Warning: your towbar could invalidate your car insurance

[Buckman]

Big toys for rich boys. He did agree , reliability is not the best, but you have to drive it hard to break. 253. Miles. On the clock.

In my opinion I think that the biggest issue with LRs today is that people buy them as a status symbol, but then cannot afford to service them regularly and they break down. Back in the sixties we used mainly LRs as police vehicles and they were regularly maintained and I cannot recall breakdowns.

There were of course driver errors, like applying the hand brake when the vehicle was still moving and either snapping or twisting the half shaft. The other issue was the gear lever snapping off at the base due to the driver ramming it into gear.

 

[otherclive]

My son did a similar thing for my 50th and as I arrived home from work there was a 7 series BMW in the front. When I got in he claimed he’d bought it for me from the business leasing company. After a nice drive the truth came out. It was his new company car. Thank heavens as no way could I afford to run that car. Neither can he as he stopped work in 2019.

 

[Dustydog]

SiL has just traded her 4 year old Evoque. Had it from new .

Spent a lot of time at the main dealers. It failed its first mot on emissions. A new DPF at £850 was just the start. New brakes, discs and pads , leaky exhaust and a few other things a bill,over £2k Brother not happy. JLR wouldn’t help on anything saying Warranty is only for two years.
On top of that the insurance increased to £900.

She’s now bought a Mini Clubman🙀

 

[AndrewAventura]

SiL has just traded her 4 year old Evoque. Had it from new .

Spent a lot of time at the main dealers. It failed its first mot on emissions. A new DPF at £850 was just the start. New brakes, discs and pads , leaky exhaust and a few other things a bill,over £2k Brother not happy. JLR wouldn’t help on anything saying Warranty is only for two years.
On top of that the insurance increased to £900.

She’s now bought a Mini Clubman🙀

Mini Clubman, and actually all Mini derivatives post 2015, generally come out very well in reliability surveys.

I very much enjoyed mine and it was faultless throughout the 5 years I owned it. So, good choice, and I think she'll enjoy it!

 

[Mr Plodd]

But how is standard fitment defined if factory fitted options are classed as modifications? Some factory fitted options may be mandatory for certain markets, so the customer would never be aware that they aren't standard fitment as far as the manufacturer is concerned. I guess it all depends on how the invoice is written. The one for my car shows a number of items as factory fitted options at no extra cost. Would these be treated as modifications?
Quite often, an upmarket "deluxe" model is nothing more than a base model with a whole host of mandatory factory fitted options.

If the "Deluxe" version of a particular model leaves the factory with extra parts that are standard on the deluxe model then that is not a modification from the standard spec. If you purchase the "standard" version, and then specify that the "extras" fitted to the dekuxe version to "upgrade" your basic mkdel then those additions will be classed as modifications.

 

[Lutz]

If the "Deluxe" version of a particular model leaves the factory with extra parts that are standard on the deluxe model then that is not a modification from the standard spec. If you purchase the "standard" version, and then specify that the "extras" fitted to the dekuxe version to "upgrade" your basic mkdel then those additions will be classed as modifications.

It's all a matter of perspective. The manufacturer may see the "deluxe" model as a base model plus a number of mandatory factory fitted options. It all depends on whether the insurance company views the insured vehicle in the same way or as a "deluxe" model in its own right. It would be so much easier and clearer for the policyholder if he can rely on what was ordered in writing, including any factory options or equipment included in that order and fitted by the dealer prior to delivery, as being insured. It is absurd for the customer to have to decide whether an option that he ordered, such as leather instead of cloth seats for example, is a modification that has to be notified to the insurance company.

 

[Dustydog]

How is it we always end up discussing the realms of fantasy🤪

Many car manufacturers encourage you to build / design lots of different aspects of your new car.
Check Volvo.

Seems to me most Volvos are modifications yet factory built to the customers choice! So what came first ? The Chicken or the Egg
Or in this case the type of seat fabric , paint finish , e connections etc🙀

 

[RogerL]

If the "Deluxe" version of a particular model leaves the factory with extra parts that are standard on the deluxe model then that is not a modification from the standard spec. If you purchase the "standard" version, and then specify that the "extras" fitted to the dekuxe version to "upgrade" your basic mkdel then those additions will be classed as modifications.

A definition that's made complicated by the fact that dealers can order cars from the factory with some options added - and customers may think they're standard - unlike North America the customer never gets to see the detailed paperwork between manufacturer and dealer.

In addition, some models have parts added at the port of entry - are they a modification or not ?

 

[Lutz]

A definition that's made complicated by the fact that dealers can order cars from the factory with some options added - and customers may think they're standard - unlike North America the customer never gets to see the detailed paperwork between manufacturer and dealer.

In addition, some models have parts added at the port of entry - are they a modification or not ?

