this posting was to clear up some misunderstandings about the weights as shown on a vin plate. My point is that the weight limits shown on a vehicle vin plate has no specific regulation making adherence to that limit a legal requirement. Case law has proved that the weights limits as shown on a vin plate is considered to be hearsay if it were to be tendered in evidence for a prosecution. On the other hand the weight limits as shown on the manufacturers plate as fitted to a commercial vehicle such as a van (in accordance with Reg 66 of the Road Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations) has a specific regulation making it an offence to exceed the weights shown, a similar situation exists for larger commercial vehicles fitted with a type approval or ministry plate.
I apologise if my previous postings appeared to condone overloading vehicles, it was not intended to, it was clearly aimed to clear up some misunderstandings.
You may have misunderstood me I have not said it is okay to exceed the weight limits as shown on a vin plate, in fact I have clearly stated that it would be unadvisable to do so. The purpose of my reply to this posting was to clear up some misunderstandings about the weights as shown on a vin plate. My point is that the weight limits shown on a vehicle vin plate has no specific regulation making adherence to that limit a legal requirement. Case law has proved that the weights limits as shown on a vin plate is considered to be hearsay if it were to be tendered in evidence for a prosecution. On the other hand the weight limits as shown on the manufacturers plate as fitted to a commercial vehicle such as a van (in accordance with Reg 66 of the Road Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations) has a specific regulation making it an offence to exceed the weights shown, a similar situation exists for larger commercial vehicles fitted with a type approval or ministry plate.
I apologise if my previous postings appeared to condone overloading vehicles, it was not intended to, it was clearly aimed to clear up some misunderstandings.
You've still got me a bit there, Stephen. If I understand you correctly, contrary to the situation with commercial vehicles, the data on the VIN plate is not the basis of any law to prevent overloading of private vehicles but it can, indirectly, still be treated as such. If that is the case, what is the law governing loading of private vehicles? Surely, the issue can't be open to interpretation (yes, you must not exceed the plated limits but no, they don't carry any legal weight)?
Hi Lutz,
Yup,Thats right.
Incidentaly I have seen a number of vehicles including Police Volvo estates and Discoverys fitted with vin plates showing no weights.
Yup,Thats right.
Incidentaly I have seen a number of vehicles including Police Volvo estates and Discoverys fitted with vin plates showing no weights.
Hi Lutz,
I forgot to add, as there is no direct offence of exceeding the weights shown on the Vin plate, it would be up to any prosecuting authority to prove an offence of using a vehicle in a condition likeley to cause danger. The weights shown on the vin plate are hearsay so it would need a statement from the vehicle manufacturer to support any prosecution, and believe me vehicle manufacturers do not get involved if they can help it because their evidence is only applicable to the vehicle when it left the factory.
It would be up to the authority to prove the element of danger when bringing any prosecution, so unless the prosecution follows an incident directly related to the weights then the case would be difficult to prove.
I forgot to add, as there is no direct offence of exceeding the weights shown on the Vin plate, it would be up to any prosecuting authority to prove an offence of using a vehicle in a condition likeley to cause danger. The weights shown on the vin plate are hearsay so it would need a statement from the vehicle manufacturer to support any prosecution, and believe me vehicle manufacturers do not get involved if they can help it because their evidence is only applicable to the vehicle when it left the factory.
It would be up to the authority to prove the element of danger when bringing any prosecution, so unless the prosecution follows an incident directly related to the weights then the case would be difficult to prove.
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