Maybe one doesn't get the paperwork issued by the manufacturer to the dealer, but surely one does get a copy of the order.

The order for my car, for example, as put together by the dealer, lists the following factory fitted options:

Option code
F0A14--------Metallic paint finish
PAYAT--------Cloth seats, colour anthracite
01CA---------Internal production identification code
01CD---------Brake energy regeneration
0249----------Multifunctional steering wheel
0258----------Runflat tyres
03AC----------Electrically retractable towbar
03AG----------Rear camera
0420 ----------Deep tinted glass
0430-----------Automatic dipping exterior rearview mirrors
0431-----------Automatic dipping interior rearview mirror
0459-----------Power seat with memory function, driver's side
0488-----------Lumbar support, driver and front passenger seats
0494-----------Heated seats, driver and front passenger
04AD----------Interior brightwork in brushed aluminium
0508-----------Park distance control
0522 -----------Xenon headlights
0534-----------Thermostatically controlled air conditioning
0544-----------Cruise control
0606-----------Sat nav
01CC-----------Auto start/stop function
02K8----------18 inch alloy wheels
02VB----------Tyre pressure monitoring system
04NG----------Instrument panel embellishment in high-lustre black
0423-----------Velour floor mats
0428-----------Warning triangle and first aid kit
05A1-----------LED rear fog light
05DA----------Deactivate feature for front passenger airbag
0502 ----------Headlamp washers
0563-----------Light package
06AC ----------Intelligent emergency call function
06AE-----------Teleservices
06NH----------Hands-free telephone facility
08KA----------Oil change interval set at 30000km
0840 ----------Deletion of high speed restriction

Of all the above items, I only specified those in bold. The ones in italics are all mandatory options at no extra cost and over which I had no control. Perhaps someone could tell me which I would have to notify the insurance company?

 

[RogerL]

Maybe one doesn't get the paperwork issued by the manufacturer to the dealer, but surely one does get a copy of the order.

The order for my car, for example, as put together by the dealer, lists the following factory fitted options:

Option code
F0A14--------Metallic paint finish
PAYAT--------Cloth seats, colour anthracite
01CA---------Internal production identification code
01CD---------Brake energy regeneration
0249----------Multifunctional steering wheel
0258----------Runflat tyres
03AC----------Electrically retractable towbar
03AG----------Rear camera
0420 ----------Deep tinted glass
0430-----------Automatic dipping exterior rearview mirrors
0431-----------Automatic dipping interior rearview mirror
0459-----------Power seat with memory function, driver's side
0488-----------Lumbar support, driver and front passenger seats
0494-----------Heated seats, driver and front passenger
04AD----------Interior brightwork in brushed aluminium
0508-----------Park distance control
0522 -----------Xenon headlights
0534-----------Thermostatically controlled air conditioning
0544-----------Cruise control
0606-----------Sat nav
01CC-----------Auto start/stop function
02K8----------18 inch alloy wheels
02VB----------Tyre pressure monitoring system
04NG----------Instrument panel embellishment in high-lustre black
0423-----------Velour floor mats
0428-----------Warning triangle and first aid kit
05A1-----------LED rear fog light
05DA----------Deactivate feature for front passenger airbag
0502 ----------Headlamp washers
0563-----------Light package
06AC ----------Intelligent emergency call function
06AE-----------Teleservices
06NH----------Hands-free telephone facility
08KA----------Oil change interval set at 30000km
0840 ----------Deletion of high speed restriction

Of all the above items, I only specified those in bold. The ones in italics are all mandatory options at no extra cost and over which I had no control. Perhaps someone could tell me which I would have to notify the insurance company?

That sort of list isn't routinely available to buyers of new cars in the UK - although I have the equivalent for my VW Touareg by specifically asking my local dealer to print out the "build sheets" from the VIN number.

In the UK, few private buyers actually place a factory order through their dealer - most new cars are either leased company cars, personal leases or dealer pre-registrations, so it's the leasing company that's the original buyer. Even when private buyers buy a new car, few go through the options list and order extra-cost options like you, and I, did.

 

[otherclive]

That sort of list isn't routinely available to buyers of new cars in the UK - although I have the equivalent for my VW Touareg by specifically asking my local dealer to print out the "build sheets" from the VIN number.

In the UK, few private buyers actually place a factory order through their dealer - most new cars are either leased company cars, personal leases or dealer pre-registrations, so it's the leasing company that's the original buyer. Even when private buyers buy a new car, few go through the options list and order extra-cost options like you, and I, did.

My kids and grandkids must be unusual as they ordered extra options when buying a new car. They tend to compare the specifications of the models in the range and once they have decided on a particular model specification they then look at what options are available as extras. Things like space saver or full size spare wheel, sound system upgrade, winterisation kit and heated steering wheel come to mind. They can’t believe I’ve just bought a car without heated seats and heated steering wheel!!

 

[Lutz]

That sort of list isn't routinely available to buyers of new cars in the UK - although I have the equivalent for my VW Touareg by specifically asking my local dealer to print out the "build sheets" from the VIN number.

In the UK, few private buyers actually place a factory order through their dealer - most new cars are either leased company cars, personal leases or dealer pre-registrations, so it's the leasing company that's the original buyer. Even when private buyers buy a new car, few go through the options list and order extra-cost options like you, and I, did.

If the customer doesn't get a complete copy of everything that's ordered, how can one be sure that the dealer has placed the order correctly? I recall many years ago, my dad ordered a 4-door Cortina, but the dealer put a tick in the wrong box on the order and a 2-door arrived. The dealer offered to reorder, but we were due to go on holiday with the new car only a fortnight later and there wasn't sufficient time. If my dad had had a list, he would have had a chance to check immediately and perhaps the order could have been corrected before the car was built.

 

[Jcloughie]

I feel that if I was insuring a new car I would inform the insurance company of the specification as per order.

ie. Model name and variant also any extras I had ordered either from the manufacturer or the dealer. Also, though very unlikely for me, any subsequent updates I had had made.

After all. All theses things may affect the value and the vehicle and the steal-ability as well as the speed. Therefore the risk for the insurance company.

A concern for me is being fully aware of those details when buying second hand. Perhaps a statement on the proposal to the affect of, ‘to the best of my knowledge’.

John

 

[otherclive]

Aren’t people going around in circles on this thread. Rogers #129 re Consumer Insurance Act seems to me to give good protection to the buyer of the policy in the event of a conflict, providing the buyer has taken reasonable steps to answer questions or provide information to the insurer What surprises me is that this thread sprang from a single case where the FOS sided with the insurer, which I find quite astonishing. What the outcome would have been had the policy holder move to appeal we can only surmise.

 

[Dustydog]

Maybe one doesn't get the paperwork issued by the manufacturer to the dealer, but surely one does get a copy of the order.

The order for my car, for example, as put together by the dealer, lists the following factory fitted options:

Option code
F0A14--------Metallic paint finish
PAYAT--------Cloth seats, colour anthracite
01CA---------Internal production identification code
01CD---------Brake energy regeneration
0249----------Multifunctional steering wheel
0258----------Runflat tyres
03AC----------Electrically retractable towbar
03AG----------Rear camera
0420 ----------Deep tinted glass
0430-----------Automatic dipping exterior rearview mirrors
0431-----------Automatic dipping interior rearview mirror
0459-----------Power seat with memory function, driver's side
0488-----------Lumbar support, driver and front passenger seats
0494-----------Heated seats, driver and front passenger
04AD----------Interior brightwork in brushed aluminium
0508-----------Park distance control
0522 -----------Xenon headlights
0534-----------Thermostatically controlled air conditioning
0544-----------Cruise control
0606-----------Sat nav
01CC-----------Auto start/stop function
02K8----------18 inch alloy wheels
02VB----------Tyre pressure monitoring system
04NG----------Instrument panel embellishment in high-lustre black
0423-----------Velour floor mats
0428-----------Warning triangle and first aid kit
05A1-----------LED rear fog light
05DA----------Deactivate feature for front passenger airbag
0502 ----------Headlamp washers
0563-----------Light package
06AC ----------Intelligent emergency call function
06AE-----------Teleservices
06NH----------Hands-free telephone facility
08KA----------Oil change interval set at 30000km
0840 ----------Deletion of high speed restriction

Of all the above items, I only specified those in bold. The ones in italics are all mandatory options at no extra cost and over which I had no control. Perhaps someone could tell me which I would have to notify the insurance company?

And when you trade it in how will the new purchaser know what to disclose?

 

[Dustydog]

Aren’t people going around in circles on this thread. Rogers #129 re Consumer Insurance Act seems to me to give good protection to the buyer of the policy in the event of a conflict, providing the buyer has taken reasonable steps to answer questions or provide information to the insurer What surprises me is that this thread sprang from a single case where the FOS sided with the insurer, which I find quite astonishing. What the outcome would have been had the policy holder move to appeal we can only surmise.

But Clive it’s even worse than we all think.

The Insurer decided to ignore the FOS ruling even though it was in their favour.

It was the Insurer , Allianz ,who then contradicted the decision and amazingly found in favour of their Insured! No need for an Appeal.👍

 

[otherclive]

But Clive it’s even worse than we all think.

The Insurer decided to ignore the FOS ruling even though it was in their favour.

It was the Insurer , Allianz ,who then contradicted the decision and amazingly found in favour of their Insured! No need for an Appeal.👍

Dusty I know the facts as described. In post #89 I postulated that Allianz may have taken that decision based on the bad publicity of having it all reported in a leading motoring magazine. But the facts are that no one other than Allianz knows why they took the decision that they did. Of course Allianz would not have appealed a FOS decision in their favour, but the motorist could have appealed, but again no one knows what the outcome would have been. So it’s all conjecture. Considering the number of new and pre owned cars purchased each year and insurance claims is it a serious issue? I’m certainly not going to loose any sleep.

 

[otherclive]

I feel that if I was insuring a new car I would inform the insurance company of the specification as per order.

ie. Model name and variant also any extras I had ordered either from the manufacturer or the dealer. Also, though very unlikely for me, any subsequent updates I had had made.

After all. All theses things may affect the value and the vehicle and the steal-ability as well as the speed. Therefore the risk for the insurance company.

A concern for me is being fully aware of those details when buying second hand. Perhaps a statement on the proposal to the affect of, ‘to the best of my knowledge’.

John

For interest how did you declare your Mazda? For my RAV4 I just advised the insurer that to my knowledge it is a standard car to the RAV4 “Design” specification. The revised policy came through within minutes and I annotated it with the details of the phone call and date/time.

 

[Dustydog]

Clive , the whole thing has moved on a long way. As previously reported the FCA are now investigating the FOS decision which as we both know found in Allianz favour, it was a bad decision and Allianz ignored it and amazingly found against themselves.
It kind of made a mockery of the FOS ,hence the FCA involvement.
If I missed your point, apologies

 

[Jcloughie]

For interest how did you declare your Mazda? For my RAV4 I just advised the insurer that to my knowledge it is a standard car to the RAV4 “Design” specification. The revised policy came through within minutes and I annotated it with the details of the phone call and date/time.

I simply declared it is a Mazda CX 5 Takumi auto. Though top of the range, there are a few extras which could have been fitted. But nothing was. The insurance would have known the model and variant from the reg number. Also the colour, which is a £650 option.

I am confident that the declaration is correct and no additions have been installed.

This is the available options.

Build Your Mazda | Car Configurator | Mazda UK

Configure your own Mazda here, choosing from our range and create a car that’s truly yours.

www.mazda.co.uk

Actually, looking at it, strictly speaking, my locking wheel nuts are an extra. (And I did not declare that 😡).

Some of the list seems inconsequential to me. However. Perhaps declaring everything possible might be wise.

From memory, when I have been shopping for insurance. The question regarding options is worded very differently each time. Some seem to make it straight forward.

John

 

[otherclive]

Clive , the whole thing has moved on a long way. As previously reported the FCA are now investigating the FOS decision which as we both know found in Allianz favour, it was a bad decision and Allianz ignored it and amazingly found against themselves.
It kind of made a mockery of the FOS ,hence the FCA involvement.
If I missed your point, apologies

Dusty, That’s precisely my point that the initial decision by FOS was difficult to understand given the facts, but Allianz’s action was also strange given FOS siding with them. Perhaps along with the bad publicity they had notice of a possible FCA investigation and decided to minimise their further exposure.

 

[otherclive]

I simply declared it is a Mazda CX 5 Takumi auto. Though top of the range, there are a few extras which could have been fitted. But nothing was. The insurance would have known the model and variant from the reg number. Also the colour, which is a £650 option.

I am confident that the declaration is correct and no additions have been installed.

This is the available options.

Build Your Mazda | Car Configurator | Mazda UK

Configure your own Mazda here, choosing from our range and create a car that’s truly yours.

www.mazda.co.uk

Actually, looking at it, strictly speaking, my locking wheel nuts are an extra. (And I did not declare that 😡).

Some of the list seems inconsequential to me. However. Perhaps declaring everything possible might be wise.

From memory, when I have been shopping for insurance. The question regarding options is worded very differently each time. Some seem to make it straight forward.

John

That’s pretty well the same outcome as my insurer adopted and just asked me did it have any modifications. The only one I checked prior to purchase was to crawl under to check that a towbar wasn’t fitted, or hadn’t been fitted. Last thing I wanted was an ex tow car 😱

 

[Buckman]

And when you trade it in how will the new purchaser know what to disclose?

As far as the purchaser is concerned the car was standard with towbar etc as it was already fitted and unlikely it was an option.

 

[otherclive]

As far as the purchaser is concerned the car was standard with towbar etc as it was already fitted and unlikely it was an option.

The purchaser never said it was standard. He should have ticked the “ modified” box and declared it.

 

[Buckman]

The purchaser never said it was standard. He should have ticked the “ modified” box and declared it.

A purchaser is someone who purchased a second hand car in the past, in the present or in the future. The thread was not started by a purchaser.